Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

cageyeuclid · 10-05-2013 12:59AM

Phoebas wrote: »

Way to change the goalposts!
You didn't say anything about disposable income in your original post.

It is really loosing touch with reality to suggest that a €5 p/w cut for home owning pensioners is cruel in the current environment or to suggest that the Revenue officials involved in collecting this tax (mostly lower paid CPSU members) are 'well heeled'.

I was making a comparison between the attitude of comparitively (with OAP)well heeled pro government posters and the reality for OAPs, LPT is a VERY UNJUST TAX. ... BTW the €50 DI is dependent on warm weather.

As regards the CRUEL LPT aspect, (pls read post again) I applied it to Soc Wel recipients, for whose plight you seem to have lost touch with reality, or more likely never knew the reality for this group, that LPT is a CRUEL TAX.

I had replied to the post from Maryanne84 which shows that she is out of touch with reality to not recognise the magnitude of LPT for OAP (with her "Mansion Post" frivolous retort), a reality which will rise to an effective 20% (or more) cut before the next GE according to the depressing rises in LPT payments almost predicted by posts in here.

OAPs remember how the old LG rates went up and up, and fear a return to the same position where extortionate house rates in Dublin were so bad they could not be (and weren't) democratically levied.
Such induced LPT fear is cruel.

There are tears in my eyes when I realise that a lot of posters in here seem to not realise how The LPT is CRUEL and UNJUST to so many, and with the same posters at times more sensitive than this cruel coalition govt.. I despair of any justice.

Phoebas, is the LPT unjust or not???? ... please let me know you opinion ... you know mine.

cageyeuclid · 10-05-2013 01:42AM

Am Chile wrote: »

.... the union in revenue the cpsu is affiliated with the campaign against the property tax ....

Dear Phoebas,
I apologise as I didn't realise the above.
Of course the low paid will suffer from LPT disproportionately.
This further shows the LPT is unjust.

I really mean't to refer to those (from whom an effort was made to extract 4% a La Croke Park II) who are not CPSU, as the well heeled (with comparison to OAP and Soc Wel). I of course respect that a 4% cut would hurt those too. I think that the CPSU (low paid) were not to be levied (correct me if I have got it wrong).
Even the well heeled may have huge mortgages and in a negative equity trap and no provision re ability to pay is made for this in the LPT.

Lazy unjust governance should be opposed (and remembered).

darkhorse · 10-05-2013 01:56AM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

They can't add 15 per cent every year.

Are you sure they cant?

K-9 · 10-05-2013 02:05AM

cageyeuclid wrote: »

I was making a comparison between the attitude of comparitively (with OAP)well heeled pro government posters and the reality for OAPs, LPT is a VERY UNJUST TAX. ... BTW the €50 DI is dependent on warm weather.

Mod: Cut out this this type of posting please. You have no way of knowing if they are well heeled.

There is far too much subjective and pejorative slurring and sniping on this thread. Either discuss the topic and post or do not bother posting. Experienced posters from previous property tax threads should be very well aware of this.

Phoebas · 10-05-2013 07:37AM

cageyeuclid wrote: »

There are tears in my eyes when I realise that a lot of posters in here seem to not realise how The LPT is CRUEL and UNJUST to so many, and with the same posters at times more sensitive than this cruel coalition govt.. I despair of any justice.

Phoebas, is the LPT unjust or not???? ... please let me know you opinion ... you know mine.

Its pretty clear that I don't think its unjust. Its pretty modest really, and the deferrals will protect the worst off (your OAPs and most social welfare recipients will qualify for deferrals).
Personally I'd have preferred a site value tax and there were other variations of a property tax that were mentioned that I could have lived with, but overall I think its fair enough.
I would have also liked to see more harsh penalties for evaders, but I predict their numbers will be low.

Phoebas · 10-05-2013 07:48AM

darkhorse wrote: »

Are you sure they cant?

They can only vary it in relation to the national central rate (0.18pct). I can't quite remember if the central rate is in the legislation or can be changed by ministerial order, but its clear that, as it stands, they can't add 15pct upon 15pct.

From 1 January 2015 local authorities will
have discretion to vary the LPT
rates by +/- 15% of the national central
rate.

The ability of local authorities to vary the rate is one of the positive aspects of the LPT, as it gives local councillors more accountability for local government finances. I'd like to see this 15pct amended in the future and we'll begin to see which councils are being we'll run and which are not.

Banjo String · 10-05-2013 09:55AM

Love it.

Especially loved the bit in bold.

Others have things like ‘I have no more to give’ and ‘Do your best’.

I see they're talking about introducing legislation to forcibly cut ps workers salaries too o on the assumption cpa2 gets rejected again.

The union that represents the workers in revenue won't like that one bit. They may go on a go slow/refuse to implement some things for the govt forcibly taking cash from their pockets.

The whole things going Pear shaped guys.

bgrizzley · 10-05-2013 11:22AM

Phoebas wrote: »

Its pretty clear that I don't think its unjust. Its pretty modest really, and the deferrals will protect the worst off (your OAPs and most social welfare recipients will qualify for deferrals).
Personally I'd have preferred a site value tax and there were other variations of a property tax that were mentioned that I could have lived with, but overall I think its fair enough.
I would have also liked to see more harsh penalties for evaders, but I predict their numbers will be low.

how will deferrals protect the worse off? by the usurious adding of interest to the tax? so that someone who already cant afford this tax gets hammered on the double for being poor?

that sounds unjust to me, maybe your definition is different!

then again, the fact that you want harsher penalties for evaders, many of whom are hiding solely because they cant afford to give any more probably shows most clearly your definition of just.

barrackali · 10-05-2013 11:37AM

SamHall wrote: »

Love it.

Especially loved the bit in bold.

I see they're talking about introducing legislation to forcibly cut ps workers salaries too o on the assumption cpa2 gets rejected again.

The union that represents the workers in revenue won't like that one bit. They may go on a go slow/refuse to implement some things for the govt forcibly taking cash from their pockets.

The whole things going Pear shaped guys.

You are living in la la land with tinky winky and dipsy (sry spent 2 much time watching tellytubbies with the kid lol) if you think that is even likely to happen. There is no going back on property tax, much like the water taxes which are coming soon.

Banjo String · 10-05-2013 12:02PM

barrackali wrote: »

You are living in la la land with tinky winky and dipsy (sry spent 2 much time watching tellytubbies with the kid lol) if you think that is even likely to happen. There is no going back on property tax, much like the water taxes which are coming soon.

Seeing as the unions have already repeatedly threatened industrial action, it might be you that needs to leave tubby-land, and get back to reality Ali.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/public-servants-union-cpsu-threatens-industrial-action-586336.html

The Civil Public and Services Union, which represents lower-ranked public servants has threatened industrial action if measures in the €1bn state pay deal are enforced.

The CPSU, one of a number of bodies to pull out of crunch talks on the new pay agreement, claimed that their members have nothing more to give.

The union representing lower paid civil servants has voted unanimously to ballot for industrial action if the Government imposes any cuts in pay and conditions. The Civil Public and Services Union rejected the Croke Park II proposals last week. At its annual conference in Galway, 350 delegates passed an emergency motion calling for a ballot for industrial action up to and including full strike action if the Government moves to introduce pay cuts or changes in terms and conditions through legislation or any form of other unilateral action. The motion also opposes any attempt to "tweak" what it called the failed LRC proposals. It also calls for further campaigning for higher taxes for the wealthy. CPSU General Secretary Eoin Ronayne warned that the battle was only starting and that if the cuts are implemented, they will not be the last.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?14228-CPSU-Votes-for-Industrial-Action-Against-Cuts!-Campaigns-for-Raised-Taxes-for-the-Rich

Phoebas · 10-05-2013 02:01PM

bgrizzley wrote: »

how will deferrals protect the worse off? by the usurious adding of interest to the tax? so that someone who already cant afford this tax gets hammered on the double for being poor?

that sounds unjust to me, maybe your definition is different!

It protects the worse off by deferring the tax until they can afford it. Some level of interest was required otherwise they would be no incentive at all for people below the deferral limits, who could afford it, to elect to pay it.

bgrizzley wrote: »

then again, the fact that you want harsher penalties for evaders, many of whom are hiding solely because they cant afford to give any more probably shows most clearly your definition of just.

Its a pretty common definition of justice to want to sanction law breakers.
What would you do to them?

bgrizzley · 10-05-2013 02:34PM

Phoebas wrote: »

It protects the worse off by deferring the tax until they can afford it. Some level of interest was required otherwise they would be no incentive at all for people below the deferral limits, who could afford it, to elect to pay it.

thats fair enough but what if you can never afford it?

Its a pretty common definition of justice to want to sanction law breakers.

since when have law and justice been the same thing?

What would you do to them?

i wouldnt be adding to the debt of someone with their back to the wall anyway, especially if i was the State and had a duty of care to the vulnerable.
You cant get blood from a stone and you cant charge interest on blood that isnt there.

Hijpo · 10-05-2013 03:10PM

bgrizzley wrote: »

thats fair enough but what if you can never afford it?
.

Thats the scenario the government and the economists on boards seem to over look constantly. The cost of these taxes can and will only go in one direction and thats up, while peoples gross incomes stay the same meaning there disposable income decreases.

bgrizzley · 10-05-2013 03:26PM

Hijpo wrote: »

Thats the scenario the government and the economists on boards seem to over look constantly. The cost of these taxes can and will only go in one direction and thats up, while peoples gross incomes stay the same meaning there disposable income decreases.

i have to laugh every time i see the "+/- 15%" figure quoted the last couple of days. As if that "-" will ever see the light of day.

Phoebas · 10-05-2013 04:06PM

bgrizzley wrote: »

thats fair enough but what if you can never afford it?

Then they never pay it - it just gets taken on transfer of their estate.

bgrizzley wrote: »

i wouldnt be adding to the debt of someone with their back to the wall anyway, especially if i was the State and had a duty of care to the vulnerable.
You cant get blood from a stone and you cant charge interest on blood that isnt there.

I didn't ask you what you wouldn't do - I asked what you would do.

Le_Dieux · 10-05-2013 06:22PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Yes, but I can't see what will stop candidates from running on a platform of what they'll do the following year though.

Come on Vlad, You SERIOUSLY think anyone will buy their lies again? I can tell You this: I live in an Estate that is a GE in EVERYTHING but recognition by BFP. We are doing things ourselves to see if we can get recognition ( am not prepared to say what we are doing right now, suffice to say it IS legal:-)). This is the same Cllr who told us last year ( when they were invited to our AGM to try to justify then why we were not on the GE list, and told us to pay the €100 and it WOULD be reviewed next year - 2013). The lies we have been fed is mindboggling here.Also, I dare the FG cllr to come knocking on the doors in our Estate next year when he/she is looking for votes to be re-elected.

Hasn't a snowball's chance in hell as far as we are concerned.

Le_Dieux · 10-05-2013 06:23PM

darkhorse wrote: »

Are you sure they cant?

I too would be sceptical of this DH. But saying that, am not sure...perhaps Vlad can enlighten us?

bgrizzley · 10-05-2013 06:44PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Then they never pay it - it just gets taken on transfer of their estate.

what if their beneficiary cant afford to pay it? or transfer it because they cant afford it?

I didn't ask you what you wouldn't do - I asked what you would do.

I would change the legislation so that the already hard pressed aren't automatically criminalised because they cant afford this ill concieved tax. then i would apologise to them for all the glib remarks such as get rid of your Sky Sports, new cars and holidays.

cageyeuclid · 10-05-2013 07:07PM

Phoebas;84546693]It protects the worse off by deferring the tax until they can afford it.

Please explain when will an OAP be better able to afford defered LPT ... are they going to get younger???

How will those on a permanent disability allowance (DA) be able to better afford defered LPT ... do you think they will all get better???

How is it just to defer LPT to special needs offspring on a permanent DA???#

Do you think it is just to collect defered LPT from those just getting back to work after the debt build up of long time Soc Wel?

LPT is both UNJUST and CRUEL

cageyeuclid · 10-05-2013 07:24PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Its pretty clear that I don't think its unjust. Its pretty modest really .......

LOL .... Exactly my point .... modest for those in a good job. [I am not allowed to say "well heeled".]

But make no mistake LPT would go up and up (political greed) and be far from modest if allowed to stand ... but it won't.

LPT is UNJUST, UNFAIR and CRUEL to many.

Phoebas · 10-05-2013 08:42PM

bgrizzley wrote: »

what if their beneficiary cant afford to pay it? or transfer it because they cant afford it?

If the outstanding tax is more than the value of the property then there wouldn't be anything left to transfer, so that doesn't apply.

Zubeneschamali · 10-05-2013 10:05PM

cageyeuclid wrote: »

But make no mistake LPT would go up and up (political greed) and be far from modest if allowed to stand

Never fear! Fianna Fáil are ready and waiting to destroy our tax system and wreck our economy again!

They just have to wait until FG and Labour clean up after the last time they did that, just as they had to back when FF did away with Domestic Rates after the 77 election, wasn't it?

Am Chile · 10-05-2013 10:25PM

I see from facebook in waterford some anti property tax protesters occupied a fine gaeler office when sean kelly came along.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=627448253950347&set=vb.327428877285621&type=2&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=627450090616830&set=vb.327428877285621&type=2&theater

Good loser · 10-05-2013 11:34PM

I read there the other day that the average household net wealth in Ireland is over €100,000. The average person should be well able to afford this modest tax. Many houses have more than one income coming in.

Was helping a LA tenant last week to get her LPT waiver. The good lady smokes 30 fags a day, drinks to excess and drives her own car.

If the citizens in every country in Europe can afford this tax we can.
Was in southern India last year - one house paid €200 per annum and another €400 per annum.

darkhorse · 11-05-2013 01:12AM

Phoebas wrote: »

Its pretty clear that I don't think its unjust. Its pretty modest really, and the deferrals will protect the worst off (your OAPs and most social welfare recipients will qualify for deferrals).
Personally I'd have preferred a site value tax and there were other variations of a property tax that were mentioned that I could have lived with, but overall I think its fair enough.
I would have also liked to see more harsh penalties for evaders, but I predict their numbers will be low.

Just on your remark inside the brackets, one can only assume that, a) you are not in this country, or b) you do not like older people. Just an observation.

darkhorse · 11-05-2013 01:45AM

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Come on Vlad, You SERIOUSLY think anyone will buy their lies again? I can tell You this: I live in an Estate that is a GE in EVERYTHING but recognition by BFP. We are doing things ourselves to see if we can get recognition ( am not prepared to say what we are doing right now, suffice to say it IS legal:-)). This is the same Cllr who told us last year ( when they were invited to our AGM to try to justify then why we were not on the GE list, and told us to pay the €100 and it WOULD be reviewed next year - 2013). The lies we have been fed is mindboggling here.Also, I dare the FG cllr to come knocking on the doors in our Estate next year when he/she is looking for votes to be re-elected.

Hasn't a snowball's chance in hell as far as we are concerned.

He/She will probably just move to Meath.:D:D:D

cageyeuclid · 11-05-2013 03:22AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Never fear! Fianna Fáil are ready and waiting to destroy our tax system and wreck our economy again!?

FG austerity has done even more wrecking piled on top of what FF did, and FG are still at it, ably assisted by Lab.

May I remind all that FF are not in charge in Dublin (CC) ... Lab and FG have had a majority for years ... but even then, the City Council Manager walks all over them (A La the bins) ... will he insist on +15% onto LPT, you betcha.

Do any of you remember how extortionate the old rates system was??? I do.
Over 12 times the average weekly wage .. ( a €6,000 local tax approx. by today's values).
That is where LPT is headed for sure, should people comply.

I will vote for whomever will remove the threat of a home tax which
this Unjust, Unfair and Cruel LPT is to many, and I will do my best for democracy to prevail, so that the removers of LPT have a legimate mandate unlike this lazy and unjust govt.

darkhorse · 11-05-2013 03:47AM

cageyeuclid wrote: »

FG austerity has done even more wrecking piled on top of what FF did, and FG are still at it, ably assisted by Lab.

May I remind all that FF are not in charge in Dublin (CC) ... Lab and FG have had a majority for years ... but even then, the City Council Manager walks all over them (A La the bins) ... will he insist on +15% onto LPT, you betcha.

Do any of you remember how extortionate the old rates system was??? I do.
Over 12 times the average weekly wage .. ( a €6,000 local tax approx. by today's values).
That is where LPT is headed for sure, should people comply.

I will vote for whomever will remove the threat of a home tax which
this Unjust, Unfair and Cruel LPT is to many, and I will do my best for democracy to prevail, so that the removers of LPT have a legimate mandate unlike this lazy and unjust govt.

On that note, just have a look at this clip. Scary, isn't it? Take from it what you will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8bfDOGNboE8

cageyeuclid · 11-05-2013 03:53AM

barrackali wrote: »

...... There is no going back on property tax, much like the water taxes which are coming soon.

How come you don't remember what happened to the old water charges??? ... and there were waivers on these for the poor.

It is very simple ... the 97% compliance quoted will not ever be reached ... and processing even 25% non compliance would take years.

bgrizzley · 11-05-2013 11:17AM

Phoebas wrote: »

If the outstanding tax is more than the value of the property then there wouldn't be anything left to transfer, so that doesn't apply.

you envision the state selling the house out from under someone to pay the tax?

Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

Comments