Lions 2013 Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

accidentprone1 · 01-07-2013 10:37AM

Stephen Jones was saying in the Times yesterday that Gray should come in - I recall him saying something about Gray being able to "clear out rucks singlehandedly."

Is he basing that on any shred of evidence this tour?

wonderfullife · 01-07-2013 10:41AM

Quint2010 wrote: »

So with Warburton out who will Gatland pick at seven? SOB would have to be favourite.

As previously mentioned, the closest like-for-like replacement is Tipuric.

However - a) we lost the game and b) Tipuric has had a woeful lack of game-time in recent weeks.

He surely has to go with SOB.

If he goes with Tipuric it shows he is stubborn to the point of no-return in his belief this game-plan is the way to win.

When really we were 1 kick away from being 2-0 down (and 1 kick away from being 2-0 up). People assume this means the sides are evenly matched. That's one way of viewing it. Another way is that we are much better but haven't been able to show it because of our game-plan.

Also his refusal to send Grant on was a kick in the teeth. Mako almost never goes the full 80 in domestic rugby or international, so not to send Grant on shows he has no faith in him.

Quint2010 · 01-07-2013 10:41AM

.ak wrote: »

If you bring Gray in you'll completely lose another body at the breakdown. He's been completely ineffectual at the breakdown, his carrying is non-existent. Would you pick him based on the fact he's 6'11"? That won't matter squat when it's our entire line out machine that isn't functioning. Parling is the better operator and better jumper.

Parling was completely anonymous on Saturday and it was his decision to throw to the back for the lineout at the end by all accounts. Thought he looked very lightweight and not able for the physicality. Plus our re-starts need to be improved and Gray adds athleticism in that department too. He would be somewhat of a gamble and Gatland may go for Evans but I reckon Parling will be dropped.

Buer · 01-07-2013 10:46AM

Quint2010 wrote: »

The reason The Lions lost on Saturday was the set-piece. The scrum can easily be rectified by the addition of Hibbard and Corbisiero. And Croft is the best line-out operator left in the squad and him, along with Richie Gray, should come in. Who knows-Gatland does have the option to play Croft in the second row but then that would weaken the scrum. Think Gray should start with a backrow of Croft, SOB and Heaslip (who gets the nod for experience and donkey work).

The line out is limited but functioning. There's no need to bring in someone as a tail jumper. The only one I recall thrown to the tail at the weekend was taken by Warburton which SOB can do. The Lions have lost one line out in 160 minutes of rugby (1/24 lost). There's no real justification for Croft coming in as a line out specialist at the moment if they rarely trust throwing to the back.

.ak · 01-07-2013 10:47AM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Parling was completely anonymous on Saturday and it was his decision to throw to the back for the lineout at the end by all accounts. Thought he looked very lightweight and not able for the physicality. Plus our re-starts need to be improved and Gray adds athleticism in that department too. He would be somewhat of a gamble and Gatland may go for Evans but I reckon Parling will be dropped.

He's still been far better than anything Gray has offered on tour tho. Gray's athleticism won't mean anything because of the Oz kick-chase.

I wouldn't mind Evans in there but I think Parling is the best choice. He's shown the most on tour and I wouldn't blame him for asking Hibbard to throw over Horwill at the front.

Buer · 01-07-2013 10:49AM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Parling was completely anonymous on Saturday and it was his decision to throw to the back for the lineout at the end by all accounts. Thought he looked very lightweight and not able for the physicality. Plus our re-starts need to be improved and Gray adds athleticism in that department too. He would be somewhat of a gamble and Gatland may go for Evans but I reckon Parling will be dropped.

He was the top tackler on the pitch and took more clean line outs than any Lion. The guy will almost certainly start next week. He's by far our best line out reader.

Quint2010 · 01-07-2013 10:55AM

.ak wrote: »

He's still been far better than anything Gray has offered on tour tho. Gray's athleticism won't mean anything because of the Oz kick-chase.

I wouldn't mind Evans in there but I think Parling is the best choice. He's shown the most on tour and I wouldn't blame him for asking Hibbard to throw over Horwill at the front.

Most if not all of Australia's re-starts were kicked short to re-gain possession and in a lot of cases it worked. Plus Gray would add an extra stone and a half to the scrum.

.ak · 01-07-2013 10:56AM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Most if not all of Australia's re-starts were kicked short to re-gain possession and in a lot of cases it worked. Plus Gray would add an extra stone and a half to the scrum.

I'm not convinced. We've seen how Toner can be ineffective in the tight at times. Weight doesn't translate into power all the time.

Rightwing · 01-07-2013 10:58AM

The bookies have copped on a bit and have the game as scratch. I think the Aussies should be favs.

.ak · 01-07-2013 11:00AM

Rightwing wrote: »

The bookies have copped on a bit and have the game as scratch. I think the Aussies should be favs.

I'd defo have them as favs.

wonderfullife · 01-07-2013 11:14AM

Rightwing wrote: »

The bookies have copped on a bit and have the game as scratch. I think the Aussies should be favs.

Perhaps the bookies do think the Wallabies are favourites. But the liability they have on the book with a Lions series win is probably running into the tens of millions across the home nations. So from a betting perspective they couldn't put Australia in too short when their huge liability is on the other side.

As for them "copping on a bit" - bookies try win money. They had the Lions -3 at the weekend and i guarantee that was steamed into. They made a fortune on that game!!

Rightwing · 01-07-2013 11:27AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

Perhaps the bookies do think the Wallabies are favourites. But the liability they have on the book with a Lions series win is probably running into the tens of millions across the home nations. So from a betting perspective they couldn't put Australia in too short when their huge liability is on the other side.

As for them "copping on a bit" - bookies try win money. They had the Lions -3 at the weekend and i guarantee that was steamed into. They made a fortune on that game!!

Not sure, (i agree with your 1st paragraph), they paid out on a Lions series win already.

Looking at it objectively, the Aussies have been by far the better team over the series so far, Lions have to pull something big out of the bag to win. I've seen little to nothing from them (apart from 1 brilliant solo try).

wonderfullife · 01-07-2013 11:37AM

Rightwing wrote: »

Not sure, (i agree with your 1st paragraph), they paid out on a Lions series win already.

Looking at it objectively, the Aussies have been by far the better team over the series so far, Lions have to pull something big out of the bag to win. I've seen little to nothing from them (apart from 1 brilliant solo try).

Bookies pay out early largely for 2 reasons:

1. Publicity generated by it.

2. They generally choose to pay out early before busy weekends of sport. So you give the money back to the punters when there are a lot more opportunities to lose it back.

I'm not sure which bookie paid out but if it was Paddy Power, then i imagine the publicity outweighed the liability on their books, rugby wouldnt be a big betting liability with them. And they paid out ahead of a weekend that included huge horse racing action, Wimbledon, Tour de France, the F1 Grand Prix, Confederations Cup in soccer etc.

The early pay-out is very smart. A Wallaby series win will likely have little liability so paying out early was smart, get some publicity and get the money back sooner. Nothing really to do with whether they think the Lions will win the series.

LUPE · 01-07-2013 11:42AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

As previously mentioned, the closest like-for-like replacement is Tipuric.

However - a) we lost the game and b) Tipuric has had a woeful lack of game-time in recent weeks.

He surely has to go with SOB.

If he goes with Tipuric it shows he is stubborn to the point of no-return in his belief this game-plan is the way to win.

When really we were 1 kick away from being 2-0 down (and 1 kick away from being 2-0 up). People assume this means the sides are evenly matched. That's one way of viewing it. Another way is that we are much better but haven't been able to show it because of our game-plan.

Also his refusal to send Grant on was a kick in the teeth. Mako almost never goes the full 80 in domestic rugby or international, so not to send Grant on shows he has no faith in him.

I'm not sure there is a single correct point in this.

How does he "surely" have to go with SOB? Every backrow needs balance; SOB at 7 wouldn't bring that. If Warburton hadn't been injured, would you have still pushed for SOB in at 7? Of course not. Warburton was absolutely peerless on Saturday.

If he goes with Tipuric he is "stubborn", apparently. He's playing a specialist 7 in a specialist position, he's hardly being contrary. And of course he'll be strong in his belief that it is the way to win, do you think he's going into this thinking "some geek on the internet said I should play SOB, but just to spite him I'm going to pick Tipuric".

Wouldn't surprise me if he had no faith in Grant, he's about 64th choice and there by default.

Rightwing · 01-07-2013 11:43AM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Most if not all of Australia's re-starts were kicked short to re-gain possession and in a lot of cases it worked. Plus Gray would add an extra stone and a half to the scrum.

I'd also go with Gray, Roberts back in, Corb'o.

01-07-2013 11:43AM

O'Brien has played about 93% of his rugby this season at Openside.

.ak · 01-07-2013 11:45AM

LUPE wrote: »

I'm not sure there is a single correct point in this.

How does he "surely" have to go with SOB? Every backrow needs balance; SOB at 7 wouldn't bring that. If Warburton hadn't been injured, would you have still pushed for SOB in at 7? Of course not. Warburton was absolutely peerless on Saturday.

If he goes with Tipuric he is "stubborn", apparently. He's playing a specialist 7 in a specialist position, he's hardly being contrary. And of course he'll be strong in his belief that it is the way to win, do you think he's going into this thinking "some geek on the internet said I should play SOB, but just to spite him I'm going to pick Tipuric".

Wouldn't surprise me if he had no faith in Grant, he's about 64th choice and there by default.

Don't be a dick.

Anyway, SOB has shown on many occasions, and usually on the international stage, that he's one of the best opensides in the world. I have no problem with him stepping in at 7.

The 'surely' part must be because he was the next backrow involved in the test side, and not Tipiruc.

geekington · 01-07-2013 11:47AM

The re-starts topic hasn't really been touched on to date. Sexton put every single re-start (bar the final one) deep in to the 22 to the same corner of the pitch. He has done this in every game on tour to date.

It seems like he has been told where exactly to place them and can't deviate from this.

I for one find this tatic frustrating as you have no opportunity to secure possesion or pressurise the player. I understand the thinking as you allow them to clear and you are then able to structure a line out around half way - but this is so ultra conservative and really highlights the type of gameplan being emplyed by WG.

Buer · 01-07-2013 11:52AM

I think the restarts have worked really well, actually. The Australian side are very weak in terms of their line kicking so they're looking to expose that flaw. More often than not, the Australians have taken the ball and been forced to kick for touch from deep in their 22 and the Lions have ended up with possession anywhere between the Australian 10m and 22m lines.

SlickRic · 01-07-2013 11:57AM

Gatland is all about defence first.

then in attack it's bash, bash, bash around the fringes using your strike runners, then going wide when defenders have been sucked in. this means his teams need go forward ball badly. this means getting the lineout right is essential - because good ball from the back spreads the opposition defence, thus leaving more space for strike runners to pick lines.

you could hear BOD getting frustrated at the weekend - the Lions aren't building phases. if set-piece ball doesn't materialise, we need to have the confidence to build phases from wherever. too often, especially in the final 20, the Lions were just kicking the ball away.

SOB has to start, if only for another strike runner. fúck the worries about him giving away penalties, just let him loose.

dregin · 01-07-2013 11:59AM

https://twitter.com/brianodriscoll/status/351654382053498883

wonderfullife · 01-07-2013 11:59AM

LUPE wrote: »

I'm not sure there is a single correct point in this.

How does he "surely" have to go with SOB? Every backrow needs balance; SOB at 7 wouldn't bring that. If Warburton hadn't been injured, would you have still pushed for SOB in at 7? Of course not. Warburton was absolutely peerless on Saturday.

If he goes with Tipuric he is "stubborn", apparently. He's playing a specialist 7 in a specialist position, he's hardly being contrary. And of course he'll be strong in his belief that it is the way to win, do you think he's going into this thinking "some geek on the internet said I should play SOB, but just to spite him I'm going to pick Tipuric".

Wouldn't surprise me if he had no faith in Grant, he's about 64th choice and there by default.

Think of this another way - Tipuric is cold. Hasn't played basically any rugby in 2 weeks and is right at the bottom of the backrow pecking order. I dont think he offers more than SOB as a specialist openside.

Warburton was magnificent but im not sure what that has to do with who replaces him. He's injured.

I just think it would be a huge mistake to put Tipuric in there for the biggest Test of their careers when he is short on game time and probably on confidence. Can't do much for your confidence being left out of the 23 twice in a row.

3 weeks ago the loss of Warburton would have been a blessing in disguise. At that point in time he was still feeling his way back from injury. Right now the loss is massive. He really put in a display that will live with me for a long time, and i was one calling for his head too!

The Wallabies will not want to face SOB from the start for 80 mins i know that much. After 2011 its not something they'll be looking forward to.

geekington · 01-07-2013 12:02PM

Buer wrote: »

I think the restarts have worked really well, actually. The Australian side are very weak in terms of their line kicking so they're looking to expose that flaw. More often than not, the Australians have taken the ball and been forced to kick for touch from deep in their 22 and the Lions have ended up with possession anywhere between the Australian 10m and 22m lines.

This is the one redeeming factor - however, considering how ineffectual our line out has been at generating attacking opportunities we haven't been able to take advantage of it. Now TBH our phase play has been awful to so it might be the lesser of two evils. However, its more the mindset of the call that frustrates and it basically admits to everyone that your gameplan is structured off set piece and thats it! The lack of imagination is also a frustrating - to run the same play off every restart make life to easy for the opposition after a score!

wonderfullife · 01-07-2013 12:08PM

geekington wrote: »

This is the one redeeming factor - however, considering how ineffectual our line out has been at generating attacking opportunities we haven't been able to take advantage of it. Now TBH our phase play has been awful to so it might be the lesser of two evils. However, its more the mindset of the call that frustrates and it basically admits to everyone that your gameplan is structured off set piece and thats it! The lack of imagination is also a frustrating - to run the same play off every restart make life to easy for the opposition after a score!

I was more concerned that when they did try be imaginative, they weren't very imaginative.

Reminds of the scene in Inception where he says "you need to dream a little bigger, darling",

One of the first lineouts they tried to get clever and offloaded straight back to Youngs. A pretty obvious play when you go short often.

SlickRic · 01-07-2013 12:09PM

from BOD again on the Tweet Machine...

BOFXi5xCYAAYRkh.jpg:large

SlickRic · 01-07-2013 12:18PM

and one more from BOD...

BOFX05NCIAELozB.jpg:large

[Jackass] · 01-07-2013 12:59PM

Tommy "cock block" Bowe

prettyboy81 · 01-07-2013 01:00PM

BOD dropping the hints that he wants the Tullow Tank in at 7 this weekend. Going to bet on BOD 1st Try, Lions Win & BOD Man of the Match ha.

Saturday can't come quick enough & BOD must be nailed on to be Captain.

Lelantos · 01-07-2013 01:10PM

prettyboy81 wrote: »

BOD dropping the hints that he wants the Tullow Tank in at 7 this weekend. Going to bet on BOD 1st Try, Lions Win & BOD Man of the Match ha.

Saturday can't come quick enough & BOD must be nailed on to be Captain.

If SOB was called the Prestatyn Panzer, he'd have started all 3 tests

jamiedav2011 · 01-07-2013 01:10PM

Just can't see how anyone who has watched some of Richie Gray's 'performances' on this tour to start on Sat. He'd be cut in two by Kane Douglas or Horwill in a ruck.

The guy has done little all season. I've said it before, but if he had brown hair he'd be at home with his feet up and Jim Hamilton/D Ryan would be out there!

Such an overrated lock.

Lions 2013 Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

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