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Birth Lottery and social justice

245

Comments

  • #32
    Crushed Dry Ice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18 ✭Crushed Dry Ice


    Being born with a silver spoon in your mouth can be highly detrimental. When you don't have much in life you are more likely to have the motivation to develop the work ethic to master your craft or to gain valuable skills. You can't gain valuable skills with money alone and mastering a craft or skill is one of the most satisfying experiences in life. Take advantage of the cards you are dealt.


  • #33
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    I've always thought that the private school system has acted as a tool to perpetuate inequality. It's no coincidence that most private school graduates go on to the main universities, while most in working class areas with no great tradition of sending people to university don't. I think it's important that that is rectified in some way, as I've always instinctively felt that everyone should be given the same chance in education. One way we could improve this is quotas; when you think about it a student achieving the highest Leaving Cert points in his/her year in a working class area with little expectation of going to university is more of an achievement than an upper-middle class kid churning out 500-odd points in a fee-paying school.


  • #34
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    Birth lottery? You make it seem like people have won something by being born into a privileged background. None of us had a say where we were born.
    That's why it's a lottery. Take two newborn babies being driven home by their parents, pulling out the gates of St Vincent's Hospital.

    One car contains a family of multi-millionaires living off inherited wealth, the other car contains a family from a very poor family, with no assets, living on welfare. The two cars collide, and, tragically, all of the parents die. Our story is left with two orphans.

    Although these babies both find themselves orphaned, legally, their fortunes have become radically different. The baby from the wealthy family will be legally entitled to a substantial share of his dead parents' wealth to raise and educate him in privilege. The baby of the poor family is entitled to nothing of the sort.

    What I am trying to illustrate is that this State establishes privilege as a birthright.

    Birth is a lottery. The benefits can be overwhelming, but the misfortunes can be devastating.


  • #35
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    St.Spodo wrote: »
    I've always thought that the private school system has acted as a tool to perpetuate inequality. It's no coincidence that most private school graduates go on to the main universities, while most in working class areas with no great tradition of sending people to university don't. I think it's important that that is rectified in some way, as I've always instinctively felt that everyone should be given the same chance in education. One way we could improve this is quotas; when you think about it a student achieving the highest Leaving Cert points in his/her year in a working class area with little expectation of going to university is more of an achievement than an upper-middle class kid churning out 500-odd points in a fee-paying school.

    You are mistaken money with privilege.

    While that sounds good there are too many problems with it, in fact any interference with the system has faults, not least that people always find ways around any system.


  • #36
    humbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    It's a bit less relevant but I don't agree with the view that you could have been born into any family. You are the product of your parents and their parents, you are continuing their genetic line and starting where their fortune lies at the point of your birth. It's not a lottery, if you were born into a different family you would be a product of their family line, you would share their characteristics and their fortune.


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  • #37
    Jackson Jolly Gorilla
    Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭ Jackson Jolly Gorilla


    humbert wrote: »
    It's a bit less relevant but I don't agree with the view that you could have been born into any family. You are the product of your parents and their parents, you are continuing their genetic line and starting where their fortune lies at the point of your birth. It's not a lottery, if you were born into a different family you would be a product of their family line, you would share their characteristics and their fortune.

    You're being pedantic and have missed the point. It's a lottery in that nobody chooses the circumstances they're born into.


  • #38
    Crushed Dry Ice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18 ✭Crushed Dry Ice


    St.Spodo wrote: »
    I've always thought that the private school system has acted as a tool to perpetuate inequality. It's no coincidence that most private school graduates go on to the main universities, while most in working class areas with no great tradition of sending people to university don't. I think it's important that that is rectified in some way, as I've always instinctively felt that everyone should be given the same chance in education. One way we could improve this is quotas; when you think about it a student achieving the highest Leaving Cert points in his/her year in a working class area with little expectation of going to university is more of an achievement than an upper-middle class kid churning out 500-odd points in a fee-paying school.

    I disagree, I feel the government should provide an adequate level of education which gives students the opportunity to succeed in their chosen career.

    If parents want to pay for additional educational support that's their own business. They can spend their own hard earned money how they wish.


  • #39
    Gott
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭Gott


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I do think that people born into a privileged background have in fact won a lottery of sorts.

    Some people work hard every day of their lives to get rich, others win the lottery.
    And by the same token, some people need to work harder than others to achieve the same in terms of education and job prospects.

    That is true, certainly looking at underprivileged African Americans in cities like Detroit or wherver, they have almost no choices at all with what they do with their lives.

    But positive discrimination wouldn't change anything. There should be more opportunities made available and perhaps some kind of programme for identifying bright students in bad areas, but doing so at the expense of middle class students who are equally talented is unfair to them.

    Same with the whole put more women in the Dáil quota.
    How's that going to help the country? Should be people with the best ideas who get in. If anything, a quota would make me vote solely for the male candidtaes, just to protest it.


  • #40
    humbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    Jackson Jolly Gorilla wrote: »
    You're being pedantic and have missed the point. It's a lottery in that nobody chooses the circumstances they're born into.
    I have replied to the original point (which I understand just fine) and wished to make an additional point which seems to have been lost on you.


  • #41
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    Crushed Dry Ice wrote: »
    I disagree, I feel the government should provide an adequate level of education which gives students the opportunity to succeed in their chosen career.

    If parents want to pay for additional educational support that's their own business. They can spend their own hard earned money how they wish.

    My problem with that is that additional education support translates as a means of giving children lucky enough to be born into wealthy homes a better chance of achieving academic and later career success. For me, the essence of the private school system is so that rich people will remain rich. Education should be equally strong across the board.


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  • #42
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    That's why it's a lottery. Take two newborn babies being driven home by their parents, pulling out the gates of St Vincent's Hospital.

    One car contains a family of multi-millionaires living off inherited wealth, the other car contains a family from a very poor family, with no assets, living on welfare. The two cars collide, and, tragically, all of the parents die. Our story is left with two orphans.

    Although these babies both find themselves orphaned, legally, their fortunes have become radically different. The baby from the wealthy family will be legally entitled to a substantial share of his dead parents' wealth to raise and educate him in privilege. The baby of the poor family is entitled to nothing of the sort.

    What I am trying to illustrate is that this State establishes privilege as a birthright.

    Birth is a lottery. The benefits can be overwhelming, but the misfortunes can be devastating.

    And which one of this kids becomes a greater contributor to society when they grow up? You don't know. I don't know. No one knows.

    What do you suggest we do? Deny one child their oppurtunities because you perceive they don't deserve them, or euthanise one because they are doomed from the start anyway?


  • #43
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    No way, the less people I have to climb over to get to the top the better!


  • #44
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    mariaalice wrote: »
    You are mistaken money with privilege.

    While that sounds good there are too many problems with it, in fact any interference with the system has faults, not least that people always find ways around any system.

    The system of middle-class people dominating universities such as TCD and UCD has its flaws.


  • #45
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    And which one of this kids becomes a greater contributor to society when they grow up? You don't know. I don't know. No one knows.
    There was no consequentialist end to my post, although I don't believe the benefits of privileged education and a similarly enriched environment need much elaboration.

    I am merely observing that material privilege is a legally enshrined birthright in this... Republic.
    What do you suggest we do? Deny one child their oppurtunities because you perceive they don't deserve them, or euthanise one because they are doomed from the start anyway?
    I believe in a greater level of wealth redistribution, yes.


  • #46
    Nemeses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Nemeses


    Question please, Where did the term "Birth Lottery" comes from? It sounds very misleading..


  • #47
    IM0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    gramar wrote: »
    Not so! It's all about how you lived in a previous life. Do good deeds and and you'll get a better start in the next one. If you're born into destitution or handicapped you're paying for your sins in a previous life.

    glen? that you?


  • #48
    Gott
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭Gott


    Nemeses wrote: »
    Question please, Where did the term "Birth Lottery" comes from? It sounds very misleading..


    I'm guessing Tumblr, the wellspring for social justice movements on the internet.


  • #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nemeses wrote: »
    Question please, Where did the term "Birth Lottery" comes from? It sounds very misleading..

    Look up John Rawls A theory of justice.. wiki has a good over view of the topic.


  • #50
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    And which one of this kids becomes a greater contributor to society when they grow up? You don't know. I don't know. No one knows.

    What do you suggest we do? Deny one child their oppurtunities because you perceive they don't deserve them, or euthanise one because they are doomed from the start anyway?

    How about just try and give both of them every chance and option we can, regardless of how much money they have at their disposition?

    Or is that notion too outlandish?


  • #51
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    no society should be equal birth should not be a source of privilege there should be true equality of opportunity we could start by ensuring everyone gets the same educational chances not just simply putting a quota on things


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  • #52
    gramar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,045 ✭✭✭✭gramar


    Originally Posted by gramar viewpost.gif
    Not so! It's all about how you lived in a previous life. Do good deeds and and you'll get a better start in the next one. If you're born into destitution or handicapped you're paying for your sins in a previous life.

    IM0 wrote: »
    glen? that you?


    Eileen...? That you? I knew I could feel your presence.


  • #53
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Shenshen wrote: »
    How about just try and give both of them every chance and option we can, regardless of how much money they have at their disposition?

    Or is that notion too outlandish?

    Yeah, it is. Only ideas that provoke ire and outrage are welcome around here. :)


  • #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    no society should be equal birth should not be a source of privilege there should be true equality of opportunity we could start by ensuring everyone gets the same educational chances not just simply putting a quota on things

    While that is a good and something for society to aim for, how do you account for the privilege of back ground/birth ( nothing what so ever to do with money ) How do you account for parental attitude to education, how do account for milieu someone grows up in. The actual education received in the school building is only one factor.


  • #55
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    our capitalist economy requires menial workers, domestic or imported, so social mobility while an admirable goal, isn't always possible.


  • #56
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    mariaalice wrote: »
    While that is a good and something for society to aim for, how do you account for the privilege of back ground/birth ( nothing what so ever to do with money ) How do you account for parental attitude to education, how do account for milieu someone grows up in. The actual education received in the school building is only one factor.

    A common misconception appears to be that just because an ultimate objective is practically unfeasible, the broader ambition is not to be embarked upon at all.

    Obviously this is not the case. Society invariably makes attempts at goals which have value so long as they are pursued, but which may be ultimately unattainable. Social justice is just one example of this. Yes, there will never be total social justice, and total equality. But it is the pursuit of such an ambition, to get as far along that road as we can in our lifetimes, that is important.


  • #57
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Do you believe you are entitled to the benefits that the birth lottery may have given you, for example if you are born in to a middle class family and because of that are given the befits of middle class parenting and a very good education( not necessarily a fee paying school) are you entitled to those benefits because of the birth lottery or do you believe for the good of society the effect of the birth lottery have to ameliorated in some way.

    One example would be reserving a certain percentage of place on Medical degrees for applicants from less advantaged back grounds and with lower entry requirements, in other words take away some of the advantages of your middle class background and pass it on to someone who dose not have those advantages.

    Having read through a lot of the post here and having done a bit of study on this in the past, a lot of times the people in lower class are there for a reason. My father was born into working class, lost his arm at 17 but yet went on to educate himself while working and rose to be a director of a company.

    I have been born better off, but have not had as much success. I know other people born better off than me who have made a job out of living of thier parents, and guys who are poor by comparison who are now running sizable companies with decent money.

    I think most of the time you get out of life what you put in. I would think more that a brain lottery would be a huge deciding factor in life


  • #58
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    mariaalice wrote: »
    While that is a good and something for society to aim for, how do you account for the privilege of back ground/birth ( nothing what so ever to do with money ) How do you account for parental attitude to education, how do account for milieu someone grows up in. The actual education received in the school building is only one factor.

    i never mentioned money. every child should be viewed the same in school ( we all know teachers who were happy to let working class children do little but pushed middle class children). quotas could help in the short term by allowing more people from disadvantaged backgrounds to become doctors' barristers ect the next generation would see that the can enter high level professions.

    however it is difficult when the worst off such as minorities and poor people are always vilified in the media. the change needs to be supported by those with power which I can't see happening because It would involve giving up their privileges.

    I live in hope that we will one day recognise that society is fundamentally unequal and we will recognise that meritocracy is a lie


  • #59
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    allibastor wrote: »
    Having read through a lot of the post here and having done a bit of study on this in the past, a lot of times the people in lower class are there for a reason. My father was born into working class, lost his arm at 17 but yet went on to educate himself while working and rose to be a director of a company.

    I have been born better off, but have not had as much success. I know other people born better off than me who have made a job out of living of thier parents, and guys who are poor by comparison who are now running sizable companies with decent money.

    I think most of the time you get out of life what you put in. I would think more that a brain lottery would be a huge deciding factor in life

    Right, there is definitely a nature as well as a nurture influence over life prospects. No doubt about that.

    That doesn't mean we completely ignore those nurture aspects; attempts at correcting for nurture advantages in children is well within our capability.


  • #60
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    allibastor wrote: »
    Having read through a lot of the post here and having done a bit of study on this in the past, a lot of times the people in lower class are there for a reason. My father was born into working class, lost his arm at 17 but yet went on to educate himself while working and rose to be a director of a company.

    I have been born better off, but have not had as much success. I know other people born better off than me who have made a job out of living of thier parents, and guys who are poor by comparison who are now running sizable companies with decent money.

    I think most of the time you get out of life what you put in. I would think more that a brain lottery would be a huge deciding factor in life

    you ignore the vast amount of people who work hard just to be able to stay poor. education is learned so your brain lottery idea is flawed. many can not afford to better there position in life because life gets in the way. people lose out through no fault of their own

    this is why we need to stop supporting the myth that meritocracy exists in any significant form


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  • #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think social justices is a good thing, but it is full of contradictions that are never fully explored or else persuasive but flawed argument are used to support the ideas of social justices such as.

    For example the argument that instead of me using all my energy to hoard and guard all my property and privileges, I could/should be persuaded by negation to share what I have because then we would all be better off, because if you get some of my good/privileges ( by persuading me to give them up ) I wouldn't have to use all my energy time guarding what I have because now that I have given you some you wont have to steal it from me.

    My positions is that human nature is essentially selfish and we will alway think me and mine first.


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