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Communion and Confirmation grants scrapped...
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I certainly don't want an irreligious or anti-religious school for my children. One of the reasons that I live in Ireland is because it is a predominantly Christian country ... and this facilitates my children being brought up within a Christian cultural environment, including their school environment. If I wanted a predominantly Muslim environment for myself and my children I'd have lived in Saudia Arabia and if I wanted a Secular environment, I'd have gone to Soviet Russia.
No one is suggesting an anti-religious school environment. Why should Muslims have to move to Saudi Arabia if they want to have a school with a Muslim ethos? Is this not a touch hypocritical?
No you're not. The government isn't obliged to raise parents children in any given faith for them. The alternative is that schools would teach a broad religious curriculum that doesn't favour any one religion, i.e. secularism. The very model you are so opposed to because Christianity would be raised above other religions. Secularism doesn't undermine your faith unless making children aware of other faiths is a problem.As a taxpayer, I'm perfectly entitled to have a state-funded education for my children of my choosing ... and I choose a Christian ethos.
The alternative model is that myself and my fellow Christians are taxed to pay for a school system for my children that undermines and denies my beliefs at every turn.
That's pretty much how a secular education would work. Kids learn about the different ideologies in the classroom. But you don't want that type of school, you want Christian schools.I also have no problem with Muslims (or indeed Atheists) saying that Jesus Christ isn't God to my children, as long as they are happy for my faith belief that He is God and can Save them to also be taught to their children. That's what multi-cultural respect should be all about ... but seldom is.
Because you are raising non-Christians in the Christian faith in a public school. This is against the parents wishes. Which is a concern you yourself have expressed regarding your own children. I find it odd that you wouldn't appreciate that problem.Why?
Good. Maybe we can build upon this agreement.I have no problem with that, provided the beliefs of all religions are fairly and properly presented.
You're moving the goalposts. We were talking about a Christian ethos school, not a secular school that would have religious folk come in to talk to the religion classes. I fail to see how suggesting that we have schools that teach about a variety of religions (which would include Christianity) is disrespectful to Christianity other than it is no long in a place of privilege.... why would a pastor calling to a school and talking about Jesus Christ not be showing respect for non-Christians. I would suggest that any intolerance expressed about this, is actually showing disrespect for Christians ... and not the other way around, as you suggest.
How exactly does that work considering over 95% of primary schools are Christian ethos?We need to also bear in mind that Christians have never objected to secular beliefs and working assumptions being taught both overtly and covertly throughout the school curriculum ... so it should be sauce for the goose and sauce for the gander.
If you can read this, you're too close!
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Secular Schools that ban all religious expression within their walls can objectively be described as anti-religion.No one is suggesting an anti-religious school environment. Why should Muslims have to move to Saudi Arabia if they want to have a school with a Muslim ethos? Is this not a touch hypocritical?
... and Muslims IMO are entitled to have their relgious beliefs and ethos respected by the provision of state funds to any schools that they may set up and with due respect and provision made for their religious beliefs within other schools that their children may be attending.
... and how do they do this by banning all religious expression ... even an innocuous headscarf, like the French Secularists have done?No you're not. The government isn't obliged to raise parents children in any given faith for them. The alternative is that schools would teach a broad religious curriculum that doesn't favour any one religion, i.e. secularism.
I have said (repeatedly, at this stage) that I have no problem ... indeed I welcome, my children being taught about all beliefs and none when it is done in a fair and proper manner.The very model you are so opposed to because Christianity would be raised above other religions. Secularism doesn't undermine your faith unless making children aware of other faiths is a problem.
The people who seem to have a problem with religion ... to the point of banning it from schools are the Secularists.
Secular schools ban all religious expression on their premises ... and I quite frankly don't believe that they would be willing or able to deliver a balanced and fair account of different religious beliefs ... indeed your use of the word 'ideologies' in relation to faith indicates that it could be quite a negative and very limited presentation, and with the Secular 'ideology' allowed unquestioned 'free reign' throughout the rest of the school day, every day.That's pretty much how a secular education would work. Kids learn about the different ideologies in the classroom. But you don't want that type of school, you want Christian schools.
I appreciate the problem ... but the answer most certainly isn't the compulsory indoctrination of Christian children with the tenets of practical Atheism to the exclusion of all other beliefs.Because you are raising non-Christians in the Christian faith in a public school. This is against the parents wishes. Which is a concern you yourself have expressed regarding your own children. I find it odd that you wouldn't appreciate that problem.
Hope springs eternal ... but I'm not holding my breath on it.Good. Maybe we can build upon this agreement.
My question is how this is to be achieved in a school system that bans religion from its premises and refuses to avail of the services of people like religious pastors, who are the experts on the beliefs of their respective religions.You're moving the goalposts. We were talking about a Christian ethos school, not a secular school that would have religious folk come in to talk to the religion classes. I fail to see how suggesting that we have schools that teach about a variety of religions (which would include Christianity) is disrespectful to Christianity other than it is no long in a place of privilege.
It sounds like any religion class in a Secular School (assuming they bother with one in the first place) could easily become a de-bunking session of religions from a secular perspective, rather than a fair persentation of the beliefs of various religions ... and my interactions (and the interactions of other Christians) with Secularists and Atheists on this forum, makes me conclude that this would almost certainly be the case.
It works through the infiltration of Secular ideas into the school curriculum (concepts like what can be sensed is all there is ... or God isn't necessary to explain how the Universe originated ... or morality is relative to the beliefs of the individual).How exactly does that work considering over 95% of primary schools are Christian ethos?
... and given the fact that 90% of the population are Christian, a 90 odd percentage of Irish schools with a Christian ethos isn't all that surprising IMO.0 -
No they can't. Anti-religion is opposition to religion. Not displaying religious iconography doesn't make a school anti-religious.Secular Schools that bans all religious expression within their walls can objectively be described as anti-religion.
Ireland doesn't have a secular school system, so if schools are banning the headscarf you best take it up the Catholic school boards.... and how does it do this by banning all religious expression ... even an innocuous headscarf?
And once again, Ireland doesn't have a secular school system. Religion definitely isn't banned from Irish schools as they are almost entirely Christian. Even if we Ireland does role out secular schools does not mean that religion will be banned from the school. We have been discussing the opposite so far, i.e. schools would educate about more religions rather than less.I have said (repeatedly, at this stage) that I have no problem ... indeed I welcome, my children being taught about all beliefs and none when it is done in a fair and proper manner.
The people who seem to have a problem with religion ... to the point of banning it from schools are the Secularists.
But ideologies is appropriate as not all students would be religious. Should I just ignore them?Secular schools ban all religious expression on their premises ... and I quite frankly wouldn't trust them to be willing or able to deliver a balanced and fair account of different religious beliefs ... indeed your use of the word 'ideologies' in relation to faith indicates that it could be quite a negative and very limited presentation, and with the Secular 'ideology' allowed wall to wall free reign throughout the school day, every day. The problem seems to be that you have strong anti-secularism opinions.
I haven't suggested such a thing. I repeat, I suggesting a more rounded education about all the major religions. I would appreciate if you address your complaints of atheist indoctrination to someone who supports such a thing, although I've never seen such a poster on the site.I appreciate the problem ... but the answer most certainly isn't the compulsory indoctrination of Christian children with the tenets of practical Atheism to the exclusion of all other beliefs.
So you've already made up your mind based on your anti-secularism opinions. Why would a religion class be spent de-bunking religion? It's a redundant class in that case as it's not studying the religions. You're essentially poisoning the well.My qustion is how this is to be achieved in a school system that bans religion from its premises and refuses to avail of the services of people like religious pastors, who are the experts on the beliefs of their respective religions.
It sounds like any religion classes in a Secular School (assuming they bother with one in the first place) could easily become a de-bunking session of religions from a secular perspective, rather than a fair persentation of the beliefs of various religions ... and my interactions (and the interactions of other Christians) with Secularists and Atheists on this forum, makes me conclude that this would almost certainly be the case.
That's a discussion for the creationist thread rather than this one.It works through the infiltration of Secular ideas into the school curriculum (concepts like what can be sensed is all there is ... or God isn't necessary to explain how the Universe originated ... or morality is relative to the beliefs of the individual).
In a modern democracy it sure is. Maybe it's okay for the society of last century but it's not appropriate in this day and age. Public schools should not be carrying out religious instruction on behalf of the Christian ( or any other religious) church. It is the responsibility of the Church and parents to see to the religious development of the children.... and given the fact that 90% of the population are Christian, a 90 odd percentage of schools with a Christian ethos isn't all that surprising IMO.If you can read this, you're too close!
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Banning the expression of religion is the text-book definition of being anti-religion.No they can't. Anti-religion is opposition to religion. Not displaying religious iconography doesn't make a school anti-religious.
You're correct that Ireland doesn't have a secular school system, at least not just yet.Ireland doesn't have a secular school system, so if schools are banning the headscarf you best take it up the Catholic school boards.
Irish schools (both Protestant and Roman Catholic) don't ban Muslim children from expressing their religious culture in school ... but the French Secularists do ... and therein lies the issue of religious intolerance amongst Secularists (and not Christians of any denomination)
Are you saying that Irish Secularists will behave more tolerantly of religious expression in schools that their French and American counterparts have done?And once again, Ireland doesn't have a secular school system. Religion definitely isn't banned from Irish schools as they are almost entirely Christian. Even if we Ireland does role out secular schools does not mean that religion will be banned from the school. We have been discussing the opposite so far, i.e. schools would educate about more religions rather than less.
The talk about 'taking religion out of schools' on this thread would indicate not!!
Ironically, I have great respect for liberal Atheism ... it is is intolerant illiberal Secular twin that I have serious issues with.But ideologies is appropriate as not all students would be religious. Should I just ignore them? The problem seems to be that you have strong anti-secularism opinions.
I see ... we're now going to have 'all the major religions' taught in Secular Schools ... despite the fact that religion is going to be banned from these schools ... and religious personnel who are experts on the beliefs of their respective religions are also going to be banned from the school premises.I haven't suggested such a thing. I repeat, I suggesting a more rounded education about all the major religions. I would appreciate if you address your complaints of atheist indoctrination to someone who supports such a thing, although I've never seen such a poster on the site.
Please excuse me if I don't share your enthusiasm on the religious nature of Secular Schools.
The Secularists spend most of their time on these threads and anywhere else they have the opportunity, trying to debunk religious belief ... so I doubt if they 'will change their spots' when it comes to any religion classes they might organise in any schools they control.So you've already made up your mind based on your anti-secularism opinions. Why would a religion class be spent de-bunking religion? It's a redundant class in that case as it's not studying the religions. You're essentially poisoning the well.
It's pertinent to this thread as well ... but to avoid any overlap I'm happy to confine my comments to secular ideas that what can be sensed is all there is ... and morality being relative to the beliefs of the individual.That's a discussion for the creationist thread rather than this one.
Public schools should be carrying out the wishes of the parents, irrespective of what century we happen to be living in!!!In a modern democracy it sure is. Maybe it's okay for the society of last century but it's not appropriate in this day and age. Public schools should not be carrying out religious instruction on behalf of the Christian ( or any other religious) church. It is the responsibility of the Church and parents to see to the religious development of the children.
Where there is a conflict between parents on what they wish to be carried out, then respect and parity of esteem (and not solely the views of one set of parents) should be the way of resolving any conflict.0 -
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Agreed. But not displaying religious iconography in a school where they have religion classes cannot logically be called anti-religion. You're answering/attacking something I haven't said.Banning the expression of religion is the text-book definition of being anti-religion.
Am I supposed to apologise for the French?You're correct that Ireland doesn't have a secular school system, at least not just yet.
Irish schools (both Protestant and Roman Catholic) don't ban Muslim children from expressing their religious culture in school ... but the French Secularists do ... and therein lies the issue of religious intolerance amongst Secularists (and not Christians of any denomination) There are other secular countries I'm sure that don't follow Frances example. Why do you presume that Ireland must follow in the footsteps of France?
When compared to a school system that doesn't teach students about any religion other than Christianity? Do you not see the irony in you being so anti-secularism when the Christian schools do exactly what you fear of secular schools? Why can't a model that sits as a happy medium of the two not exist?Are you saying that Irish Secularists will behave more tolerantly of religious expression in schools that their French and American counterparts have done?
The talk about 'taking religion out of schools' on this thread would indicate not!!
how exactly is a country that allows freedom of religion and doesn't engage in religious indoctrination (as per Catholic schools currently) illiberal?Ironically, I have great respect for liberal Atheism ... it is is intolerant illiberal Secular twin that I have serious issues with.
Are you having a conversation with a third poster?I see ... we're now going to have 'all the major religions' taught in Secular Schools ... despite the fact that religion is going to be banned from these schools ... and religious personnel who are experts on the beliefs of their respective religions are also going to be banned from the school premises.
Please excuse me if I don't share your enthusiasm on the religious nature of Secular Schools. Because I've repeatedly (to almost the point of frustration) stated I'm not suggesting removing the removal of religion from schools. So address that problem to the appropriate poster or stop misrepresenting me, which ever the case may be. Thank you in advance.
This is just anti-secularism paranoia tbh.The Secularists spend most of their time on these threads trying to debunk religious belief ... so I doubt if they 'will change their spots' when it comes to any religion classes they might organise in schools controlled
Primary schools have philosophy classes?It's pertinent to this thread as well ... but to avoid any overlap I'm happy to confine my comments to secular ideas that what can be sensed is all there is ... and morality being relative to the beliefs of the individual.
But it's not a matter of education. It's religious instruction. Parents must bear some responsibility for their childrens upbringing. There are some topics/subjects that are beyond the remit of a public school.Public schools should be carrying out the wishes of the parents, irrespective of what century we happen to be living in!!!
I don't see how that can happen while there is an almost exclusively Christian ethos public school system. Secularism is much closer to a parity of esteem than the current system will ever be.Where there is a conflict between parents on what they wish to be carried out, then respect and parity of esteem (and not solely the views of one set of parents) should be the way of resolving any conflict.If you can read this, you're too close!
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