Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

bgrizzley · 11-05-2013 11:43AM

Good loser wrote: »

I read there the other day that the average household net wealth in Ireland is over €100,000. The average person should be well able to afford this modest tax. Many houses have more than one income coming in.

bgrizzley E1
Sam Hall E1
LeDieux E1
Darkhorse E1
Phoebas E1
Vladamir E1
Goodloser E699,994

Average E100,000

Was helping a LA tenant last week to get her LPT waiver. The good lady smokes 30 fags a day, drinks to excess and drives her own car.

and you want me to pay this tax for her?

If the citizens in every country in Europe can afford this tax we can.
Was in southern India last year - one house paid €200 per annum and another €400 per annum.

Wow its a stretch comparing Ireland to India
can you show me an example of the house please?

since we are comparing to India here is an article Times of India saying that 10% of taxed houses in Nagpur pay less than E3 PA. (its the first one i found and roughly same population as Dublin)

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-04-17/nagpur/38614621_1_crore-rs-properties

What do the bottom 10% of properties in Dublin pay?

Le_Dieux · 11-05-2013 12:15PM

darkhorse wrote: »

On that note, just have a look at this clip. Scary, isn't it? Take from it what you will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8bfDOGNboE8[/QUOTE]

FRIGHTENING stuff DH, eh?

Le_Dieux · 11-05-2013 12:20PM

Good loser wrote: »

I read there the other day that the average household net wealth in Ireland is over €100,000. The average person should be well able to afford this modest tax. Many houses have more than one income coming in.

Was helping a LA tenant last week to get her LPT waiver. The good lady smokes 30 fags a day, drinks to excess and drives her own car.

If the citizens in every country in Europe can afford this tax we can.
Was in southern India last year - one house paid €200 per annum and another €400 per annum.

What's modest about a tax that ALREADY is earmarked for a 15% hike in 1.5 years? ( Yes, it's said they can go up OR down, but LBH here, what is going to drive this extortionate tax to drop by 15%? )? ALL this news release of the 15% hike has done is drive me more into NOT paying this tax.

Phoebas · 11-05-2013 12:25PM

bgrizzley wrote: »

you envision the state selling the house out from under someone to pay the tax?

No. The Revenue will take it on transfer after death.

Phoebas · 11-05-2013 12:29PM

Le_Dieux wrote: »

What's modest about a tax that ALREADY is earmarked for a 15% hike in 1.5 years? ( Yes, it's said they can go up OR down, but LBH here, what is going to drive this extortionate tax to drop by 15%? )? ALL this news release of the 15% hike has done is drive me more into NOT paying this tax.

There have been a good few posters who say they will vote for parties who will cut the tax by 100% so I can't see what so far fetched about parties offering to cut it by 15%

Banjo String · 11-05-2013 01:44PM

Good loser wrote: »

I read there the other day that the average household net wealth in Ireland is over €100,000. The average person should be well able to afford this modest tax. Many houses have more than one income coming in.

Let the average household with a 'net wealth of €100k' pay it so. Do the rest of us get a waiver though?

You wouldn't happen to have a source for where you read it btw?

Good loser wrote: »

Was helping a LA tenant last week to get her LPT waiver. The good lady smokes 30 fags a day, drinks to excess and drives her own car.

Why does a tenant need a waiver though? The local authority are liable for the lpt, not the tenant.

Good loser wrote: »

If the citizens in every country in Europe can afford this tax we can.
Was in southern India last year - one house paid €200 per annum and another €400 per annum.

Lol tbh.

flutered · 11-05-2013 02:17PM

darkhorse wrote: »

On that note, just have a look at this clip. Scary, isn't it? Take from it what you will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8bfDOGNboE8

have not the goverment doing the same to the poor here in ireland, who got hit first, the disabled and their carers, who got hit the second time the disables, i am talking about the 2012 budget, who got hit after them, the poor, who are being softened up already for the next budget?, the recipents of childrens allowance, who will this hit the hardest?, the poor, as they need it to pay bills by kids necissetys, who will it not really effect, the people who put it in the banke ect for hollidays their kids 3rd level education, one does not need to leave ireland to see this war, also what is happening is the middle class are disappearing, they are being forced in to the poor camp, like the fairy tale once upon a time, they had a steady job, income, they had a reasonablely heavy morgage, this they could manage, now they have no job, with a large morgage, no matter who they try it cannot be repayed, whatever chancee they had is disappearing under more and more new taxes, with more new taxes on the horizon they are now really f----d.

flutered · 11-05-2013 02:27PM

Phoebas wrote: »

No. The Revenue will take it on transfer after death.

still the same, a guy/girl gets a morgage, has to retire early, works away at the morgage, cannot due to lack of income pay the hc, the gov then takes it on their demeise, so now wey have a new one, i bust my ass all my life to pay for the family home, when i die the goverment sells it, tell you what, in my case i have told the family to give it a slap of a hymac, because i am fooked if them over fed over paid and over mistake ridden shower will get whatever its worth to continue their ways.

Hijpo · 11-05-2013 06:41PM

Good loser wrote: »

I read there the other day that the average household net wealth in Ireland is over €100,000. The average person should be well able to afford this modest tax. Many houses have more than one income coming in.

Was helping a LA tenant last week to get her LPT waiver. The good lady smokes 30 fags a day, drinks to excess and drives her own car.

If the citizens in every country in Europe can afford this tax we can.
Was in southern India last year - one house paid €200 per annum and another €400 per annum.

Thats priceless, OVER €100,000?
myself and my partner work 74 hours a week between us and bring in around €46,000 per annum combined
Id love to know what jobs the average person has.

Le_Dieux · 11-05-2013 07:01PM

Hijpo wrote: »

Thats priceless, OVER €100,000?
myself and my partner work 74 hours a week between us and bring in around €46,000 per annum combined
Id love to know what jobs the average person has.

Just to prove just how far amiss from reality these GS's are in FG....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/former-taoiseach-urges-public-to-tighten-their-belts-in-attack-on-president-29258292.html

And this from the eejit who was leader over the last FG government who tried to put VAT on school shoes, and ended up out of office for 26 years or so.

Will they EVER learn? Guess they don't have to as the damn system we have in this Godforesaken country allowed Bruton to still get a damn pension of €140K/annum

What a effing mess of a country!

bgrizzley · 11-05-2013 07:07PM

Phoebas wrote: »

No. The Revenue will take it on transfer after death.

Only if there is cash to raid in the estate.Maybe they have an argument then for the executor. But how would there be cash if the person couldnt afford it in the first place? If its just the house and a beneficiary that cant afford/wont pay the tax?
No way of getting it off a dead man unless they change the legislation to sell it to discharge debt, (which IMHO will come in time, if this tax is allowed to flourish.) And no way to chase the beneficiary for it because the legislation doesnt allow ownership to be passed with out paying it.
they didnt really think this through did they?:rolleyes:

flutered · 11-05-2013 07:17PM

bgrizzley wrote: »

Only if there is cash to raid in the estate.Maybe they have an argument then for the executor. But how would there be cash if the person couldnt afford it in the first place? If its just the house and a beneficiary that cant afford/wont pay the tax?
No way of getting it off a dead man unless they change the legislation to sell it to discharge debt, (which IMHO will come in time, if this tax is allowed to flourish.) And no way to chase the beneficiary for it because the legislation doesnt allow ownership to be passed with out paying it.
they didnt really think this through did they?:rolleyes:

or perhaps a relative to get the house by word of mouth, this happened a lot in the old days, as the owner could not afford a solicitor, or even did not thrust any, the banks were not thrusted as can be seen by the way money was hidden and passed on, i know of a case where the occupier is the third occupier in a row without a will or deeds, the last one to be the regestered owner died in the very early 40s, how can the hc be collected from the present occupier, saying all that one or two of kennys advisers is imported from the states, so it is fair to assume that their way of collecting tax will become prelevent.

Phoebas · 11-05-2013 07:23PM

bgrizzley wrote: »

Only if there is cash to raid in the estate.Maybe they have an argument then for the executor. But how would there be cash if the person couldnt afford it in the first place? If its just the house and a beneficiary that cant afford/wont pay the tax?

There will be no beneficiary if the house value is less than the outstanding tax bill.
The property will be sold, the Revenue will get the cash, the 'beneficiary' will get nothing, and presumably the Revenue will write off any outstanding amount (unless there happens to be anything else left in the estate).
I don't understand what you think isn't thought through - it seems pretty straightforward to me.

Phoebas · 11-05-2013 07:36PM

Le_Dieux wrote: »

And this from the eejit who was leader over the last FG government who tried to put VAT on school shoes, and ended up out of office for 26 years or so.

This is getting very off topic, but after that FG/LAB government fell in 1982 over the VAT on children's shoes, the next government (FF) only lasted 279 days and FG and LAB were back in power after that, with John Bruton back in a ministerial position.

Phoebas · 11-05-2013 07:40PM

flutered wrote: »

or perhaps a relative to get the house by word of mouth, this happened a lot in the old days

Seems like an extreme solution to take to evade tax ... but not as extreme as getting someone to demolish your house after your death as was suggested by someone else earlier.

bgrizzley · 12-05-2013 12:05AM

Phoebas wrote: »

There will be no beneficiary if the house value is less than the outstanding tax bill.
The property will be sold, the Revenue will get the cash, the 'beneficiary' will get nothing, and presumably the Revenue will write off any outstanding amount (unless there happens to be anything else left in the estate).
I don't understand what you think isn't thought through - it seems pretty straightforward to me.

C'mon bud, its been fly by the seat of their pants since April the 1st last year. But if i have what you are saying, our fine government are going to sell homes out from under dead people if they get away with it, they'll be takin' the brass off the coffins next.:rolleyes:

As Flutered said, save yourself the price of a solicitor and just live in it.

darkhorse · 12-05-2013 12:19AM

Phoebas wrote: »

No. The Revenue will take it on transfer after death.

And this sits alright with you?

darkhorse · 12-05-2013 12:27AM

bgrizzley wrote: »

bgrizzley E1
Sam Hall E1
LeDieux E1
Darkhorse E1
Phoebas E1
Vladamir E1
Goodloser E699,994

Average E100,000
[/QUOTE]

Somehow, I don't think the pro-LPT people, including government TDs, get this.

cageyeuclid · 12-05-2013 06:39AM

Phoebas wrote: »

There have been a good few posters who say they will vote for parties who will cut the tax by 100% so I can't see what so far fetched about parties offering to cut it by 15%

Cut by 100% ... no way ... abolish Unfair, Unjust and Cruel LPT if it ever gets going .. and that seems more and more unlikely.

BTW you never answered my post ... so I ask you again

Please explain when will an OAP be better able to afford defered LPT ... are they going to get younger???

How will those on a permanent disability allowance (DA) be able to better afford defered LPT ... do you think they will all get better???

How is it just to defer LPT to special needs offspring on a permanent DA???

Do you think it is just to collect defered LPT from those just getting back to work after the debt build up of long time Soc Wel?

cageyeuclid · 12-05-2013 07:09AM

Phoebas wrote: »

No. The Revenue will take it on transfer after death.

So this lazy FG and Lab(rat) govt are setting in motion a process where they can appropriate the houses of the poor, ... RESIST .. RESIST.

So according to Phoebas LPT is quite just (and we all must pay), even if this lazy govt raises LPT to €200,000 a year and eventually using this (JUST) LPT grab the house Phoebas lives in, and he wouldn't think it cruel.
Now that would be poetic justice .... LOL

If you think that is farfatched, remember Car Tax (licence) was only IR£ 5 and it is now (for some) nearly 150 times that.

LPT is Unjust, Unfair and Cruel

cageyeuclid · 12-05-2013 07:45AM

Phoebas wrote: »

Seems like an extreme solution to take to evade tax ... but not as extreme as getting someone to demolish your house after your death as was suggested by someone else earlier.

Even if LPT becomes extortionate ??

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/senior-civil-servants-warn-they-wont-implement-policies-29258301.html

...Senior civil servants are generally earning over €65,000 and will be hit with pay cuts if the Government pushes ahead with legislation. They are the staff who the Government will depend on to implement such legislation....

e.g. LPT

I wonder if the chairman of the Association of Higher Civil Public Servants (AHCPS) Tom Allen (like Phoebas) thinks it is fair and just for the poor to be levied by a cruel LPT while his lot are refusing a small 4% cut?
Somehow, I think he is more down to earth, but is too busy trying to hold onto his own to give his view of Unjust, unfair and cruel LPT.

Phoebas · 12-05-2013 11:02AM

darkhorse wrote: »

And this sits alright with you?

bgrizzley wrote: »

C'mon bud, its been fly by the seat of their pants since April the 1st last year. But if i have what you are saying, our fine government are going to sell homes out from under dead people if they get away with it, they'll be takin' the brass off the coffins next.:rolleyes:

There's nothing unusual about creditors being paid out of the proceeds of estates. The LPT legislation doesn't alter anything substantially in this regard.

Do you think debts should die with people but assets get transferred?

barrackali · 12-05-2013 11:07AM

Phoebas wrote: »

There's nothing unusual about creditors being paid out of the proceeds of estates. The LPT legislation doesn't alter anything substantially in this regard.

Do you think debts should die with people but assets get transferred?

Some people in here actually think they can get rid of this tax if they just ignore it...good luck with that! No matter what they do they will have to pay....like everybody else.

Phoebas · 12-05-2013 11:25AM

cageyeuclid wrote: »

BTW you never answered my post ... so I ask you again

Please explain when will an OAP be better able to afford defered LPT ... are they going to get younger???

No. But the deferrals are open ended, so an OAP who is never able to afford it will never pay it.

cageyeuclid wrote: »

How will those on a permanent disability allowance (DA) be able to better afford defered LPT ... do you think they will all get better???

Ditto for OAPs.

cageyeuclid wrote: »

How is it just to defer LPT to special needs offspring on a permanent DA???

The tax doesn't get transferred to offspring and there are personal insolvency and excessive hardship amendments written into the act to deal with some of your more extreme examples.

cageyeuclid wrote: »

Do you think it is just to collect defered LPT from those just getting back to work after the debt build up of long time Soc Wel?

Do you think its just to collect outstanding credit card bills or utility bills or outstanding mortgages repayments from long term social welfare recipients getting back to work?

Le_Dieux · 12-05-2013 03:08PM

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/property-tax-dilemma-for-coalition-councillors-29259895.html

Maeve Sheehan– 12 May 2013
GOVERNMENT [COLOR=#009900 !important]party[/COLOR] candidates in next year's local elections will come under huge pressure to oppose future property tax rises after it was confirmed last week that local authorities can increase the tax bill by 15 per cent from 2015.

A hike in the dreaded home tax is likely to require the approval of councillors, putting them right at the heart of the property tax row ahead of next year's local elections. It will highlight divisions within the government parties, on the dreaded tax.
Sean Fleming, Fianna Fail spokesman on public expenditure, said he would be "amazed" if candidates running for government parties were not petitioned to vote against a tax increase in advance of the ballot. "This will play out big in the local elections," he said.
Joan Collins, the People Before Profit TD, said the anti-property tax groups plan a campaign to get government party local election candidates to declare where they stand.
"You are looking at people wanting to get a clear picture from government party candidates on where they stand on the property tax, and whether they would vote to increase the tax if they are elected."
Meanwhile, a group of Labour councillors has claimed it will seek to reduce the property tax by 15 per cent in Dublin. Dermot Lacey said: "As councillors on the ground across Dublin City we will work towards ensuring the maximum 15 per cent reduction in the property tax will be passed on to hard-pressed families."
It's not clear yet whether changes to the property tax will go to a vote of councillors. All local authority budgets have to be approved by a majority of county councillors before they are signed off.
The provision allowing local authorities to raise or drop the property tax by up to 15 per cent from January 2015 was included in the Budget. But in its information pack to householders, the Revenue Commissioners suggested that their property tax rate would be fixed for three years.
The issue arose during a Public Accounts Committee meeting last week, at which the Revenue chair, Josephine Feehily, said that councils must give notice by September next year if they intend to change the tax.
Fianna Fail accused the Government of planning to hit families with another tax increase once the local elections are out of the way.
Sean Fleming said that householders were under the impression that the tax they pay on their property valuation would remain the same until 2016, and they were not specifically told that it could, in fact, increase from the end of next year.
The Labour Party group of councillors said they wanted "some account taken of the higher property values in Dublin, including an ability to pay element, and we believe that some account should be taken of the enormous sums paid on stamp duty in the Dublin area during the property boom."
They also argued for the discretionary rate to come into effect from January 1, 2014.
Irish Independent

Hijpo · 12-05-2013 03:36PM

Phoebas wrote: »

There's nothing unusual about creditors being paid out of the proceeds of estates. The LPT legislation doesn't alter anything substantially in this regard.

Do you think debts should die with people but assets get transferred?

Revenue/government are not creditors

Phoebas · 12-05-2013 03:39PM

Hijpo wrote: »

Revenue/government are not creditors

How do you figure that?

oscarBravo · 12-05-2013 03:40PM

Hijpo wrote: »

Revenue/government are not creditors

Not only are they creditors, they are preferred creditors.

Hijpo · 12-05-2013 03:44PM

Phoebas wrote: »

How do you figure that?

In what context are you using creditor and give an example

bgrizzley · 12-05-2013 03:50PM

Phoebas wrote: »

There's nothing unusual about creditors being paid out of the proceeds of estates. The LPT legislation doesn't alter anything substantially in this regard.

Do you think debts should die with people but assets get transferred?

No but I don't think anyone should have the right to sell a family home because of a couple of hundred euros.

Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

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