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Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

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Comments

  • #452
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Hardly the exact same thing. He was in dispute about amanagement fee to a private management company in Portugal. That's a just a little bit different to refusing to pay your taxes, isn't it?

    He said, and I quote, "Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?"

    No I wouldn't Phil. ;)


  • #453
    Hijpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Hardly the exact same thing. He was in dispute about a management fee to a private management company in Portugal. That's a just a little bit different to refusing to pay your taxes, isn't it?

    Principle is the same, he wasnt happy with the service so he didnt pay. We arnt happy with sloppy management of the countries finances so we shouldnt pay.


  • #454
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    SamHall wrote: »
    He said, and I quote, "Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?"

    No I wouldn't Phil. ;)
    Hijpo wrote: »
    Principle is the same, he wasnt happy with the service so he didnt pay. We arnt happy with sloppy management of the countries finances so we shouldnt pay.
    What other taxes are you withholding on that basis? And have you informed revenue that you are in dispute with them?


  • #455
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I fit into your criteria of what is poor.

    This statement bemuses me. On the one hand, you staunchly defend the governments actions of charging a rent to people for something that those people will have spent most of their lives paying for(family home)by way of a mortgage, then on the other hand you come out with the above. What's that about.


  • #456
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    darkhorse wrote: »
    What's that about.
    I was pointing out how ridiculous cageyeuclid's definition of poverty is.


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  • #457
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You've never changed your mind about anything whatsoever over a 19-year period?

    But, fast forward to 2011, and FG still thought it was unfair, as was in their manifesto.


    Funding Local Government:

    Fianna Fail's proposal, now endorsed by the Labour Party, to introduce by 2014 an annual, recurring residential property tax on the family home is unfair.


  • #458
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Let's get one thing straight Phoebas.

    Last year the gov't introduced the household charge, imo it was merely a data buildingng exercise to see who owned what, what it was worth, and therefore start could be extracted from them.', many people though refused to A, throw more money to a govt that had no accountability as to where the money actually headed off to, and how it was spent. Others decided that the council's (who privatised almost every service to outside contractors as they could) weren't justified in getting further money to fund below par services, from council's with managers on 150+ salaries etc.

    The govt then (admitted failure with the hhc) passed the collection on to revenue in the hope it would scare people into paying (I'm paye, so don't give a flying one spot them), or as a dirty, sly move, refuse to issue tax clearance certs to those self employed etc.

    I'm not happy with the service I'm being asked to fund via the lpt, therefore I'm refusing to pay it. I can only hope enough off my fellow citizens sore the same courage and show a govt, only there by default, and only supported by one third of the population stand their ground too. They might very well take it from me forcibly. That it's a risk I'm willing to take tbh.

    FG will be resigned to the political scrap heap over their lies and bullying in a few years. History won't be kind to Kenny and Gilmore, and rightfully so.

    Seeing as you ask though, I've gotten rid of the tv (watch most shows/movies on the laptop/Xbox via a monitor) so that's a cheerio to The 'RTE tax' which I didn't think was worth it.


  • #459
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I was pointing out how ridiculous cageyeuclid's definition of poverty is.

    Or laughing at people that may be less fortunate than yourself?


  • #460
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    darkhorse wrote: »
    But, fast forward to 2011, and FG still thought it was unfair, as was in their manifesto.


    Funding Local Government:

    Fianna Fail's proposal, now endorsed by the Labour Party, to introduce by 2014 an annual, recurring residential property tax on the family home is unfair.







































































    And from 1994:proptax2.jpg


  • #461
    Hijpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    Phoebas wrote: »
    What other taxes are you withholding on that basis? And have you informed revenue that you are in dispute with them?

    None, which reinforces my point that nobody minds paying money aslong as they are in reciept of something of some kind of standard worthy of the collective money paid. I am of the opinion (as are others) that collectively paye, prsi, usc, carbon taxes, insurance levies, VAT, motor tax and all the rest should be enough to run a country within its means if the money collected is being managed efficiently. Are they still paying for storage of all thise evoting machines that were never used? How much are they paying england to store our gold reserves?

    Enda kenny said that they will sell non stratigic assets, they sold the forests, they give away oil and gas, they are giving up land to build massive wind farms to power a different country. So does the state own ANY stratigic assets? Are the people of ireland ie: The work force there only stratigic assets?


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  • #462
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A tax is a tax, nobody particularly likes paying taxes but they are necessary to run a modern state.

    Repeating quotes from twenty years ago isn't going to change that.

    I dont think its as simple as that.

    It is a brand new tax on something which up to recently people were encouraged by government to "buy into"; Get on the property ladder etc etc. And they did, in droves.

    It is something of a slap in the face for those who fell for it to now be told by another government which does not appear to have all the answers either: "Look, we need another few bob off ye for that house you bought."

    People cannot be treated that way.


  • #463
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    The poor, pro rata pay much much more of their income on VAT than the rich actually.
    The Property Tax may need some tweeking but it is essentially a necessary and valid form of taxation.

    Valid does not mean just, fair and caring ..... wouldn’t LPT tweaked to €15,000 a year (going up and up) be equally and “essentially a necessary and valid form of taxation” ...so that this lazy government could eventually grab all your property (on your demise) .... your statement with no argument does not stand up.

    If you all think I am mad, then you do not remember the old rates, where 10 weeks wages (appox.) charge (yearly going up and up) was the norm.
    That works out at about 20%
    .
    That would mean 20% of €65,000 or €13,000 yearly for each member of the Association of Higher Civil Public Servants.
    Wheyyyy!!!! would not that be a rough justice ..... 20% instead of the miserable 4% they refused to accept.

    My thinking is rational ... anyone who thinks this LPT is just, fair and caring must be in a very good job; otherwise they would fear the extortionate rate that LPT in line with all other unrestrained tax is likely to attain. Attained due to excessive and unrestrained govt expenditure and political greed.

    This LPT is Unjust, Unfair and Cruel


  • #464
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    He lied period. And now we have the scenario, of taking between 5.5 & 8% off those higher paid PS's and giving it back in 2 insalments in 4-5 years time??? FFS, who knows a) who will be in power then & b) what the state of the economy will be in 4-5 years. More lies/deceptions in the offing???

    Stangely, considering the theme of my posts ... I think Enda was telling the truth way back then .... and is now letting others do the dirty work, while he still knows
    This LPT is Unjust, Unfair and Cruel ... how about that for leadership???


  • #465
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I was pointing out how ridiculous cageyeuclid's definition of poverty is.

    I hate those who missquote ... I did not define POOR ... I merely included those very hardpressed, who would eventually be presented with an extortionate LPT ... and if LPT succeeds it will eventually come to that.

    We already know that after govt salary cuts there are quite a few highly paid people who are unable to pay their mortgages and LPT won't help.

    This LPT is Unjust, Unfair and Cruel


  • #466
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    To be fair, people voted in the current Government. Both Labour and Fine Gael were up front about the fact that we are in the poo, and tax rises and/or spending cuts were inevitable.

    If people really wanted to vote for a party which promised more spending and less tax, they could have voted Sinn Féin.

    We all know the present govt were voted in by default (FFs didnt by and large vote) .. FG/Lab(rats) had little or no opposition then.

    The last by election pointed the way ahead ... few Lab(rats) ... therefore no FG/Lab Coalition ... and SIGH! ... a very big gain for Sinn Fein.

    What an interesting Local Election coming ???

    I have been reliably infomed that, that + / - 15% on LPT will be a reserved function for Dublin City Councillors (City Manager cannot do it).

    The local election will show This LPT is Unjust, Unfair and Cruel


  • #467
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    The poor, pro rata pay much much more of their income on VAT than the rich actually.
    QUOTE]

    This is patently false ... pro rata that is .... if you recalculate ... the big difference is the large proportion of income the poor pay for (zero VAT) food.

    I am not sure of the %s but 40% is my guess for the poors' food bill.

    This LPT is Unjust, Unfair and Cruel


  • #468
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,249 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Going Forward wrote: »
    It is a brand new tax on something which up to recently people were encouraged by government to "buy into"; Get on the property ladder etc etc. And they did, in droves.
    But it isn't a brand new tax - it is one of the oldest forms of taxation on the planet be it in the form of LPT, hearth tax, window tax or rates.

    The post immediately below yours gives someone's experiences of rates in this country.

    People bought houses for any number of reasons, I'd be amazed if you found someone for whom the deciding factor was government encouragement.


  • #469
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But it isn't a brand new tax - it is one of the oldest forms of taxation on the planet be it in the form of LPT, hearth tax, window tax or rates.

    The post immediately below yours gives someone's experiences of rates in this country......

    LPT is new in so far as it would have an unprecedented level of Cruelty levied on the poor and worse still I have more bad news.

    As regards the +/- 15% on LPT a Dublin City Councillor answered:
    “ ...this will be a reserved function of the Councillors. The normal General Purpose Grant or Local Government fund will be cut and it will force councillors to increase the charge in my view.”

    This LPT scenario gets worse and worse.

    LPT is Unjust, Unfair and Cruel


  • #470
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    cageyeuclid wrote: »
    LPT is Unjust, Unfair and Cruel

    Don't continue doing this large font slogan-painting in the forum, please. It will be infracted from now, and may lead to a ban.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #471
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    cageyeuclid wrote: »
    LPT is new in so far as it would have an unprecedented level of Cruelty levied on the poor

    It is not new - it is just the return of Domestic Rates, abolished by our friends, Fianna Fáil, in their 1977 vote-buying effort (which led to an Irish economic meltdown in the 80s, imagine that.)


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  • #472
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    It is not new - it is just the return of Domestic Rates, abolished by our friends, Fianna Fáil, in their 1977 vote-buying effort (which led to an Irish economic meltdown in the 80s, imagine that.)

    You are correct; (but from previous posts of mine) the old rates were extortionate and that is where LPT would (eventually) not be new.

    As regards the 80s "economic meltdown" I disagee, it was mostly due to a British slump and in comparison to today's fiasco it was only a minor glitch ....

    Remember the old rates went to Local Government (100%) and even after April 1978 the LG junkets didnt stop.

    LPT is Cruel to many.


  • #473
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ..... I'd be amazed if you found someone for whom the deciding factor was government encouragement.

    You are forgetting the Socially Affordable Housing (SAH). Most of these were subprime.
    I know personally of where a €395,000 apartment was offered and accepted by 2 DA recipients for €275,000 (€3,500 down payment etc.). Luckily the 2 fell out and the deal was cancelled. That apartment was lately offered for €165,000 with no takers.
    There are many many cases of SAH who are now in a seriously negative equity situation and all those SAH deals I know of were from a FG / Lab controlled Dublin City Council. I really don't know how many more in the rest of Ireland .... maybe someone can tell us. I don't blame DCC but to now "grind them" (A La Enda) is immoral and cruel.

    Bottom line ... the encouragement was very real, so now you know.

    Revenue expects Cruel LPT from them !!!


  • #474
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    It is not new - it is just the return of Domestic Rates, abolished by our friends, Fianna Fáil, in their 1977 vote-buying effort (which led to an Irish economic meltdown in the 80s, imagine that.)

    Just so we are all reading from the same page:

    In 1977 they were all trying to buy the electorate ... not just FF.

    http://www.soldiersofdestiny.org/davidbeggbetrayal.htm

    Page down a bit to what Gabriel O'Connor, published in 1999. .... Best to read the whole article.
    ......However, in view of the 1972 report and the E.S.R.I. 1975 report, it was somewhat surprising that the Coalition Government in 1976 decided to phase out domestic rates and, in 1977, the incoming Fianna Fail Government abolished domestic rates altogether.....

    In the same book .... (maybe Enda had more than a point re the constitutionality of LPT.)
    .......The position further deteriorated in 1983; following a High Court decision of July 1982 (upheld by the Supreme court in January 1984) that the collection of rates on land valuations as it operated was repugnant to the constitution. Rates on agricultural land were abolished from January 1st of that year.......

    I am going to read up on the 1982 judgement ... hope Enda was right re cruel LPT.


  • #475
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    But it isn't a brand new tax - it is one of the oldest forms of taxation on the planet be it in the form of LPT, hearth tax, window tax or rates.

    The post immediately below yours gives someone's experiences of rates in this country.

    People bought houses for any number of reasons, I'd be amazed if you found someone for whom the deciding factor was government encouragement.

    It is a new tax for the generation who bought.

    Consider the impact of the non stop mortgage prime tv advertising of the time, the related unregulated practices and Mr. Ahern's none too subtle endorsements of the property bubble.

    Bear in mind the majority of mortgage holders are repaying as per their contracts and have already paid a significant contribution to the economy.

    And what is their thanks? Tax it again. Why? Because other countries do.

    Because the Gov't has shot itself in the foot with pre election promises of no tax "increases" on labour, but that's ok we'll break different promises and party ideals and tax their houses, a window tax if you will.

    It won't be forgiven or forgotten.


  • #476
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Phoebas wrote: »
    What other taxes are you withholding on that basis? And have you informed revenue that you are in dispute with them?

    I think that you should produce you identification if you're going to ask questions like that.


  • #477
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    darkhorse wrote: »
    I think that you should produce you identification if you're going to ask questions like that.

    I should produce identification to who? How? :confused:


    Why? :confused::confused:


  • #478
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 56,719 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Don't continue doing this large font slogan-painting in the forum, please. It will be infracted from now, and may lead to a ban.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw

    What a collection of FG supporters thanked this. Made me laugh.


  • #479
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    tayto lover wrote: »
    What a collection of FG supporters thanked this. Made me laugh.
    The Forum Charter, under rule 2 Posting in Threads, states;
    This forum is for discussion and debate, we will not tolerate soapboxing. If you are here to "shout everyone down" with your opinions, we will see you as a negative contributor to the forum and will take appropriate action.
    It is not unreasonable to consider repeating the same slogan in large, bolded letters at the end of every post as shouting everyone down. Thanking Scofflaws post is merely showing gratitude that the rules are being enforced. Many taxpayers will be equally appreciative when Revenue enforces the law relating to payment of the LPT.


  • #480
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 56,719 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The Forum Charter, under rule 2 Posting in Threads, states;
    It is not unreasonable to consider repeating the same slogan in large, bolded letters at the end of every post as shouting everyone down. Thanking Scofflaws post is merely showing gratitude that the rules are being enforced. Many taxpayers will be equally appreciative when Revenue enforces the law relating to payment of the LPT.

    It's funny though that only the FG pro-tax people thanked it if it was that loud. Methinks they really detest being reminded of Enda's statement on Property Tax.

    PS

    How many have paid to date?


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  • #481
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    tayto lover wrote: »
    It's funny though that only the FG pro-tax people thanked it if it was that loud. Methinks they really detest being reminded of Enda's statement on Property Tax.

    PS

    How many have paid to date?

    The numbers are not relevant at all now, as the LPT legislation is probably the tightest ever written, to ensure maximum enforcement.

    What I find ironic and faintly amusing is the likes of John Bruton and other well heeled members of the establishment exhortating the rest of us to embrace austerity.

    Easy enough when you're in receipt of a generous state pension I suppose.

    Which does make me wonder, what exactly would be the motivation for an "ordinary Joe soap" to support further taxation on his own income?

    Does he see himself as some sort of martyr for the economic health of the nation?

    Or a party activist?


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