Anyone following Paul Kimages' TdF video diary? Mod Warning OP

Mcofferon · 29-06-2013 09:15AM #1

As usual I'm a little late to the party, but here's a link to day 4.
http://www.independent.ie/videos/sport/day-4-paul-kimmages-tour-de-france-diary-29381296.html

You can follow the rest on the Indos sports web page.

Mod Warning - below is a copy of the warning in post 126

OK no more Froome or Sky talk unless Kimmage mentions either in his diary. Any further suggestions of doping by specific riders/teams within this forum can expect appropriate sanctions (and to be clear if I had not been largely AFK for the past few days some "contributions" to this thread would already have been sanctioned

Also no more general doping talk in this thread (again unless it comes up in the diary, but again subject to forum rules on doping

snollup · 29-06-2013 10:20AM

Have been following but the sound quality is so bad I'm not sure how much more I can take.

t'bear · 29-06-2013 10:56AM

I think its terrible

Mcofferon · 29-06-2013 10:58AM

snollup wrote: »

Have been following but the sound quality is so bad I'm not sure how much more I can take.

I know. It's a shame he can't lift audio from one of the TV or radio Journos.

Maybe if he asks nicely?

Jawgap · 29-06-2013 11:14AM

Yes......I expect it be decent car crash television.....

happytramp · 29-06-2013 01:00PM

I think it's a good question he poses regarding EBH. Also the attitude of the team sky press conference just reconfirms why I find them so irritating. "Yes you can ask any question you want...... as long as it exalts the unquestionable magnificence of the dark blue sky god's"

dastardly00 · 29-06-2013 02:25PM

Yeah the sound quality is awful.

There wasn't much going on during the first 3 days of the diary, but I thought Day 4 was pretty good.
It's worth watching each day I think.

endacl · 29-06-2013 06:05PM

Hey was on Newstalk earlier commenting on today's clusterfcuk. His proposed documentary on this year's tour is looking touch-and-go after the theft of three Macs from his vehicle. So, if anybody's feeling generous, and really wants to see his documentary.....

MungoMan · 01-07-2013 12:39AM

http://www.independent.ie/videos/sport/day-4-paul-kimmages-tour-de-france-diary-29381296.html

someone explain this to me...........its probably obvious to everyone else

so Kimmage was talking about the Norweigan rider, who showed massive promise a few years ago, and looked like someone who could progress into something special

and Froome, 3 years ago had yet to show serious form

And now Froome is better than than the Norweigan guy.

Why was this a question worth asking ?

bwcallaghan · 01-07-2013 01:28AM

Anywhere online that you can view the Sunday Indo pieces that Kimmage has been doing , also is David Walsh doing a regular piece on his embedment in the Sky camp or is it just a wrap up at the conclusion (which is the impression I get)

nak · 01-07-2013 08:01AM

MungoMan wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/videos/sport/day-4-paul-kimmages-tour-de-france-diary-29381296.html

someone explain this to me...........its probably obvious to everyone else

so Kimmage was talking about the Norweigan rider, who showed massive promise a few years ago, and looked like someone who could progress into something special

and Froome, 3 years ago had yet to show serious form

And now Froome is better than than the Norweigan guy.

Why was this a question worth asking ?

It made no sense to me and came across as more of an attack than a question. He was questioning why Team Sky were able to develop Froome as a rider but not EBH. Kimmage thought EBH could have been the next Merckx. If EBH wasn't happy at Sky, all he had to do was leave. He was never going to be a grand tour winner (in my humble opinion) and seems to want to focus on the classics anyway. Would love to have seen their faces.

laraghrider · 01-07-2013 08:21AM

I've read a few places that EBH had mental issues over the past couple of years. The pressures, the lifestyle and lacking that mentality to really take him up a level. Apparently getting over them now so maybe expect good things from him over the next year or two. Also he is 26 so not like he is washed up or anything.

nak · 01-07-2013 08:47AM

laraghrider wrote: »

I've read a few places that EBH had mental issues over the past couple of years. The pressures, the lifestyle and lacking that mentality to really take him up a level. Apparently getting over them now so maybe expect good things from him over the next year or two. Also he is 26 so not like he is washed up or anything.

I read that too, which is one of the reasons why I didn't think his question was particularly appropriate.

happytramp · 01-07-2013 09:15AM

MungoMan wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/videos/sport/day-4-paul-kimmages-tour-de-france-diary-29381296.html

someone explain this to me...........its probably obvious to everyone else

so Kimmage was talking about the Norweigan rider, who showed massive promise a few years ago, and looked like someone who could progress into something special

and Froome, 3 years ago had yet to show serious form

And now Froome is better than than the Norweigan guy.

Why was this a question worth asking ?

In a nutshell, he's implying that visible natural talent from a young age is preferable to a relatively unknown rider turning into the greatest rider on earth over night.

Jawgap · 01-07-2013 11:35AM

nak wrote: »

It made no sense to me and came across as more of an attack than a question. He was questioning why Team Sky were able to develop Froome as a rider but not EBH. Kimmage thought EBH could have been the next Merckx. If EBH wasn't happy at Sky, all he had to do was leave. He was never going to be a grand tour winner (in my humble opinion) and seems to want to focus on the classics anyway. Would love to have seen their faces.

I didn't get that question either - if another team thought EBH was a potential tour winner and was not being well served by Sky, wouldn't they try to lure him away?

happytramp wrote: »

In a nutshell, he's implying that visible natural talent from a young age is preferable to a relatively unknown rider turning into the greatest rider on earth over night.

To be honest I think he's implying something else - it seems from this piece that the shadow of doubt must fall on anyone who wins the Tour, if it is not their first Tour, or if they have not won it before.

Good writing, and a nice take on the Tour in Corsica, but I wish he'd change the record.....

RobFowl · 01-07-2013 12:03PM

Jawgap wrote: »

I wish he'd change the record.....

Because he didn't change the record Lance Armstrong has now been stripped of his "wins" from 1999 onwards.
I hope he keeps going until we no longer need to hear it.....

Jawgap · 01-07-2013 12:48PM

RobFowl wrote: »

Because he didn't change the record Lance Armstrong has now been stripped of his "wins" from 1999 onwards.
I hope he keeps going until we no longer need to hear it.....

Not denying the merits of his previous work - but does every piece he write have to be shot through with the same subtext?

I'd like to see some insight into this race, the day's stage etc, so I suppose the obvious thing for me to do is go read someone else.

Morrisseeee · 01-07-2013 03:20PM

A couple of interesting things raise their heads on that diary.

1. He asks a valid Q, ie. someone who was touted as being a very good talent but the Sky team have delivered very little, ie. in the context of EBH being a GT winner/contender.
2. How did Froome suddenly become a GT favourite/contender ?
3. Questions that the media are not allowed to ask while interviewing Team Sky !

I think 'fair play' to Kimmage for asking what most people are thinking/discussing anyway.

WilcoYHF · 01-07-2013 03:44PM

MungoMan wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/videos/sport/day-4-paul-kimmages-tour-de-france-diary-29381296.html

someone explain this to me...........its probably obvious to everyone else

so Kimmage was talking about the Norweigan rider, who showed massive promise a few years ago, and looked like someone who could progress into something special

and Froome, 3 years ago had yet to show serious form

And now Froome is better than than the Norweigan guy.

Why was this a question worth asking ?

You have to put in context some journo has asked what was Sky's vision of the future and DB said they want to take riders with good potential and turn them into world class riders. PK was curious as to why this didnt happen with EBH.

Which is very much a logical question because it suggests Sky are, in part, failing at their objective.

Beasty · 01-07-2013 04:59PM

WilcoYHF wrote: »

Which is very much a logical question because it suggests Sky are, in part, failing at their objective.

Really? Do you not think their objectives are more to do with winning races, which they have clearly delivered on?

There is no way every "potential" world class rider will become one - it's the same in all sports, and there are countless reasons for sportsmen and women not realising their full potential

What Sky have demostrated beyond doubt is their ability to deliver world class cyclists and to suggest they are failing in their objectives is frankly absurd

ROK ON · 01-07-2013 08:58PM

Morrisseeee wrote: »

A couple of interesting things raise their heads on that diary.

1. He asks a valid Q, ie. someone who was touted as being a very good talent but the Sky team have delivered very little, ie. in the context of EBH being a GT winner/contender.
2. How did Froome suddenly become a GT favourite/contender ?
3. Questions that the media are not allowed to ask while interviewing Team Sky !

I think 'fair play' to Kimmage for asking what most people are thinking/discussing anyway.

I am sorry but I completely disagree. Sport (and life in general is replete with people that peaked in early 20's and never delivered on promise. It can be for a hufe amount of reasons. Then other people develop at a slower rate and peak later.

Athletes that are consistenly top class for the 10-15 years of a top class athletes career are as rare as hends teeth. The subtext from PK I believe is that Sky must be up to no good for Froome to come from no where to world class in three years. Maybe he is correct. I have stated before that I do not believe that any Sky rider is doping. I do believe that they are playing yp to the absolute limit of the rules - but in pro sport that is what being professional is all about.

The Kimmage question while maybe suitablle for a broad interview with Brailsford or EBH for that matter, I think was appaulingly timed. It must of been tough for EBH to hear those questions on the cusp of a tour. Effectively being called a loser or all washed up. I hope that he uses it as motivation.
To my mind the question was all about PK - look at me. I ask the tough questions.

No - he used to ask the tough questions. He now is a troll IMHO.

happytramp · 01-07-2013 09:16PM

ROK ON wrote: »

No - he used to ask the tough questions. He now is a troll IMHO.

I like Chris Froome but I've just looked through his Palmares on his Wikipedia page and to be honest I wouldn't be in a hurry to criticize someone for asking Brailsford the question. All doping accusations aside it'd be interesting to figure out how from a training/sporting point of view how an absolute nobody (comparatively speaking of course) can become the dominant force in world cycling over night.

Fr D Maugire · 01-07-2013 09:36PM

ROK ON wrote: »

I am sorry but I completely disagree. Sport (and life in general is replete with people that peaked in early 20's and never delivered on promise. It can be for a hufe amount of reasons. Then other people develop at a slower rate and peak later.

Athletes that are consistenly top class for the 10-15 years of a top class athletes career are as rare as hends teeth. The subtext from PK I believe is that Sky must be up to no good for Froome to come from no where to world class in three years. Maybe he is correct. I have stated before that I do not believe that any Sky rider is doping. I do believe that they are playing yp to the absolute limit of the rules - but in pro sport that is what being professional is all about.

The Kimmage question while maybe suitablle for a broad interview with Brailsford or EBH for that matter, I think was appaulingly timed. It must of been tough for EBH to hear those questions on the cusp of a tour. Effectively being called a loser or all washed up. I hope that he uses it as motivation.
To my mind the question was all about PK - look at me. I ask the tough questions.

No - he used to ask the tough questions. He now is a troll IMHO.

How is it that he used to ask the hard questions but now he is a troll when in fact he is still asking the hard questions. As an example.

Back in 99, Kimmage was one of the few journalists not willing to fall at the feet of Armstrong when he won the Tour. He wrote an article in a cycling mag on how Christophe Basson's was his hero of the 99 Tour and why he was refusing to applaud Armstrong. He knew the score but of course couldn't state it(due to libel) but the subtext was clear. He was labelled a troll then but history proved him correct.

Now we have an athlete who has undergone an even bigger transformation than Armstrong(at least Armstrong had been a top level rider) Kimmage is back probing but is now somehow trolling!!! Are people aware that Froome had not a single win to his name before he suddenly morphed into a top dog.

Before EPO arrived in the 90s, there was no transformations like Froome. It is only with the introduction of Oxygen vector doping that these amazing transformations began to happen. Chiappucci, Indurain, Riis, Armstrong, Wiggins the list is endless. I think Kimmage is totally valid in his line of questioning especially as this is all happening on one team.

To give this an Irish context, imagine if Philip Deignan rocked up to the Vuelta in Septemeber and won the bloody thing. Would we be saying its a late development or would we be saying "err, hold on a second" and Deignan has more results to his name than Froome had.

boege · 02-07-2013 12:36AM

happytramp wrote: »

I like Chris Froome but I've just looked through his Palmares on his Wikipedia page and to be honest I wouldn't be in a hurry to criticize someone for asking Brailsford the question. All doping accusations aside it'd be interesting to figure out how from a training/sporting point of view how an absolute nobody (comparatively speaking of course) can become the dominant force in world cycling over night.

His time trialling ability has always been good. He is also a light rider so he had the core asserts a GT winner required. He turned pro in 2007 so an underdeveloped climbing ability could have been what Sky saw. Wiggo was never a great climber so look what happened there. Sky seem to put a lot of emphasis on training blocks in Majorca where they do enormous amounts of climbing. I watched Wiggens training schedule last year and the climbing numbers are mind numbing, never mind what the legs might think:eek:

In the end of the day allegations need to have some basis beyond improved performance as otherwise how do you move the debate on?

laraghrider · 02-07-2013 08:08AM

boege wrote: »

In the end of the day allegations need to have some basis beyond improved performance as otherwise how do you move the debate on?

Well without falling on one side of the fence or another it's performance spike that has always rang alarm bells. Take Armstrong for example. Now some would say well he was US champion and World Champion in 1993 so he had performance. True yes but then you look at his GT record and I think something like 48th was his best. Then he comes back from cancer and wins the tour 7 years running. Now that's a spike of epic proportions and it rang alarm bells.

Now does Chris Froome have a "spike"? Well lets look at pure stats. 28 years of age turned pro at 22 with the South African Konica team before going to continental team Barloworld. Winning absolutely nothing at all, not even a national in either Kenya or South Africa (where he grew up). Until 2011 that is, a whole 2 years ago when he won 1 stage of the Vuelta and last year 1 stage of the Tour. Then 2013 he sweeps everything and is an absolute shoe in for the biggest of them all.

What kind of spike does that look like to you? To me it's pretty bloody epic and will raise alarm bells. Like the question or not Kimmage's question was a valid one. What's even worse is apparently Team Sky told all affiliated reporters on their way in that they were not allowed to ask any questions regarding performance enhancing or training regimes. Why would a supposed "open" team make that demand.

nak · 02-07-2013 08:40AM

laraghrider wrote: »

Like the question or not Kimmage's question was a valid one. What's even worse is apparently Team Sky told all affiliated reporters on their way in that they were not allowed to ask any questions regarding performance enhancing or training regimes. Why would a supposed "open" team make that demand.

I don't know, but they way things have gone in the sport it must be very frustrating for riders being asked the same questions all the time. Marijn de Vries did an interview at the start of the Giro Rosa with the idea of promoting the race, all she was asked about was doping. She has said in the past that most female riders are lucky if they can afford a coffee. The press only seem to be interested in cycling doping stories. Veronica Campbell-Brown (multiple Olympic medalist) tested positive and I heard nothing about it in the news (it was reported, just not widely from what I saw).

laraghrider · 02-07-2013 09:33AM

nak wrote: »

I don't know, but they way things have gone in the sport it must be very frustrating for riders being asked the same questions all the time. Marijn de Vries did an interview at the start of the Giro Rosa with the idea of promoting the race, all she was asked about was doping. She has said in the past that most female riders are lucky if they can afford a coffee. The press only seem to be interested in cycling doping stories. Veronica Campbell-Brown (multiple Olympic medalist) tested positive and I heard nothing about it in the news (it was reported, just not widely from what I saw).

I can fully understand that frustration but at the same time the riders and teams have to take responsibility for their part in that as well. When people like Wiggins and Cav come out and say things like "that was years ago" & "it's a bygone era" etc... No, it was 2 years ago!!!! That just adds to the suspicion.

Hermy · 02-07-2013 09:42AM

nak wrote: »

I don't know, but they way things have gone in the sport it must be very frustrating for riders being asked the same questions all the time...

The way things have gone in the sport you'd think riders would be going out of their way to condemn the dopers. Their reluctance to do so does not inspire confidence that things have actually changed.

mistermatthew · 02-07-2013 09:59AM

Apparently froome since junior had incredible talent but was not focused, and now he seems to have become focused. Also it's hard to know what his performance was on '07 as if he's a clean rider he was competing against dirty riders those years and perhaps now his performance level only shows as the sport is cleaner.
It is impossible to know, only to trust.

RobFowl · 02-07-2013 10:17AM

mistermatthew wrote: »

It is impossible to know, only to trust.

Trust is gone a long time. It's up to riders and teams to prove that they are clean.
Unpalatable for many but simply the truth.

mcgratheoin · 02-07-2013 10:19AM

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Now we have an athlete who has undergone an even bigger transformation than Armstrong(at least Armstrong had been a top level rider) Kimmage is back probing but is now somehow trolling!!! Are people aware that Froome had not a single win to his name before he suddenly morphed into a top dog.

I'd have to disagree that Froome's transformation is bigger than Armstrong - just because you're a top rider doesn't make it less of a transformation into a GC contender - Armstrong was a classics man, a one-day racer who won the world championship. It'd be like Phillipe Gilbert turning up and winning a grand tour next season.

It's also worth considering the lack of any decent coaching that Froome had as a developing rider coming from South Africa. Stick him in the UK instead of Jo'burg as a teenager and he ends up in the GB cycling programme and progressing a lot earlier than he actually did. Essentially he didn't turn pro till his last year in university - who knows whether he actually trained to his full ability while studying? Couple that to his bilharzia infection and his progress from age 22 to 28 actually looks quite steady.

Chiappucci, Indurain, Riis, Armstrong, Wiggins the list is endless.

Putting skinny Wiggins (a rider with a very strong endurance pedigree) into the same category as the Indurain's and Riis's of the cycling world is stretching it a bit. Those were big strong-men (Indurain was 80kg) who were able to grind over mountains with the climbers - I don't think Twiggo (who shed a heap of weight) fits into that category.

I agree that the questions still need to be asked, and that the riders still need to be reminded that the public are fed up with dopers. I've commented on that several times before, especially from the perspective of what riders need to do and say in public to win over the sceptics. I get very annoyed with riders who say it's all in the past, particularly when you consider that last year was the first year in decades that the TdF podium didn't have a confirmed doper on it. However, I get the impression from Paul Kimmage's writing that he takes it all very very personally. While this can have it's benefits (Lance), there are times when it detracts from his work. It seems sometimes that he has a grudge/chip on his shoulder over SKY, which I can completely understand given the discrepancy between what they say and what they do.

The nub of the issue is that most of the teams are unwilling to do what it would take to convince PK and the more sceptical end of the spectrum, and they're ok with that, as long as they can keep the majority of people happy with them.

Anyone following Paul Kimages' TdF video diary? **Mod Warning OP**

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Anyone following Paul Kimages' TdF video diary? Mod Warning OP