Abortion debate thread

HurtLocker · 12-07-2013 07:42PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

you ended up with an unusable law they added no extra pro-choice amendments to it,people are still going to travel to the uk.

enjoy the fight you will be fighting for a long time yet.

Not really. Old religous conservatives are just that old. Give it 20 years and they'll be all dead or in their 70's and 80's. Young people are generally pro-choice along with other liberal things such as pro gay marriage. This law will be extended bit by bit. Ireland is no longer a country based on Christian morals. The fact the bill passed with overwhelming public support shows this. The bill tested the water. In a country with no appetite for abortion it wouldn't have had been supported by the public. Party's will respond and change there pro life views.

It's being said the Creighton has a zero chance of being relected in her liberal constituency because she put her conscience ahead of the wishes of the people. It will warn other TDs who decide for the people rather than on behalf of the people.

It's been legislated for. It's legal. The only way it's going to get is more liberal.:D

As a pro choice person I am delighted. We've the foot in the dails door so to speak.

:D

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 08:07PM

HurtLocker wrote: »

Not really. Old religous conservatives are just that old. Give it 20 years and they'll be all dead or in their 70's and 80's. Young people are generally pro-choice along with other liberal things such as pro gay marriage. This law will be extended bit by bit. Ireland is no longer a country based on Christian morals. The fact the bill passed with overwhelming public support shows this. The bill tested the water. In a country with no appetite for abortion it wouldn't have had been supported by the public. Party's will respond and change there pro life views.

It's being said the Creighton has a zero chance of being relected in her liberal constituency because she put her conscience ahead of the wishes of the people. It will warn other TDs who decide for the people rather than on behalf of the people.

It's been legislated for. It's legal. The only way it's going to get is more liberal.:D

As a pro choice person I am delighted. We've the foot in the dails door so to speak. :D

oh 20 years well enjoy the wait.

Martonio · 12-07-2013 08:09PM

Progress always takes time. For once I can actually say that our Government made the right choice this time.

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 08:12PM

Martonio wrote: »

Progress always takes time. For once I can actually say that our Government made the right choice this time.

did they not let you down?? its an incredibly restrictive law,they did just barely enough to appease the EU.

Obliq · 12-07-2013 08:15PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

did they not let you down?? its an incredibly restrictive law,they did just barely enough to appease the EU.

They did exactly as we expected. Next election, guess what will be topical? And voting contingent? Rome wasn't killed in a day.....

tunedout · 12-07-2013 08:17PM

They shud be allowed to abort it if less than 8 months say. Some cut off time

Manach · 12-07-2013 08:18PM

Actually its impetetus was not the EU but the ECHR, a related but at times intertwined body. Their judgements have been tilting to the Pro-Abortion side from what cases I've looked at.

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 08:21PM

well ok we will have this debate again in 20 years.

Benny_Cake · 12-07-2013 08:22PM

HurtLocker wrote: »

Not really. Old religous conservatives are just that old. Give it 20 years and they'll be all dead or in their 70's and 80's. Young people are generally pro-choice along with other liberal things such as pro gay marriage. This law will be extended bit by bit. Ireland is no longer a country based on Christian morals. The fact the bill passed with overwhelming public support shows this. The bill tested the water. In a country with no appetite for abortion it wouldn't have had been supported by the public. Party's will respond and change there pro life views.

It's being said the Creighton has a zero chance of being relected in her liberal constituency because she put her conscience ahead of the wishes of the people. It will warn other TDs who decide for the people rather than on behalf of the people.

It's been legislated for. It's legal. The only way it's going to get is more liberal.:D

As a pro choice person I am delighted. We've the foot in the dails door so to speak. :D

I wouldn't be so sure of making such sweeping assumptions about what older people think vs younger people. Equally there are many Christians who support access to abortion or same sex marriage, or perhaps they hold a liberal opinion on one and a conservative opinion on another. Don't be so quick to pigeon-hole people.

I'll say one thing for Lucinda Creighton, and it's probably the first (and last) positive thing I've ever said about her - she did follow through on what she said she'd do and probably resigned herself to being at best a back-bencher for the rest of her political career. The fact that she probably would have had a successful career ahead of her also shows courage. Compare that to the likes of John O'Mahony, who has been prattling on about his conscience to any reporter who'd listen for the last few weeks and weaseled out at the last minute.

Martonio · 12-07-2013 08:26PM

To be honest it is better than having no law at all regarding abortion. It is a step in the right direction. The legislation is not perfect but it leaves room for improvement. I am pro-choice but I am not happy with the suicide clause and feel that it should have been left out and discussed at a later date.

Obliq · 12-07-2013 08:29PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure of making such sweeping assumptions about what older people think vs younger people. Equally there are many Christians who support access to abortion or same sex marriage, or perhaps they hold a liberal opinion on one and a conservative opinion on another. Don't be so quick to pigeon-hole people.

I'd agree. There are so many Catholics/Christians now who understand that morality is much more of a personal issue than their respective churches would have it.

I'll say one thing for Lucinda Creighton, and it's probably the first (and last) positive thing I've ever said about her - she did follow through on what she said she'd do and probably resigned herself to being at best a back-bencher for the rest of her political career. The fact that she probably would have had a successful career ahead of her also shows courage. Compare that to the likes of John O'Mahony, who has been prattling on about his conscience to any reporter who'd listen for the last few weeks and weaseled out at the last minute.

Can't possibly agree with you here Benny. She has rejected the will of the people that she was elected to represent. It's good enough for her. As for John O'Mahony, there are plenty of weasels but some are more obvious than others.

Obliq · 12-07-2013 08:31PM

Martonio wrote: »

To be honest it is better than having no law at all regarding abortion. It is a step in the right direction. The legislation is not perfect but it leaves room for improvement. I am pro-choice but I am not happy with the suicide clause and feel that it should have been left out and discussed at a later date.

Nobody is happy with it Martonio, but it was all that was put to us in the past and has taken 20 years to be enacted. If this is the only way Ireland can be dragged into debating the present realities for Irish people, then so be it.

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 08:33PM

Obliq wrote: »

Can't possibly agree with you here Benny. She has rejected the will of the people that she was elected to represent. It's good enough for her. As for John O'Mahony, there are plenty of weasels but some are more obvious than others.

she was a hero,she made the ultimate gesture of compassion and empathy.

oh and btw it will be awhile before FG or any other party touches this subject again. the hassle it caused them was unreal and the issue only served to divide the country so id drop that pipe dream now if i were you.

Obliq · 12-07-2013 08:36PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

she was a hero,she made the ultimate gesture of compassion and empathy.

Ah, you do love your martyrs! Don't be too sure about Fine Gael. I have the ear of a particular FG TD who works at EU level to rouse for this. But you wouldn't want to know anything about that, eh?

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 08:43PM

Obliq wrote: »

Ah, you do love your martyrs! Don't be too sure about Fine Gael. I have the ear of a particular FG TD who works at EU level to rouse for this. But you wouldn't want to know anything about that, eh?

im atheist but i respect her guts. and i dont believe empathy and compassion are a purely religious condition do you?

oh you have the ear of a politician...gullible me thinks,very gullible

Delirium · 12-07-2013 08:44PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

she was a hero,she made the ultimate gesture of compassion and empathy.

oh and btw it will be awhile before FG or any other party touches this subject again. the hassle it caused them was unreal and the issue only served to divide the country so id drop that pipe dream now if i were you.

I don't see how her voting to maintain the status quo is a gesture that merits her being labelled a hero. Continuing a situation where we export women who need abortions for valid medical reasons definitely doesn't show much compassion and empathy for those women.

Martonio · 12-07-2013 08:45PM

oh and btw it will be awhile before FG or any other party touches this subject again. the hassle it caused them was unreal and the issue only served to divide the country so id drop that pipe dream now if i were you.

I wouldn't say that it divided the country. It made people re-evaluate their morals and principles regarding this sensitive issue and take a hard look at the pros and cons of such a legislation. The fact is that this is just the beginning. I feel that if this was put to referendum that the results would have not gone in favour of the pro-lifers.

Martonio · 12-07-2013 08:49PM

koth wrote: »

I don't see how her voting to maintain the status quo is a gesture that merits her being labelled a hero. Continuing a situation where we export women who need abortions for valid medical reasons definitely doesn't show much compassion and empathy for those women.

Exactly, the fact that there was no legislation was a major public health issue especially for those do not have the finances to go to the UK for the procedure as you will find women/girls who will go for the hot bath and gin option/punch to the stomach and other unsafe methods to expel the foetus. With this legislation the women of Ireland can be protected and given autonomy over their own bodies.

Benny_Cake · 12-07-2013 08:55PM

Obliq wrote: »

Can't possibly agree with you here Benny. She has rejected the will of the people that she was elected to represent. It's good enough for her. As for John O'Mahony, there are plenty of weasels but some are more obvious than others.

It's not a question of having sympathy for her at all, she knew what she was doing and made her choice. Rejecting the will of those who elected her? I think her views on the issue were well known by those who voted for her (not that abortion was a priority issue for most people in 2007 or 2011).

Obliq · 12-07-2013 09:03PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

im atheist but i respect her guts. and i dont believe empathy and compassion are a purely religious condition do you?

Certainly not. See Koth below for details.

koth wrote: »

I don't see how her voting to maintain the status quo is a gesture that merits her being labelled a hero. Continuing a situation where we export women who need abortions for valid medical reasons definitely doesn't show much compassion and empathy for those women.

oh you have the ear of a politician...gullible me thinks,very gullible

Heh, come back to me when you find out what's going on. There are actually politicians who are working very hard for Ireland's future, not just the future of this government and regardless of who's going to be in the next one. You'd be surprised.

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 09:06PM

Obliq wrote: »

Heh, come back to me when you find out what's going on. There are actually politicians who are working very hard for Ireland's future, not just the future of this government and regardless of who's going to be in the next one. You'd be surprised.

links? proof? or are these as i suspect... just wild baseless claims?

Obliq · 12-07-2013 09:07PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It's not a question of having sympathy for her at all, she knew what she was doing and made her choice. Rejecting the will of those who elected her? I think her views on the issue were well known by those who voted for her (not that abortion was a priority issue for most people in 2007 or 2011).

Fair enough, especially that yes, the words "pro-life" probably didn't have to cross her lips in order to get elected that time.

Obliq · 12-07-2013 09:08PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

links? proof? or are these as i suspect... just wild baseless claims?

Yes, those.

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 09:20PM

Obliq wrote: »

Yes, those.

ah i thought so. :pac:

HurtLocker · 12-07-2013 09:52PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

oh 20 years well enjoy the wait.

I dont like your smart ass replies, it add nothing but to antagonise posters. Currently I am hoping doctors will air on the side of caution when a women presents for abortion on suicidal/mental health grounds. If they get it wrong and the women does commit suicide we will have a new scandal on doctors basically killing another women. It wont be 20 years. Every year conservative voices get weaker. 20 years and most of them will be gone. Next election Labour and Sinn Fein and populist socialist will run with more liberal agendas than we have seen. FF and FG will follow suit because pro choicers are in the majority and are currently very active and easy to please if a government wanted. The next election is in just over 2 years with people fed up of talking about austerity. When you see it took 20 years to legislate for the X case its not that long a wait.

Manach · 12-07-2013 09:54PM

Given Labour handling of the economy, their participation in the next Dail might go the same level as the current Green levels.

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 09:56PM

HurtLocker wrote: »

I dont like your smart ass replies, it add nothing but to antagonise posters. Currently I am hoping doctors will air on the side of caution when a women presents for abortion on suicidal/mental health grounds. If they get it wrong and the women does commit suicide we will have a new scandal on doctors basically killing another women. It wont be 20 years. Every year conservative voices get weaker. 20 years and most of them will be gone. Next election Labour and Sinn Fein and populist socialist will run with more liberal agendas than we have seen. FF and FG will follow suit because pro choicers are in the majority and are currently very active and easy to please if a government wanted. The next election is in just over 2 years with people fed up of talking about austerity. When you see it took 20 years to legislate for the X case its not that long a wait.

pro-choicers active,well if so they are,they no where near as active as pro-life and look at how that ended,the government are done with this,move on.

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 09:58PM

Manach wrote: »

Given Labour handling of the economy, their participation in the next Dail might go the same level as the current Green levels.

the pro-choicers are stabbing themselves in the foot labour pushed this,yet they sing the praises of FG,....not to smart. not one bit smart at all in fact.

lmaopml · 12-07-2013 11:56PM

I haven't read through properly the thread ( it's so long ) apologies - but I'd just like to say that I am more than a little bewildered at those who represent the people who voted them in based on their mandate - and more than a little disappointed that careerism is so apparently widespread among our representatives in parliament - it's cringe worthy to see so few backbones.

I think it's a sad day when the normal everyday people feel their voice is muffled - that they have been sold not only for money to sustain the dream of happiness - but now by the ethics of a few who gained power they willfully ignore why and how they got there to take advantage of a people who are already heavy burdened.

This is no longer a democracy, when voting means, vote 'this' way or you lose your job. Wtf is that all about ? In Ireland?

We're bought and we have been sold over the years, but never more than today.

I will never vote for a party that would ask a person to vote and tell them what way they should or else there are consequences.....

I can't express how vastly I feel let down and sold and duped, I thought it was only a conspiracy theory that people wouldn't be consulted - but really the truth comes on a sunny day when you least expect the unexpected, just like every other truth comes.

The only positive is that these people have shown their actual calibre.

I'm sick that people haven't been consulted here...it's a disgrace.

Zombrex · 13-07-2013 12:19AM

nagirrac wrote: »

On the specific issue of whether a child has the right to demand one of its parents organs, say a kidney, should it need it to survive, then no the parent does not have to grant its own organ.

Except if you are pregnant and except if the organ is your womb.

Let me guess, that is "different"

nagirrac wrote: »

However, society i.e. the state has an obligation to do everything possible to keep that child alive, including taking the child away from its parents if the parents are refusing necessary medical treatment.

The state doesn't do everything that is possible, the state could force the mother or father to provide use of their organs or blood. They don't do that.

Except of course if you are pregnancy. They do do that for pregnant women. Because well pregnant women apparently don't have the same rights as everyone else.

Hypocrisy much?

nagirrac wrote: »

1. Do you believe there should be no restrictions on abortion?

Abortions should only be carried out by trained medical professionals.

nagirrac wrote: »

2. Where did the ethical argument come from that bodily integrity allows for termination of a pregnancy where the fetus is viable and the procedure endangers the life of the fetus?

From the same argument you just used above that justified a mother allowing her child to die by not surrendering her organs to save it.

If you do not believe the State should force a woman or man to give up bodily integrity to save their born child if said child requires the parent's body then you already know the answer to that question.

Why would someone suddenly gain the right to allow their child to die through refusal to consent to invasion of bodiliy integrity simply because the child is born

nagirrac wrote: »

Who was the first to make this ethical argument and when?

No idea, the argument for bodily integrity has been around for thousands of years.

Abortion debate thread

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