Lions 2013 Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

.ak · 29-06-2013 10:04PM

shuffol wrote: »

No member of the backrow made more than 4 carries, that needs to be addressed.

Well we had crap all possession. The only time the ball went to the backrow was off scrums. All the other ball from set pieces went to - you guessed it - up the 12 channel.

clsmooth · 29-06-2013 10:09PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Rumours that Phillips may have been dropped for breaking a curfew..

Disappointing if so. I thought he was dropped for a shocking performance and the injury line was just for him to keep some face. Doesnt deserve to start next week at all. Surprised to say this, but Murray deserves a start. Has had very a good tour. Ireland will benefit hugely from his experience touring. 6 months ago, I wouldnt have had him on the plane. Hopefully he can keep improving.

Kiwi_knock · 29-06-2013 10:12PM

Would be interesting to see what was the highest total of phases the Lions put together? Seemed like it was not a lot of phases, seemed like it was one of two forward carries then a crash ball with Davies followed by an up and under.

.ak · 29-06-2013 10:13PM

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Would be interesting to see what was the highest total of phases the Lions put together? Seemed like it was not a lot of phases, seemed like it was one of two forward carries then a crash ball with Davies followed by an up and under.

That's it. Australia were the only ones putting it through the hands really. Some of Australia's back play was incredibly easy to read, you reckon if they were standing closer to the line some of the moves would've came off.

I think the same could be said for the Lions. If the 12 was used to distribute rather than crash ball you'd see some progress and more phases and hopefully turning a few players.

Grandpa Hassan · 29-06-2013 11:09PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Please play Manu at 12

^^ this

JRant · 29-06-2013 11:34PM

Excellent piece by Dean Ryan. The chaps forgotten more about rugby than I'll ever know.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/jun/29/lions-tactics-board-gatland-vunipola

30-06-2013 12:12AM

JRant wrote: »

Excellent piece by Dean Ryan. The chaps forgotten more about rugby than I'll ever know.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/jun/29/lions-tactics-board-gatland-vunipola

My God, this guy writes for a living? Where are his editors? Those paragraphs make my brain bleed maggots.

Kiwi_knock · 30-06-2013 12:19AM

Paul Cully ‏@whiskeycully
Wallabies confident Will Genia's knee will be right for next week - it's the same one he busted last year, just about managing it now.

Hope he is all right for next week, an Aussie team without him and Horwill would be an entirely different proposition.

JRant · 30-06-2013 12:25AM

19543261 wrote: »

My God, this guy writes for a living? Where are his editors? Those paragraphs make my brain bleed maggots.

He's not going to win the Pulitzer any time soon but his knowledge of the game is fantastic.

If you want to make your head really hurt try this one;

http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/jun/29/lions-australia-third-test-sydney#comments

And this bloke does make a living from writing!

Fireball07 · 30-06-2013 12:57AM

Buer wrote: »

Hibbard made a big impact in the scrum all be it possibly illegally. Youngs was alright. The line out wobbled with him at times and he still isn't trusted to throw to the tail.

Hibbard isn't really any worse at throwing. I would go with the strongest scrum unit possible and scrum them into the dirt. The scrum has had a massive impact in the first two tests.

Youngs is capable at coming in and making an impact as teams tire but this is one where I would definitely go with RH.

Beforehand, I'd have thought Hibbard had the best darts of the lot, but they've been quite poor on your. As for Youngs...the lineout hasn't been great in general, average at best, no good clean ball coming off the top but he offers an awful lot around the park, as a ball-carrier and at the breakdown.

I can see your reasoning...but I think with Corbisiero back, we can afford to play Youngs in the scrum too.

bilston · 30-06-2013 01:06AM

19543261 wrote: »

My God, this guy writes for a living? Where are his editors? Those paragraphs make my brain bleed maggots.

Whatever about his writing he is far and away the best analyst Sky have.

bilston · 30-06-2013 01:11AM

Lads word of caution to all those calling for Tuilagi to come in at 12. He is a 13 as well, while he may be better suited to crashing it up than JD2 I don't think playing him at 12 will really solve the midfield problem. For me it's Roberts and if not him then one of Twelvetrees or Barritt. I'd probably go with Barritt just to get over the gainline and you know that defensively he will be strong. But the massive preference is for the Doc to be fit.

Buer · 30-06-2013 01:36AM

19543261 wrote: »

My God, this guy writes for a living? Where are his editors? Those paragraphs make my brain bleed maggots.

I've studied English but give me someone who can understand and explain the game in clear terms any day over someone who provides rhetoric and hyperbolic spew that is perfect in terms of syntax.

30-06-2013 07:55AM

Buer wrote: »

I've studied English but give me someone who can understand and explain the game in clear terms any day over someone who provides rhetoric and hyperbolic spew that is perfect in terms of syntax.

I didnt know those gifts were mutually exclusive.

Hottowel · 30-06-2013 08:29AM

clsmooth wrote: »

Disappointing if so. I thought he was dropped for a shocking performance and the injury line was just for him to keep some face. Doesnt deserve to start next week at all. Surprised to say this, but Murray deserves a start. Has had very a good tour. Ireland will benefit hugely from his experience touring. 6 months ago, I wouldnt have had him on the plane. Hopefully he can keep improving.

Yeah I'd be the same. Didn't want him there 6 months cause thought he was so slow round the base of rucks and mauls getting the ball away, this was never a strength of Philips but thought youngs could get a pass away quickly, it appears he can't. Philips has been the form scrum half, I think Gatland might go with him too.

vienne86 · 30-06-2013 08:50AM

I think Murray deserves the call up for next weekend - he has had a fabulous tour. I was one of his critics, when I thought he was too slow, but am delighted to eat humble pie now. He's had a great season, has taken his chances well and has worked hard. Great for Ireland.

lologram · 30-06-2013 09:37AM

vienne86 wrote: »

I think Murray deserves the call up for next weekend - he has had a fabulous tour. I was one of his critics, when I thought he was too slow, but am delighted to eat humble pie now. He's had a great season, has taken his chances well and has worked hard. Great for Ireland.

Not to be too serious or anything, humble pie isn't required for pointing out that he was slow and is now better than he was. Because, well, he WAS very slow. I'm really glad to see he's improved on that now though. Thought he looked very good yesterday off the bench.

DDC1990 · 30-06-2013 10:01AM

One thing i'd say about Murray is he got an awful lot of unwarrented stick about the speed of his play.

He was slow in the beginning, but then he improved tactically, but people still berated him when he didn't get to the ruck and just fling it as quickly as possible.

There are times when the scrumhalf needs to wait for the attacking line to organize, or wait for the forwards to get themselves out of the last ruck. He was getting criticized for waiting at these rucks, like any good scrumhalf would do.

If you look at Australia's try yesterday, it came after 15 phases or so.

Genia didn't get to every ruck and fire the ball out straight away, he knew when to wait and when the ball needed to be fired out quickly.

This was Murray's problem in the beginning. He would have the numbers out wide, and he would delay the ball unnecessarily.

Now he is much better at spotting when he needs to get the ball out quickly, but the same voices still dissent when he waits for the backline to organize.

Chabals Beard · 30-06-2013 10:46AM

The rate of which he improved has been vital.. who would have said after the first Racing Metro game Murray would be outperforming Philips and Youngs on a Lions tour.

JRant · 30-06-2013 10:50AM

DDC1990 wrote: »

One thing i'd say about Murray is he got an awful lot of unwarrented stick about the speed of his play.

He was slow in the beginning, but then he improved tactically, but people still berated him when he didn't get to the ruck and just fling it as quickly as possible.

There are times when the scrumhalf needs to wait for the attacking line to organize, or wait for the forwards to get themselves out of the last ruck. He was getting criticized for waiting at these rucks, like any good scrumhalf would do.

If you look at Australia's try yesterday, it came after 15 phases or so.

Genia didn't get to every ruck and fire the ball out straight away, he knew when to wait and when the ball needed to be fired out quickly.

This was Murray's problem in the beginning. He would have the numbers out wide, and he would delay the ball unnecessarily.

Now he is much better at spotting when he needs to get the ball out quickly, but the same voices still dissent when he waits for the backline to organize.

A lot of the stick Murray got was deserved but some of it was down to him being a pet project of Kidney. He practically owned the Irish 9 jersey despite the fact that he wasn't really good enough to be playing at that level.

He really has improved his game and probably deserves to start next week. His major weakness though is decision making in the oppostition 22, still has a way to go in developing that aspect of his game.

Tox56 · 30-06-2013 11:25AM

DDC1990 wrote: »

One thing i'd say about Murray is he got an awful lot of unwarrented stick about the speed of his play.

He was slow in the beginning, but then he improved tactically, but people still berated him when he didn't get to the ruck and just fling it as quickly as possible.

There are times when the scrumhalf needs to wait for the attacking line to organize, or wait for the forwards to get themselves out of the last ruck. He was getting criticized for waiting at these rucks, like any good scrumhalf would do.

If you look at Australia's try yesterday, it came after 15 phases or so.

Genia didn't get to every ruck and fire the ball out straight away, he knew when to wait and when the ball needed to be fired out quickly.

This was Murray's problem in the beginning. He would have the numbers out wide, and he would delay the ball unnecessarily.

Now he is much better at spotting when he needs to get the ball out quickly, but the same voices still dissent when he waits for the backline to organize.

He hasn't become Genia overnight. He's a lot faster than he was but he is a long way from the quickest scrumhalf in the world. His style of play is not based around speed so it isn't a huge issue, but it would be wrong to suggest there aren't times where his delivery can be quicker. We'll see what he does with next season with Schmidt, added responsibility at Munster and the experience of this Lions tour behind him

Buer · 30-06-2013 11:30AM

I have a suspicion that Phillips will be drafted straight back into the starting side for the last test.

Lelantos · 30-06-2013 11:33AM

Buer wrote: »

I have a suspicion that Phillips will be drafted straight back into the starting side for the last test.

Depends, if he's hurt, no he won't, if he was out drinking & broke curfew, can't see him being drafted back in either, would set a bad example to the rest of the squad.

.ak · 30-06-2013 11:36AM

Next week I'd go for

AC, TY, DC, AWJ, GP, SOB, SW(c), JH, MP, JS, GN, JR, BOD, TB, LH.

RH, MV, AJ, IE, DL, CM, OF, AC

A couple of points. I think Faletau will be unlucky and won't make the test. Heaslip has been the glue in the pack and when himself and Sam went off it was obvious the backrow lost something defensively. It's harsh on Faletau but there's no room for sympathy in a test series decider. Having said that I'd be happy if he did start, there's little between the two 8s although we know how JH can up his game when it's knockout time.

Watching the game again I just wasn't convinced by Lydiate at all. I don't think he's fit enough for this level due to his injury layoff. At 60 min he was flopping off rucks and barely catching people in the tackle. Many people welcomed his inclusion for his tackling and his ability to hit rucks and shut down the fringes. In reality he didn't do any of the above very well. He threw himself around to make a few ankle tackles but other than that I thought he was fairly ineffective. He also represented the fact Gatland wanted to defend a lead before they even won it. If Sam is fit then SOB should take Lydiate's spot.

Another gamble would be at TH. I thought Jones got turned to easily on his side. Cole has been bubbling nicely in the scrum and at times yesterday destroyed the oz loosie. Jones also can't last the length, so why not give him the bench.

The croft experiment didn't work either. I think we all had a little sweat when AWJ looked injured in the opening quarter. We need a proper lock to cover. I don't think Evans will let anyone down from the bench.

I think Phillips will start. He's first choice and on his day he's a class SH. I reckon the first test will be a stick to beat him with. Murray has done everything to earn his spot, but I don't think he's 100% there yet.

The centres are debatable, but it's clear that gatland has plans for the Roberts BOD combo. BOD was also captain after Sam went off the field so I'd imagine if there's any doubt over Sam then BOD will be there to take over captaincy.

Buer · 30-06-2013 11:45AM

Lelantos wrote: »

Depends, if he's hurt, no he won't, if he was out drinking & broke curfew, can't see him being drafted back in either, would set a bad example to the rest of the squad.

Last test with nothing after. I would say they won't be bothered about setting examples.

30-06-2013 11:46AM

bilston wrote: »

Lads word of caution to all those calling for Tuilagi to come in at 12. He is a 13 as well, while he may be better suited to crashing it up than JD2 I don't think playing him at 12 will really solve the midfield problem. For me it's Roberts and if not him then one of Twelvetrees or Barritt. I'd probably go with Barritt just to get over the gainline and you know that defensively he will be strong. But the massive preference is for the Doc to be fit.

I know that the game wasn't as intense, but the only game of this entire tour that looked as though the centres even really knew each other was when Manu played at 12 with BOD at 13.

I thought Manu probably gave the best performance of anyone at 12 on the whole tour that day. Roberts doesn't have the dynamism that Tuilagi does, he's a solid battering ram and is a clever defender but I can't see him burning anyone on the outside, or stepping inside and putting a flanker through on an inside line.

Maybe a bit of Devil's Advocate required here. I am a massive Sexton fan, but he is not opening up the backs as he has previously. A lot of this can be attributed to an excellent defensive line from the Aussies but I think that JS is missing opportunities to exploit gaps behind the line. I'm not certain how Davies or Roberts could look more than competent if they're only working with a half second of time or a yard of space when they get the ball.

This all follows on from not getting quick enough ball to prevent the defensive line from resetting as quickly.

They always talk about rugby being a game of inches and little margins. The thing is, when you concede an inch in a couple of phases, it adds up quickly enough. We are simply not forcing enough mistakes. Australia have dealt with the attack far too well.

Lelantos · 30-06-2013 11:49AM

Buer wrote: »

Last test with nothing after. I would say they won't be bothered about setting examples.

Its not the after I'd worry about, it's the 80 mins during. If all isn't well in the camp, and he plays, it smacks of 1 rule for Phillips & 1 rule for everyone else. Now. Importantly, there has been no confirmation of curfew breaking, so it may just be bored journalists or Twittertalk.

DDC1990 · 30-06-2013 11:59AM

Tox56 wrote: »

He hasn't become Genia overnight. He's a lot faster than he was but he is a long way from the quickest scrumhalf in the world. His style of play is not based around speed so it isn't a huge issue, but it would be wrong to suggest there aren't times where his delivery can be quicker. We'll see what he does with next season with Schmidt, added responsibility at Munster and the experience of this Lions tour behind him

Far from it, I totally agree.

Genia is miles ahead of any Scrum Half playing at present.

I just used Genia as an example of a scrumhalf who can get the ball moving lightning quick, but doesn't feel the need to mindlessly fling the ball ASAP.

Danny Care comes to mind as a scrumhalf who is really quick at getting the ball moving, but sometimes his team suffers from it, when he brainlessly will pass to an isolated man, or take a quick tap and fly off on his own and get turned over.

You need brains as well as speed to be a top class scrum half. Murray has a bit of both but needs the experience to refine his game.
He's come on leaps and bounds since the Racing Metro game, where he really cost Munster the game with some terrible decision making. He's a long way to go before he can be mentioned in the same class as Genia, but he brings a physicality that can't be underestimated.

That turnover Murray won within seconds of coming on typified his value as a player. On top of that he scrapped at a ruck and managed to fly-hack the ball 50m downfield. And he stood in the gap facing Falau as he came bursting through the middle 5m from the line (O'Connors pass was too high and he knocked it on, but Murray was there and made a hit. None of these things are "Scrumhalf" duties, but they show how he brings something extra to the table in defence especially.

Swiwi. · 30-06-2013 12:08PM

Buer wrote: »

I have a suspicion that Phillips will be drafted straight back into the starting side for the last test.

I'd put money on it. I'll eat my socks if he doesn't start (provided fit). If he doesn't start and Horwill gets off his citing, I'll be shìtting cotton this week, but might as well be upfront with my opinions!

Swiwi. · 30-06-2013 12:09PM

Buer wrote: »

Last test with nothing after. I would say they won't be bothered about setting examples.

Egg-actly. No place for moral high ground here. No-one will care if Phillips broke curfew if he starts & the Lions win.

Lions 2013 Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

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