Should Philosophy and/or Politics be taught as a formal subject on the leaving cert?

Foxhound38 · 01-08-2013 10:13AM #1

A good article from Steven Lydon in todays Times calling for the teaching of Philosophy as a formal secondary school subject, or at the very least some form of proper political education component. What do ye think, is this area a gap in our childrens education, or would it be open to abuse if it was strengthened - I remember about 10 years ago teachers extolling the greatness of Irelands "dynamic" economy in Leaving Cert Business class, which turned out later to be utter propaganda and bunkem.

Could be a good idea - critical thinking is something we should definately be teaching children to do, and knowledge of the political system and basic tenets of law is a must I think - but it needs to bedone properly!

shruikan2553 · 01-08-2013 10:26AM

Philosophy would be a good replacement of religion. CSPE is done for the junior cert and is the closest to politics we get. Maybe cut out the crap with learning about the homeless and the travelers and make it less of a joke subject

BeerWolf · 01-08-2013 10:27AM

Ain't that what social studies [CSPE] is in schools... ?

Chancer3001 · 01-08-2013 10:33AM

BeerWolf wrote: »

Ain't that what social studies [CSPE] is in schools... ?

Cspe had a whole chapter on politics. How the government works, elections, different forms if government, the courts, presidents, democracy....

That's plenty

Anita Blow · 01-08-2013 11:04AM

CSPE is in no way adequate political education. The entire subject boils down to "Well first I'd do a poster campaign"

01-08-2013 11:05AM

I'd like to see economics introduced, at an earlier stage.

Christ the Redeemer · 01-08-2013 11:07AM

How about Logic and critical thinking?

Nope. that would make us dangerous to the state.

HurtLocker · 01-08-2013 11:08AM

Anita Blow wrote: »

CSPE is in no way adequate political education. The entire subject boils down to "Well first I'd do a poster campaign"

Couldn't remember CSPE much even though it wasn't that long ago and ive an interest in politics. Your line made me laugh. I remember writing it hundreds of times.

SEPT 23 1989 · 01-08-2013 11:08AM

Let them enjoy their youth rather than burdening them with the horrors of politics and the meaning of their pointless existance

GalwayGuy2 · 01-08-2013 11:10AM

I'd be all for it.

Well, as long as you don't teach them your own political leanings. Hmmm, if that's even possible.

Corvo · 01-08-2013 11:25AM

Politics definitely. I know at the time I probably would have pulled my hair out at it, but it's something I still don't have a grasp on (i.e. I couldn't tell you how the government is made up etc.)

PhlegmyMoses · 01-08-2013 11:30AM

Philosophy, without a doubt. Gives people an insight into different thought processes and the idea that there are myriad other viewpoints that make sense on every subject. Would help to create more rational and dynamic thinkers.

Peregrine · 01-08-2013 11:31AM

BeerWolf wrote: »

Ain't that what social studies [CSPE] is in schools... ?

CSPE is one class a week from 1st to 3rd year and the action project is 60% of your total JC result. Out of the other 40% of the test, only about 10% is politics, constitution, government, EU etc.

Nobody takes anything from it, it's just a chore subject.

Dravokivich · 01-08-2013 11:36AM

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

How about Logic and critical thinking?

Nope. that would make us dangerous to the state.

Logic = Math

Critical Thinking = English Comprehension

If you missed that, you're not doing it right.

Sleepy · 01-08-2013 11:38AM

A year to study Sophie's Choice would make an ideal Philosophy course for Secondary School

Peregrine · 01-08-2013 11:38AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

Logic = Math

Critical Thinking = English Comprehension

If you missed that, you're not doing it right.

That's almost idealistic. You'd be surprised to see how the Leaving Cert is actually taught.

Dravokivich · 01-08-2013 11:44AM

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

That's almost idealistic. You'd be surprised to see how the Leaving Cert is actually taught.

This may come as a shock to you, but I've been there and done that. What stood out as problematic, were issues with the participation of fellow students. If someone doesn't want to learn, they won't.

conorhal · 01-08-2013 11:56AM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Cspe had a whole chapter on politics. How the government works, elections, different forms if government, the courts, presidents, democracy....

That's plenty

Especally considering it consists of little more then ideological indoctrination.

For example, this years question on the EU

This was a question on this years CSPE exam in the Junior Cert:

(e) The European Union (EU) has supported many construction projects in Ireland. Other than
these construction projects describe TWO other advantages of membership of the European
Union for EU citizens.
First Advantage: __________________________________________________ __________
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Second Advantage: __________________________________________________ ________
__________________________________________________ __________

Hardly critical thinking is it? Typically critical thinking requires a positive and a negative?

Peregrine · 01-08-2013 11:59AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

This may come as a shock to you, but I've been there and done that. What stood out as problematic, were issues with the participation of fellow students. If someone doesn't want to learn, they won't.

I never said you didn't but the way it stands now is:

English: Long course about shite nobody cares about that has to be finished before the mocks, learn as many essays off by heart as you can.

Project Maths: It should be finished in 3 years but we don't have 3 years so we'll learn to attempt every question because the paper is marked ridiculously easy.

And that's how most students get through the Leaving Cert. The biggest problem is the system, not the students. But of course there will always be students who don't care but the ones who do want to learn are being let down. The Leaving Cert has become all about cramming in all those chapters before May in 6th year and trying to churn out as many points as you can in June.

Dravokivich · 01-08-2013 12:30PM

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

English: Long course about shite nobody cares about that has to be finished before the mocks, learn as many essays off by heart as you can.

Forget about learning stuff off, comprehension is about;

- Do you understand
- Agree
- Object
- What's your opinion on it

Those are the main elements to critical thought.

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Project Maths: It should be finished in 3 years but we don't have 3 years so we'll learn to attempt every question because the paper is marked ridiculously easy.

Logic is a thought process. How to connect various elements, make sense of them and what you expect to get from them. A basic example is Algebra. Applying the thought process from Algebra is how you do journey planning. There's logic for you there.

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

And that's how most students get through the Leaving Cert. The biggest problem is the system, not the students. But of course there will always be students who don't care but the ones who do want to learn are being let down. The Leaving Cert has become all about cramming in all those chapters before May in 6th year and trying to churn out as many points as you can in June.

Most of'em just thought;

- fúck it, who's got a free gaff next weekend?
- Got any spare smokes
- My bleeding lighter is out of gas

When I was in school. Which is why I referenced the need to be willing to participate.

Grayson · 01-08-2013 12:46PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

Logic = Math

Critical Thinking = English Comprehension

If you missed that, you're not doing it right.

maths isn't logic. It's a form of deductive reasoning, but it barely scratches the surface of logic. There are great benefits to it, but it only employs a little bit of logic.

Dravokivich · 01-08-2013 12:50PM

Grayson wrote: »

maths isn't logic. It's a form of deductive reasoning, but it barely scratches the surface of logic. There are great benefits to it, but it only employs a little bit of logic.

We don't expect people to come out of secondary level schools with doctorates. It aids the basics of logic, third level can expand on it.

Grayson · 01-08-2013 01:01PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

We don't expect people to come out of secondary level schools with doctorates. It aids the basics of logic, third level can expand on it.

maths doesn't aid the basics of logic. maths as a subject by itself is great. there's a reason everyone does it in school. But if you want to teach logic it's best to start with the basics like syllogistic logic and then move on. It's easy to teach the basics of different types of logic and examine the practical applications. Things like problem diagnosis and problem solving. they could learn how to apply different types of logical thinking to different types of problems.
And that isn't doctorate level or even degree level, it's very basic. It could be covered in 10 hours of classes.

Peregrine · 01-08-2013 01:05PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

Forget about learning stuff off, comprehension is about;

- Do you understand
- Agree
- Object
- What's your opinion on it

Those are the main elements to critical thought.

I agree but you have to level with me here. Most students don't understand that and there's no time to teach that properly. At the end of the day, what students want is high points on their LC to get them into the college course they want. If some don't like English, they'l give it the bare minimum attention to just pass it and make up on points elsewhere.

You can't seriously be suggesting that the current English syllabus teaches critical thought and if a student didn't get that, it's their fault for caring more about their college?

Paper 2 is 36 poems, 1 drama, 2 books and a movie, excuse them for trying to get it finished in time rather than lingering on critical thought.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Logic is a thought process. How to connect various elements, make sense of them and what you expect to get from them. A basic example is Algebra. Applying the thought process from Algebra is how you do journey planning. There's logic for you there.

Tell that to the students who's being rushed through a massive project maths syllabus without understanding half of it properly. And in the old maths syllabus was no better, it was simply learned off.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Most of'em just thought;

- fúck it, who's got a free gaff next weekend?
- Got any spare smokes
- My bleeding lighter is out of gas

When I was in school. Which is why I referenced the need to be willing to participate.

Not all students are like that. Some do really care, put hours of work in every week but yet they don't exactly coming out of secondary school with critical thought and a good logic.

The problem goes beyond some students not participating.

Akrasia · 01-08-2013 01:16PM

In Ireland we should have a second level subject called 'How to cheat lie and steal'

Basically skepticism 101 but packaged in a way that's fun and interactive. By pretending to teach the kids how to be assholes, we can protect them from the genuine assholes out there who use these techniques of deception and manipulation against us every day.

Teach people about the tricks scammers use.

Teach them about how we can be manipulated to behave against our own interests.

Teach them about misleading and false claims, and logical fallacies.

It's basically what Richard Wiseman does, he performs illusions to demonstrate how fragile our own perception is and if we're not careful, we can be easily manipulated.

If students were taught how to recognise logical fallacies, how to reason and form coherent arguments then we would go a very long way towards weeding out all the bullsh1t claims of religion, quackery, cults, conspiracy theories and political shenanigans

Chancer3001 · 01-08-2013 01:44PM

People seem to be underestimating the amount of politics taught in CSPE....

how you get elected, make laws, partys, politics around the world, roles of government, of ministers, of courts, or presidents, how quotas work, how decisions are made, a day in the life of politicians, politics throughout history...

I mean what else do you want young teenagers to learn??

I don't see any gaping holes

Grayson · 01-08-2013 01:56PM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I don't see any gaping holes

Speaking of which, has sex ed improved since I was in school (Nearly 20 years ago)

Peregrine · 01-08-2013 01:56PM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

People seem to be underestimating the amount of politics taught in CSPE....

how you get elected, make laws, partys, politics around the world, roles of government, of ministers, of courts, or presidents, how quotas work, how decisions are made, a day in the life of politicians, politics throughout history...

With all do respect..bullshit.

We did nothing in 1st year(She taught us more Irish instead), in 2nd year we did a project and in 3rd year we did more Junior Cert Irish and in April we learned off the faces some leaders and to identify buildings like the White House and Leinster House for the first page on the Junior Cert. The rest of the marks went to the project and common sense.

This is 1 class a week we're talking about, if any.

Go on down to the Junior Cert and Leaving Cert forum and ask them how much about politics and the state they learned in CSPE during the Junior Cert.

Chancer3001 · 01-08-2013 04:55PM

A bad teacher hardly invalidates an entire subject

goose2005 · 01-08-2013 05:06PM

Sleepy wrote: »

A year to study Sophie's Choice would make an ideal Philosophy course for Secondary School

I think you mean Sophie's World!!

ScumLord · 01-08-2013 05:07PM

I think every person in the country should have some sort of qualifications when it comes to politics. That way they have some idea of what's involved should they decide to run for election.

The needs of people are changing. You no longer need to have a databank of information stored in your head, all you need to know is how to find information and assess it for accuracy. Our education system needs to completely overhauled for a digital age.

Should Philosophy and/or Politics be taught as a formal subject on the leaving cert?

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