Abortion debate thread

nagirrac · 11-07-2013 03:20PM

Zombrex wrote: »

That sounds like nothing but an emotive argument.

Appeal to authority isn't an ethical argument.

No need to get defensive. You claimed the arguments for abortion were not an emotive exception to the regular notions of bodily integrity. I merely asked you to explain that those ethical arguments are.

It is not an appeal to authority, nor is it emotional or defensive (having campaigned against the 1983 amendment in Ireland, I don't think I have much to be defensive about on the subject). I am completely unemotional on the abortion question and approach it solely from an ethical standpoint.

An argument used in Ireland during this debate which I have seen over and over on the A&A forum is that the tide of popular opinion has been moving in the direction of support for abortion where the mothers health and life is at risk. Are you arguing that this is an appeal to authority? It isn't, it is a reflection of a society that is getting educated and informed on a subject.

The trend in opposition to the Judith Thomson argument is the same. The focus of a modern civilized society should be on sexual education, personal responsibility education, easy access (including free if necessary) to contraception, easy access (including free if necessary) to early abortion, and medical decisions on health and life left solely to the patient and her doctor.

The bodily integrity argument to justify terminations that endangers a viable fetus in my view actually work against the above goals. It hinders the ability to get people on board in support of these worthwhile efforts to benefit all of society. I have watched and participated in the abortion debate in the US for a few decades and in many ways it has not moved on at all due to how entrenched both extremes are.

greenpilot · 12-07-2013 08:36AM

So, the bill has been passed. Seems pretty quiet here all of a sudden.

Konvict · 12-07-2013 11:13AM

greenpilot wrote: »

So, the bill has been passed. Seems pretty quiet here all of a sudden.

Very disappointing. Already evident that proponents are calling the legislation "unworkable" due to the prospect of facing a panel of medical professionals, driving women still across to England.

The foot is now in the door. The collective moral conscience of the country will only degrade and allow further liberal expansions to the law.

Abortion is today more acceptable than it was yesterday.

emokin · 12-07-2013 11:23AM

Everyone knew it was going to pass, and it will go further until it's like England. I just pray for their souls. 'My body' is the slogan of hell after all. 'Not yours god, mine'.

Hmph.

Gumbi · 12-07-2013 11:33AM

emokin wrote: »

Everyone knew it was going to pass, and it will go further until it's like England. I just pray for their souls. 'My body' is the slogan of hell after all. 'Not yours god, mine'.

Hmph.

Erm, whose body is it? It's the person's own body. Or are you implying that people can be owned? Don't slavers own people?

emokin · 12-07-2013 11:35AM

Gumbi wrote: »

Erm, whose body is it? It's the person's own body. Or are you implying that people can be owned? Don't slavers own people?

Our body was given to us, it's a gift not something we own. But something we are responsible for. People can keep it forthemselves though, and that leads to total separation from God, it's called hell.

Gumbi · 12-07-2013 11:43AM

emokin wrote: »

Our body was given to us, it's a gift not something we own. But something we are responsible for. People can keep it forthemselves though, and that leads to total separation from God, it's called hell.

So it's not a gifts. Gifts are freely given without strings attached.

maguic24 · 12-07-2013 12:46PM

emokin wrote: »

Our body was given to us, it's a gift not something we own. But something we are responsible for. People can keep it forthemselves though, and that leads to total separation from God, it's called hell.

Any facts to back up your statement? The bible doesn't count.

lazygal · 12-07-2013 01:27PM

emokin wrote: »

Our body was given to us, it's a gift not something we own. But something we are responsible for. People can keep it forthemselves though, and that leads to total separation from God, it's called hell.

Do have any evidence to back up this claim?

I'm in charge of my body, right now I've decided to gestate a foetus in it. Does my deciding to do that offend God, given that according to you its a gift and I shouldn't be tampering with it? What about medical treatment, does God get mad when we interfere with our bodies in that regard?

lazygal · 12-07-2013 01:28PM

Konvict wrote: »

The foot is now in the door. The collective moral conscience of the country will only degrade and allow further liberal expansions to the law.

Abortion is today more acceptable than it was yesterday.

You're dead right, I'm really looking forward to this. Hopefully my daughter won't have to march for reproductive rights like her mother.

Zombrex · 12-07-2013 03:30PM

nagirrac wrote: »

It is not an appeal to authority, nor is it emotional or defensive (having campaigned against the 1983 amendment in Ireland, I don't think I have much to be defensive about on the subject). I am completely unemotional on the abortion question and approach it solely from an ethical standpoint.

An argument used in Ireland during this debate which I have seen over and over on the A&A forum is that the tide of popular opinion has been moving in the direction of support for abortion where the mothers health and life is at risk. Are you arguing that this is an appeal to authority? It isn't, it is a reflection of a society that is getting educated and informed on a subject.

The trend in opposition to the Judith Thomson argument is the same. The focus of a modern civilized society should be on sexual education, personal responsibility education, easy access (including free if necessary) to contraception, easy access (including free if necessary) to early abortion, and medical decisions on health and life left solely to the patient and her doctor.

The bodily integrity argument to justify terminations that endangers a viable fetus in my view actually work against the above goals. It hinders the ability to get people on board in support of these worthwhile efforts to benefit all of society. I have watched and participated in the abortion debate in the US for a few decades and in many ways it has not moved on at all due to how entrenched both extremes are.

You are either not listening or not following the argument.

Do you believe that a person's child has the right to use that person's organs without consent if the child's life requires it? That the State can force a person to surrender bodily integrity for their child if it is considered that without such action the child may die?

Zombrex · 12-07-2013 03:31PM

Gumbi wrote: »

So it's not a gifts. Gifts are freely given without strings attached.

Sounds more like a Blockbuster rental .... wonder what God's T&C are ....

Zombrex · 12-07-2013 03:32PM

emokin wrote: »

Everyone knew it was going to pass, and it will go further until it's like England.

Well at least that will save the hundreds of thousands of Irish women who travel to England for abortions a plane trip.

OldNotWIse · 12-07-2013 03:38PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Well at least that will save the hundreds of thousands of Irish women who travel to England for abortions a plane trip.

yeah but then Ryanair might put their prices up to compensate for the fall in revenue. Some perspective please

nagirrac · 12-07-2013 03:57PM

Zombrex wrote: »

You are either not listening or not following the argument.

Do you believe that a person's child has the right to use that person's organs without consent if the child's life requires it? That the State can force a person to surrender bodily integrity for their child if it is considered that without such action the child may die?

I understand the argument perfectly. I don't agree with the bodily integrity argument if applied to a viable fetus and the absence of a health or life medical issue. The argument you are putting forth has never made its way into legislation anywhere and most likely never will. Not because of emotion, because of ethics. The right to life of a viable fetus is a stronger ethical argument than the right to bodily integrity, in the case of a normal pregnancy. No amount of mudding the waters with famous violinists chained to you or people stealing your kidneys changes that fact.

My turn for a question. When was bodily integrity first proposed as a valid ethical argument for the right to terminate a pregnancy in a manner that endangers the life of a viable fetus?

Zombrex · 12-07-2013 06:02PM

nagirrac wrote: »

My turn for a question.

Er, how about you answer my question first there nagirrac .... And to save space, no you haven't answered it already.

nagirrac · 12-07-2013 06:21PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Er, how about you answer my question first there nagirrac .... And to save space, no you haven't answered it already.

I have consistently answered all of your questions on this and other topics but you seem adverse to answering questions yourself.

On the specific issue of whether a child has the right to demand one of its parents organs, say a kidney, should it need it to survive, then no the parent does not have to grant its own organ. However, society i.e. the state has an obligation to do everything possible to keep that child alive, including taking the child away from its parents if the parents are refusing necessary medical treatment. For example, if a child needs a kidney to survive and the state can provide a kidney due to the altruism of a donor, the parent may object to the procedure on religious grounds or whatever, but the state should take the child away from the parents and ensure it has every opportunity to survive.

So your turn. These questions are also for lazygal who seems to support your position.

1. Do you believe there should be no restrictions on abortion?

2. Where did the ethical argument come from that bodily integrity allows for termination of a pregnancy where the fetus is viable and the procedure endangers the life of the fetus? Who was the first to make this ethical argument and when?

lazygal · 12-07-2013 06:29PM

nagirrac wrote: »

1. Do you believe there should be no restrictions on abortion?

2. Where did the ethical argument come from that bodily integrity allows for termination of a pregnancy where the fetus is viable and the procedure endangers the life of the fetus? Who was the first to make this ethical argument and when?

1. I think there should be some, but not too many restrictions on abortion after 24 weeks. I'm reluctant to place too many restrictions on this though, because having been through the Irish maternity system I know women who've received no scans before 34 weeks, were refused nuchal fold tests etc, so who might learn very late of a problem requiring termination/abortion of pregnancy. For example, I know of one couple who only found out about a serious defect at a 34 week scan to check something else. They had no choice at that stage but to proceed with a pregnancy, not having the option of travel due to health problems. So I don't know how restrictive a regime should be, the less restrictive the better.

2. I couldn't care less about what others think in terms of when life begins and the ethics of pregnancy, as long as it doesn't infringe on my right to make choices about my reproductive system. I'm not interested in limiting the rights of born, sentiment women in the interests of a clump of cells, a foetus, or the 'unborn'. I don't want to be unable to access abortion because some philosopher or religious figure has decreed that there's some nebulous ethical reason for me to be forced to continue a pregnancy against my wishes.

Gumbi · 12-07-2013 06:35PM

That's horrible, lazygal (regarding the couple who had the scan at 34 weeks). I hadn't even considered that these kinds situations happen.

lazygal · 12-07-2013 06:43PM

Gumbi wrote: »

That's horrible, lazygal (regarding the couple who had the scan at 34 weeks). I hadn't even considered that these kinds situations happen.

There's now some maternity services in our 'world class super dooper system' the pro lifers bang on about not offering standard scans at 20 weeks, when you usually expect to get an anomaly scan. That's why the women with fatal foetal abnormalities have to travel for late term abortions - they don't know any sooner there's an issue. I know of women in Cork who's first scan, like the couple I mentioned, was at 34 weeks. No scan before then was offered, and it'll cost you at least 100 euro to have one done privately if you're in the public system. I know women who have children with Down's Syndrome who were asked why they wanted the nuchal fold test (to check for it in a foetus, it has to be done in a specific gestational period) and were flat out refused, they ended up having tests done privately.

Until you are subject to the Irish maternity services, you really have no clue as to what some women have to go through. The system isn't world beating, its as average as many other areas of the health service and it can be the luck of the draw in terms of location, hospital policy and what consultant you're under as to what services you get.

nagirrac · 12-07-2013 06:51PM

lazygal wrote: »

1. I think there should be some, but not too many restrictions on abortion after 24 weeks. I'm reluctant to place too many restrictions on this though, because having been through the Irish maternity system I know women who've received no scans before 34 weeks, were refused nuchal fold tests etc, so who might learn very late of a problem requiring termination/abortion of pregnancy. For example, I know of one couple who only found out about a serious defect at a 34 week scan to check something else. They had no choice at that stage but to proceed with a pregnancy, not having the option of travel due to health problems. So I don't know how restrictive a regime should be, the less restrictive the better.

That's a sad reflection of the health care system in Ireland, as the example you relate is a disgrace. The answer there is affordable, or free if necessary, access to the highest quality health care for everyone.

What restrictions on abortion would you support after 24 weeks?

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 07:00PM

nagirrac wrote: »

That's a sad reflection of the health care system in Ireland, as the example you relate is a disgrace. The answer there is affordable, or free if necessary, access to the highest quality health care for everyone.

What restrictions on abortion would you support after 24 weeks?

pro-choice propaganda we have one of the safest maternity systems in the world and dont bother asking for links its common knowledge and a 2 second google check will confirm this.

Obliq · 12-07-2013 07:09PM

lazygal wrote: »

Until you are subject to the Irish maternity services, you really have no clue as to what some women have to go through. The system isn't world beating, its as average as many other areas of the health service and it can be the luck of the draw in terms of location, hospital policy and what consultant you're under as to what services you get.

eireannBEAR wrote: »

pro-choice propaganda we have one of the safest maternity systems in the world and dont bother asking for links its common knowledge and a 2 second google check will confirm this.

I know who I believe here, having had two children in Limerick. I'm not knocking them, but on my one and only scan for each, I had interns who were so exhausted that one gave out to me for having a pee during my 2 hr. wait (I am an hour away from Limerick) and then apologised as she had been on duty for 38 hours, and the other couldn't speak two words to me. I'm eternally thankful my kids had no problems being born or staying born, but it's no thanks to the Irish HSE - more to the English midwife I brought with me to both births. I know too much about the Irish system to trust them with my life.

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 07:14PM

Obliq wrote: »

I know who I believe here, having had two children in Limerick. I'm not knocking them, but on my one and only scan for each, I had interns who were so exhausted that one gave out to me for having a pee during my 2 hr. wait (I am an hour away from Limerick) and then apologised as she had been on duty for 38 hours, and the other couldn't speak two words to me. I'm eternally thankful my kids had no problems being born or staying born, but it's no thanks to the Irish HSE - more to the English midwife I brought with me to both births. I know too much about the Irish system to trust them with my life.

well your safer here than you would of been in the uk or france,that was your experience with an individual hospital,i can tell you portloaise are on the ball.....maternity care to perfection.

Stark · 12-07-2013 07:14PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

pro-choice propaganda we have one of the safest maternity systems in the world and dont bother asking for links its common knowledge and a 2 second google check will confirm this.

Confirm that maternal deaths are underreported by a factor of 2 when you use the same criteria as the rest of the world?

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=21361
http://www.medicalindependent.ie/1389/maternal_death_%E2%80%93_into_the_great_unknown
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/getting-to-grips-with-maternal-death-rates-1.906

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 07:17PM

Stark wrote: »

Confirm that maternal deaths are underreported by a factor of 2 when you use the same criteria as the rest of the world?

be proud stark. you got your law no need to complain about every aspect of eire.
the maternity care in ireland speaks for itself i dont need to defend it.

Obliq · 12-07-2013 07:21PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

well your safer here than you would of been in the uk or france,that was your experience with an individual hospital,i can tell you portloaise are on the ball.....maternity care to perfection.

Great! Next time, I should travel for 3 hrs to have a baby? I nearly had one of them at a traffic lights as it is. You're clutching at straws here.

eireannBEAR wrote: »

be proud stark. you got your law no need to complain about every aspect of eire.
the maternity care in ireland speaks for itself i dont need to defend it.

We got no law at all that I ever voted for. I'm wanting the next one and this was only the first hurdle before we look for removal of the 8th. BTW, you already are having to defend it.

eireannBEAR · 12-07-2013 07:26PM

Obliq wrote: »

We got no law at all that I ever voted for. I'm wanting the next one and this was only the first hurdle before we look for removal of the 8th. BTW, you already are having to defend it.

you ended up with an unusable law they added no extra pro-choice amendments to it,people are still going to travel to the uk.

enjoy the fight you will be fighting for a long time yet.

Obliq · 12-07-2013 07:32PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

you ended up with unusable law they added no extra amendments to it,people are still going to travel to the uk.

enjoy the fight you will be fighting for a long time yet.

You are under the thumb of this unusable law too. "Ended up with" is hardly the right phrase though - mark my words. And you say "people are still going to travel to the uk" like it's a good thing and a done-deal. NICE morality there :rolleyes:

maguic24 · 12-07-2013 07:34PM

eireannBEAR wrote: »

be proud stark. you got your law no need to complain about every aspect of eire.
the maternity care in ireland speaks for itself i dont need to defend it.

The health service in general in Ireland is an absolute disgrace. I was on a waiting list for 5 years to get my frigging adenoids out when I was a kid. My mam had to eventually go private because I was having such bother with them.
Mullingar General Hospital - once you go, don't intend on coming out if you're over 60. It's absolutely shocking that that hospital is still in operation. I would be tempted going abroad for treatment, given the amount of negative publicity the Irish health care system has received in recent years!

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-ireland-has-the-worst-managed-healthcare-system-in-the-developed-world-810328-Feb2013/

http://www.esri.ie/pdf/JACB_Nolan_Irelands%20Health.pdf

Abortion debate thread

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