Communion and Confirmation grants scrapped...

robp · 08-05-2013 09:58PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

This despite Germany being the most christian of nations, lead by a stridently christian regime during world war two. It seems the Germans forgot to learn something about Nazism.

RRight... That is a very dubious statement which could completely derail the thread and therefore is inappropriate. No nation is of any particular religion as all countries even Nazis Germany had diversity. I think your trying to say that Nazism was Christian. That is contradicted by the evidence but I will post a quote of Hitler

"Christianity is founded on nonsense", while "science", he says "cannot lie"

The fact is the Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers. It was not a culmination of Christianity. Of course this topic should n't even be here at all.

Zombrex wrote: »

Theses are also not secular countries.

German for example has a constitution that says religion should be taught in schools. This was born out of the idea that WWII was caused by a lack of ethical education in young Germans. It was made when the vast majority of German's were Christian.

Muslims in German are now fighting an up hill battle to gain the same style of classes.

Which just highlights exactly why you need a secular system like the US. You cannot practically cater for everyone (nor would you necessarily want to), so the only fair thing is to cater to no one.

Muslims do have success in obtaining Muslim schools. Its a question of no central organisation which has slowed the process but the Muslim community is addressing this. All countries are in a constant state of change so education must be continually reformed. The fact is if you compare public support for public education systems between the US and Germany, Germany will come streets ahead. Primary and secondary education shouldn't be centralised and thus favour diversity. The reality is one only needs about 150 children to make a school economic. It is possible to cater for almost everyone.

J C · 08-05-2013 11:36PM

VinLieger wrote: »

I have no problem with children being taught about all religions but when class times are used to promote one religions views and its ceremonies over the other like in the case of confirmations and communions thats where the problem is, especially in regard to tax being used to fund it.

I'm not sectarian in these matters ... and I certainly would prefer any Christian-focussed education for my children, in preference to an exclusively Secular Atheistic one, even if I didn't agree with every teaching of the particular Christian denomination involved.

I also don't mind my children being exposed to Secular ideas (as indeed they currently are, in school) ... but I certainly would object strongly to them being exposed to these ideas alone and without any critical evaluation of them ... on the basis of some spurious claim that only Secular Atheist's tax dollars count when it comes to funding public education and determining the curriculum to be followed.

shruikan2553 · 08-05-2013 11:39PM

If parents dont want to teach they probably should of had a child which they taught plenty of thing to such as talking and how to use the toilet, or should the state be covering that too? Religion is nothing like maths and history. 1+1=2 and Ireland being under British rule in the past are facts that dont change while religion can differ from being from a different country. Why do we need 5 different schools in each area for everyone to learn the same thing except for 1 different different class that a lot of people dont even care about?

With going to mass every week, communion, confirmation, Christmas and Easter you would think children would be learning lots about their religion and having no need for schools to be teaching it. For all the talk of having the right to follow your religion you seem to like to ignore everyone elses right not to.

J C · 08-05-2013 11:49PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

With going to mass every week, communion, confirmation, Christmas and Easter you would think children would be learning lots about their religion and having no need for schools to be teaching it. For all the talk of having the right to follow your religion you seem to like to ignore everyone elses right not to.

What exactly is the problem with Atheists children being exposed to the religions of other members of the school community?
I have no problem with my children being taught the beliefs and practices of Secular Atheism in school ... so why do you have such a 'hang-up' about your children being present when the beliefs and practices of the Christian Denominations (who are your neighbours) are being discussed?
Nobody is proposing to drag your children into a church and forcefully baptise them, or something ... so what exactly is your problem with religions (incuding their beliefs and practices) being taught in a reasonable and civil manner in schools?

Gumbi · 08-05-2013 11:50PM

J C wrote: »

I'm not sectarian in these matters ... and I certainly would prefer a Christian-focussed education for my children, in preference to a Secular Atheistic one, even if I didn't agree with every teaching of the particular Christian denomination involved.

I also don't mind my children being exposed Secular ideas in school ... but I certainly would object strongly to them being exposed to these ideas alone and without any critical evaluation of them ... on the basis of some spurious claim that only Secular Atheist's tax dollars count when it comes to funding public education and determining the curriculum to be followed.

What do you mean by "Secular Atheistic" education?

What these posters mean by such an education, is that the children are thought that there are many beliefs. Some people believe X, some Y, some Z. Some don't believe any of it at all.

Introducing the whole critical evaluation thing is a can of worms, exactly the kind we don't want in the classroom. No-one will be satisfied with this.

Regarding Jc's comment above:

I wasn't taught religion in Primary. I learned nothing of any religion except for Catholicism. And I wasn't taught it. I was told.

J C · 09-05-2013 12:07AM

Gumbi wrote: »

What do you mean by "Secular Atheistic" education?

An education that is irreligious and doesn't allow the beliefs and practices of the families within the School community to be taught, expressed and respected within the school.

Gumbi wrote: »

What these posters mean by such an education, is that the children are thought that there are many beliefs. Some people believe X, some Y, some Z. Some don't believe any of it at all.

Introducing the whole critical evaluation thing is a can of worms, exactly the kind we don't want in the classroom. No-one will be satisfied with this.

I mentioned the lack of Critical evaluation of Secularism in the context of an exclusively Secular education, where the discussion of all religion (and the criticism of irreligion) is banned, like in the American Public school model.

Gumbi wrote: »

Regarding Jc's comment above:

I wasn't taught religion in Primary. I learned nothing of any religion except for Catholicism. And I wasn't taught it. I was told.

... and do you now want to swing to the other extreme and be told about nothing but wall to wall Secularism? That may be fine for you ... but it certainly isn't fine for the 90% plus Judeo-Christian community in this country.

shruikan2553 · 09-05-2013 12:08AM

J C wrote: »

What exactly is the problem with Atheists children being exposed to the religions of other members of the school community?
I have no problem with my child being taught the beliefs and practices of Secular Atheism ... so why do you have such a 'hang-up' about your children being present when the beliefs and practices of the Christian Denominations (who are your neighbours) are being discussed?
Nobody is proposing to drag your children into a church and forcefully baptise them, or something ... so what exactly is your problem with religions (incuding their beliefs and practices) being taught in a reasonable and civil manner in schools?

RELIGIONS as in multiple is fine as long as it is being taught is a manner that says "this is what some people believe while others believe in this other thing and some people dont believe in anything like this"

It has only been about 10 years since I was in primary school and we weren't taught this, it was "this is the right religion (catholism) now its time to say 3 hail mary's and an our father." I even remember a teacher getting highly annoyed at a student who claimed that some religious thing couldnt be true.

If you dont want your children being told theres no such thing as god for hours then why should mine be told there is?

J C · 09-05-2013 12:21AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

RELIGIONS as in multiple is fine as long as it is being taught is a manner that says "this is what some people believe while others believe in this other thing and some people dont believe in anything like this"

It has only been about 10 years since I was in primary school and we weren't taught this, it was "this is the right religion (catholism) now its time to say 3 hail mary's and an our father." I even remember a teacher getting highly annoyed at a student who claimed that some religious thing couldnt be true.

If you dont want your children being told theres no such thing as god for hours then why should mine be told there is?

... I have no problem with my children being told that Atheists believe there is no such thing as God and what can be sensed is all there is ... as long as they are also taught about and allowed to express their Christian Faith. Nobody expects an Atheist child or indeed an Evangelical Christian child to recite a Marian prayer ... but I don't think it does them any injury to be present when other children do so.
I thought we were all well beyond and rid of such sectarianism.

shruikan2553 · 09-05-2013 12:43AM

If we are teaching that all these religions and viewpoints are as valid as the others and then showing children that this is the right one it is a bit counter productive. Why is their a need to express faith in schools? We dont do it in college or work. It is something you practice at home, church or other religious events. I'm not saying that children should be silenced if they mention anything that isn't 100% neutral but there is no need to go around parading 1 religion.

homer911 · 09-05-2013 09:16AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Why is their a need to express faith in schools? We dont do it in college or work.

Why not? Some of us do and all of us should. Your faith is not something you can turn on and off at a whim, your faith defines you as a person

there is no need to go around parading 1 religion.

Generally christians dont "parade" their faith - we let our faith speak for itself in how we interact with people.

This morning I passed a bunch of schoolgirls going into the local secondary school. One was wearing a Muslim headscarf. Who was parading their faith? What was interesting was that this was perfectly acceptable in a Roman Catholic school..

robp · 09-05-2013 07:23PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If parents dont want to teach they probably should of had a child which they taught plenty of thing to such as talking and how to use the toilet, or should the state be covering that too? Religion is nothing like maths and history. 1+1=2 and Ireland being under British rule in the past are facts that dont change while religion can differ from being from a different country. Why do we need 5 different schools in each area for everyone to learn the same thing except for 1 different different class that a lot of people dont even care about?

This is a misnomer as irrespective of religion there is zero possibility of there being any mass school amalgamation anytime soon even if every school adopted the one system. With the Gaelscoileanna we can see that the concept of choice in education is integral and although it is contrary to the socialist mindset choice in education is here to stay regardless of any religious trends.

Gumbi wrote: »

I wasn't taught religion in Primary. I learned nothing of any religion except for Catholicism.

There are plenty of other religions in the catholic curriculum mainly at secondary level which is a very reasonable way to approach a very complex and diverse topic

Gumbi wrote: »

And I wasn't taught it. I was told.

That is how I learnt many subjects. Its an awful impediment to learning but it says more about the teacher then the subject.

J C · 09-05-2013 07:35PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If we are teaching that all these religions and viewpoints are as valid as the others and then showing children that this is the right one it is a bit counter productive. Why is their a need to express faith in schools? We dont do it in college or work. It is something you practice at home, church or other religious events. I'm not saying that children should be silenced if they mention anything that isn't 100% neutral but there is no need to go around parading 1 religion.

We are talking about minor children here, who are at a critical stage in the formation of their opinions and outlook on life. We are not talking about young adults in College or adult colleagues in work.

Parents are the natural (Constitutionally protected) educators of their minor children ... and schools are employed by parents (through their tax money) to educate their children and thus are in loco parentis i.e. they take the place of the parent in the education of their children ... and that includes their religious and philosophical education.
If parents are Theists they have every right to expect a competent and comprehensive religious education for their children - with their beliefs and religious practices allowed to be expressed and respected in school.
Such respect should also be accorded to Atheists within the School Community ... but they don't have the right to stop the teaching of any other worldview, other their own, like they have done in public schools in America and France, for example.

J C · 09-05-2013 10:17PM

homer911 wrote: »

This morning I passed a bunch of schoolgirls going into the local secondary school. One was wearing a Muslim headscarf. Who was parading their faith? What was interesting was that this was perfectly acceptable in a Roman Catholic school..

... but it wouldn't be acceptable in many secular schools ... despite all their talk about pluralism and all that good stuff.
... so exactly who are the true pluralists and liberals ... ironically, it seems to be Roman Catholocism ... rather than secularism ... on the issue of religious freedom in school. Who would have thought it!!!

The French banned wearing headscarves in all Public Schools in 2004 ... something most women wore in Ireland less than a generation ago. If they can't tolerate the sight of a headscarf, I wonder what the Secularists would do if somebody brought a Bible or a Koran into a school under their control!!!

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2004/02/scar-f18.html

lmaopml · 10-05-2013 12:39AM

kennryyr wrote: »

Unfortunately I really don't beleive you understand what the term 'secular' means in the context being discussed.

No Kennyyr, I think you are assigning a meaning to secular based on an 'assumption' of what it 'should' be according to the Atheist worldview, and not a notion of freedom.

No one is asking for the repression of religion as you seem to think we are, we really have no problem what you teach your child on your own time.

Oh, but that's the 'assumption' being made - you think that the 'State' raises the family, and not the parents - In Ireland, the teachers act on 'behalf' of parents or in loco parentis - not on behalf of the State, or on behalf of the community, or or behalf of a section of the community who think things should just be their way despite others.

We are saying that the State should not fund money to provide education for a subject that has no grounds in reality or fact.

Well, that's just for the 'Atheist/Christian' debate thread isn't it? You might as well throw in a Spaghetti Monster or two and I could throw back that you have a 'religion' all of your very own that is trying to control the people in our society? Etc. and so on....

It is as simple as that.

One of the few things you learn is that nothing is quite as 'simple' as that in life, and obviously the most apparent is that your very own notion of simplicity is another mans idea that is based on multiple assumptions about others. That's not really simple - and I hope neither are you.

Young school children being forced to say prayers at different times of the day to worship an all powerful God to me is quite absurd and to be frank, very disturbing in the 21st century.

You speak of the 21st Century and the part you play in it like as if nobody else lives in it with a different opinion to you? No? That is rather bizarre in the 21st century, and the notion of 'freedom' that people should be able to enjoy - which includes bringing up their families not under 'Community' rule or either under 'State' rule, but under a free society that values the family. If you don't know how valuable this freedom is, than I suggest you study history.

I have empathy with people who feel there is no choice for them and would as a 'Christian' be actively supportive - I don't however understand or admire those who not only want things their way, but only see to the end of their own nose, and have no doubts whatsoever about controlling others. You can't re-write history on this Island, but we can learn from others, and the cries of offense are one thing at not having choice, but the cries of 'you should just bring up your family like me, the Atheist' is quite another.

shruikan2553 · 10-05-2013 02:00AM

People in this seem to be ok with the idea of Catholicism only as it is what they want but the idea of atheism only is terrible and is against what they want even when Catholicism only is against what every other religion wants so it is just hypocritical. You cant teach every religion as equal and support one religion at the same time but the idea of everyone having extra classes for their own religion separate from the school itself is just too much effort for people who claim to care about their religion.

robp · 10-05-2013 09:10AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

People in this seem to be ok with the idea of Catholicism only as it is what they want but the idea of atheism only is terrible and is against what they want even when Catholicism only is against what every other religion wants so it is just hypocritical. You cant teach every religion as equal and support one religion at the same time but the idea of everyone having extra classes for their own religion separate from the school itself is just too much effort for people who claim to care about their religion.

I don't know where you get that idea as no one in this thread has raised a serious criticism of ETs or VECs (no one has designed an atheist only patronage to my knowledge). The people here defending the patronage system are perfectly content with schools being adapted to suit local demand (such as some catholic schools switching), its just a case that we don't want all schools to be switched to an artificially homogeneous system which is against local demand.

Gumbi · 10-05-2013 10:47AM

robp wrote: »

I don't know where you get that idea as no one in this thread has raised a serious criticism of ETs or VECs (no one has designed an atheist only patronage to my knowledge). The people here defending the patronage system are perfectly content with schools being adapted to suit local demand (such as some catholic schools switching), its just a case that we don't want all schools to be switched to an artificially homogeneous system which is against local demand.

Over 90% of primary schools are Catholic. How can you justify this even if we concede the "in loco parentis". According to statistics, we still have a very Catholic country. Less than 90% though. And we all know how many of those are a la carte/lapsed Catholics. And the tendency of younger children's parents (whom are of a younger generation) to be less Catholic than older generations.

To have over 90% of the primary schools in Ireland indoctrinating the children of Ireland is preposterous at best.

Zombrex · 10-05-2013 10:51AM

robp wrote: »

I don't know where you get that idea as no one in this thread has raised a serious criticism of ETs or VECs (no one has designed an atheist only patronage to my knowledge). The people here defending the patronage system are perfectly content with schools being adapted to suit local demand (such as some catholic schools switching), its just a case that we don't want all schools to be switched to an artificially homogeneous system which is against local demand.

Would you be happy both funding and sending your child to an Islamic school that taught the Quran as truth and Christianity as a lie, because that fitted the "local demand" of the area you found yourself in?

Zombrex · 10-05-2013 11:01AM

robp wrote: »

Muslims do have success in obtaining Muslim schools.

With far more difficulty than Christians, and only after numerous legal battles.

robp wrote: »

Its a question of no central organisation which has slowed the process but the Muslim community is addressing this. All countries are in a constant state of change so education must be continually reformed.

Yes, it should be reformed into a purely secular system like in America. That is the only fair system. Any other system invariably requires parents to send their children to a religious school which they don't belong to. The irony of the whole situation being that the majority groups always say that shouldn't matter to the minority, but they themselves will fight tooth and nail to keep sending their children to the religious school they want.

If it matters so much to you that you send your children to the right religious school, why do you think parents of minority religions wouldn't care equally strongly about their children not going to a school that taught the "wrong" religion?

robp wrote: »

The reality is one only needs about 150 children to make a school economic. It is possible to cater for almost everyone.

Er, no it is not as you just demonstrated. If you have 149 children who are not Catholic their parents must send them to the majority religious school.

Your system requires parents of minority religious groups to send their children to the schools of the majority religious groups.

This is despite the fact that everyone pays the same taxes and the states are not supposed to favour one religion over another (even if that religion is in the majority)

Brian Shanahan · 10-05-2013 12:49PM

robp wrote: »

RRight... That is a very dubious statement which could completely derail the thread and therefore is inappropriate. No nation is of any particular religion as all countries even Nazis Germany had diversity. I think your trying to say that Nazism was Christian. That is contradicted by the evidence but I will post a quote of Hitler
The fact is the Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers. It was not a culmination of Christianity. Of course this topic should n't even be here at all.

Outside of Alfred Rosenberg (who was swiftly marginalised as he was too nutty even for the NSDAP), the Nazi hierarchy were, to a man, committed christians. And Hitler remained a good catholic up until the day he died.

You're talking about outrages committed by Nazis on their people as if they were exclusively carried out on christians. Well I'll tell you something, aside from being a party member, being a member of a christian religious group was probably the best guarantee of safety under the Nazis. Groups which were far more strongly persecuted included Socialists (including Communists), gays, Romanies, Slavs, and most viciously of all Jews (both religious and arreligious). Not many people went to (criminal) KZ's for their christianity, never mind the gas chambers.

I stand by my point that Nazi Germany was a christian nation (especially seing as nearly all the persecuted groups under Nazi Germany had a long history of being persecuted by the various western churches).

Brian Shanahan · 10-05-2013 12:55PM

J C wrote: »

We are talking about minor children here, who are at a critical stage in the formation of their opinions and outlook on life. We are not talking about young adults in College or adult colleagues in work.

Well then you should be perfectly in favour of a secular education, which does not force them down a certain path vis a vis religion. You see young immature minds are very impressionable, and cannot make an informed and proper decision in this area.

So therefore what RE should do is show every (major) religion in an equal light, showing both good (shared by all systems, both religious and arreligious) and bad, and when the children are old enough then they will be armed with the knowledge to make the right choice for them.

What we have in this country is not alone forcing catholicism on people, but doing it in such a way that is has a massive negative impact on proper areas of education, like the three r's, science, languages, history, geogrphy & the traducing of creationism.

Morbert · 10-05-2013 03:51PM

lmaopml wrote: »

No Kennyyr, I think you are assigning a meaning to secular based on an 'assumption' of what it 'should' be according to the Atheist worldview, and not a notion of freedom.

Oh, but that's the 'assumption' being made - you think that the 'State' raises the family, and not the parents - In Ireland, the teachers act on 'behalf' of parents or in loco parentis - not on behalf of the State, or on behalf of the community, or or behalf of a section of the community who think things should just be their way despite others.

Well, that's just for the 'Atheist/Christian' debate thread isn't it? You might as well throw in a Spaghetti Monster or two and I could throw back that you have a 'religion' all of your very own that is trying to control the people in our society? Etc. and so on....

One of the few things you learn is that nothing is quite as 'simple' as that in life, and obviously the most apparent is that your very own notion of simplicity is another mans idea that is based on multiple assumptions about others. That's not really simple - and I hope neither are you.

You speak of the 21st Century and the part you play in it like as if nobody else lives in it with a different opinion to you? No? That is rather bizarre in the 21st century, and the notion of 'freedom' that people should be able to enjoy - which includes bringing up their families not under 'Community' rule or either under 'State' rule, but under a free society that values the family. If you don't know how valuable this freedom is, than I suggest you study history.

I have empathy with people who feel there is no choice for them and would as a 'Christian' be actively supportive - I don't however understand or admire those who not only want things their way, but only see to the end of their own nose, and have no doubts whatsoever about controlling others. You can't re-write history on this Island, but we can learn from others, and the cries of offense are one thing at not having choice, but the cries of 'you should just bring up your family like me, the Atheist' is quite another.

It is one thing to argue that religion should be taught in school. It is quite another to argue that this is secular.

Yes, teachers act on behalf of parents (within reason), just as governments act on behalf of people, but secularism is more than that. Secularism is the separation of government from religious institutions. In Ireland, unless things have changed recently, it is difficult to send a child to a state funded school that isn't Catholic. This is not secularism.

Though I will say that, in secondary schools at least, the status of "Catholic" is skin-deep. We regularly learned about the importance of contraception, had open debates about abortion without bias from the teacher, and had religion classes that placed no emphasis or validity on Christianity over other religions. This was all in a C.B.S. school.

PopePalpatine · 10-05-2013 07:06PM

robp wrote: »

The fact is the Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers. It was not a culmination of Christianity. Of course this topic should n't even be here at all.

Here's what Hitler said about secular schools: "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith." Source

Morbert wrote: »

Though I will say that, in secondary schools at least, the status of "Catholic" is skin-deep. We regularly learned about the importance of contraception, had open debates about abortion without bias from the teacher, and had religion classes that placed no emphasis or validity on Christianity over other religions. This was all in a C.B.S. school.

I graduated from a community school last year, that was formerly a Christian Brothers' School. There was an annual mass and a graduation mass for 6th Years. And yet, we did learn about contraception and had one religion teacher who was willing to discuss abortion, gay marriage and other religions with an open mind.

lmaopml · 10-05-2013 08:58PM

Morbert wrote: »

It is one thing to argue that religion should be taught in school. It is quite another to argue that this is secular.

I agree. That's not what I said however -

I have no problem with a multi denominational school receiving State funding - in fact, I'd canvass and have done for it. I do have a problem with Atheists saying that a Christian school should receive none, just because.....well they're Christian! Big difference.

Yes, teachers act on behalf of parents (within reason), just as governments act on behalf of people, but secularism is more than that.

Well, apparently for some people - they seem to think that it means a whole lot more than it does.....

Secularism is the separation of government from religious institutions.

Indeed, but secularism does not mean that the Government get to say how people who elect them 'should' practice their religion or not.

In Ireland, unless things have changed recently, it is difficult to send a child to a state funded school that isn't Catholic. This is not secularism.

You know what - that's exactly what I was speaking to Lazy Gal about -

It's not our fault that we have a heritage where we weren't allowed be educated at all, and the people built their own schools and Churches etc. etc. when finally we could - but we are trying to handle being fair to others.

We are trying to at least strike some kind of balance between Christian ethos schools and multi-denom ones. Those crying out for parents to just 'see' that they are right, their worldview is 'super' are really missing the point of freedom.

It's perfectly ok, and I am inclined to have sympathy for people who feel they have no choice, of course - other than a local Catholic school - but the biggest 'voice' in Ireland seems to be coming from the Atheist camp who are not satisfied by anything, and not only want everything to be 'just so' like in the US ta dahh - They also want to tell us we can't send our children to a faith ethos school and expect Government funding - obviously this is a massive assumption on their part. I think it's about time the Atheists found their feet and demanded multi denom schools ( there is no such thing as a non-denom school in Ireland ) and you know did what we did barely a few generations ago, get up off the bum cheeks and stop whining about the world and start doing. Catholics are not their enemies, circumstance and history etc. etc. may be - the times are, and they way the world works, the funding system etc. and so on.....but that's life!

Though I will say that, in secondary schools at least, the status of "Catholic" is skin-deep. We regularly learned about the importance of contraception, had open debates about abortion without bias from the teacher, and had religion classes that placed no emphasis or validity on Christianity over other religions. This was all in a C.B.S. school.

Of course this is your 'testimony' - we have testimonies on the Christian forum that bemoan the idea that Catholicism was pushed on them really badly, and others of the same era who say it wasn't etc. etc. etc. At the end of the day, you will get teachers who are interested in 'dialogue' and in informing students in secondary school about what is available when they leave the guidance of care - I wouldn't expect them to do any less in a Catholic School, they don't teach people to be thick - quite obviously Morbert. You did ok!

J C · 10-05-2013 11:20PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Would you be happy both funding and sending your child to an Islamic school that taught the Quran as truth and Christianity as a lie, because that fitted the "local demand" of the area you found yourself in?

The model I'm talking about is a school that respects the religious outlook of all children attending it ... and Roman Catholic and the various other Christian run schools already do this.
Contrast this with the French Secularists who can't even tolerate the sight of a Muslim headscarf in school ... and the American system that bans all mention of God ... but presents all of the basic beliefs of Atheism as fact ... with no dissenting view allowed

J C · 10-05-2013 11:39PM

Gumbi wrote: »

Over 90% of primary schools are Catholic. How can you justify this even if we concede the "in loco parentis". According to statistics, we still have a very Catholic country. Less than 90% though. And we all know how many of those are a la carte/lapsed Catholics. And the tendency of younger children's parents (whom are of a younger generation) to be less Catholic than older generations.

To have over 90% of the primary schools in Ireland indoctrinating the children of Ireland is preposterous at best.

Here are the 2011 Census figures:-

Religion Percent

Christianity 90.47%
Roman Catholic 84.16%
Church of Ireland 2.81%
Orthodox 0.99%
Presbyterian 0.54%
Apostolic/Pentecostal 0.31%
Methodist 0.15%
Jehovah's Witness 0.13%
Lutheran 0.12%
Protestant 0.12%
Evangelical 0.09%
Baptist 0.08%
Latter Day Saints (Mormon) 0.03%
Lapsed Roman Catholic 0.03%
Quaker (Society of Friends) 0.02%
Plymouth Brethren 0.01%
Other Christian religions 0.9%
Non-Christian religions 1.9%
Islam 1.07%
Hindu 0.23%
Buddhist 0.19%
Jewish 0.04%
Pantheist 0.04%
Bahá'í 0.01%
Other religions 0.31%
Non-religious and unanswered 7.63%
No Religion 5.88%
Atheist 0.09%
Agnostic 0.08%
Not answered 1.59%
Total 100%

To paraphrase Mark Twain ... Rumours of the demise of Irish Christianity are greatly exaggerated!!

As can be seen 90% identified themselves as Christian and less than one tenth of one percent as Atheists ... yet the Secularists want to take over every public school in the country, like they have done in France, if they can get away with it. Its not just the' tail trying to wag the dog' here ... it the 'hair on the tail trying to wag both the tail and the dog'!!!
One of the reasons I chose to live in Ireland and bring up my family here was because of it's Christian history and predominantly Christian character and ethos. This doesn't mean that I'm in any way intolerant of other Faiths or none ... but I do want my children taught within a Christian ethos, with due respect for other faiths and none.
As far as I can see, wherever the Secularists gain control they ruthlessly eradicate any mention or expresssion of faith ... even very mild expressions of faith ... like the Muslim Headscarf.
... and I'm under no illusion that they will be any more tolerant of expressions of Christian belief and practice in schools that they control ... as the comments by Secularists on this thread amply demonstrates.

J C · 11-05-2013 12:18AM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Well then you should be perfectly in favour of a secular education, which does not force them down a certain path vis a vis religion. You see young immature minds are very impressionable, and cannot make an informed and proper decision in this area.

That's precisely why the ethos of a school is so important.
You want to fill impressionable young minds full of the tenets of Atheism ...
... but they are our Christian children ... and not some 'experiment' for Secularists to fill their minds with their worldview!!!
Muslim girls can't even wear a headscarf in Secular schools ... that's how irreligious and intolerant that some Secularist Schools are.
... and I hear no dissenting Secular voices on this thread ... only many assenting voices.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

So therefore what RE should do is show every (major) religion in an equal light, showing both good (shared by all systems, both religious and arreligious) and bad, and when the children are old enough then they will be armed with the knowledge to make the right choice for them.

What we have in this country is not alone forcing catholicism on people, but doing it in such a way that is has a massive negative impact on proper areas of education, like the three r's, science, languages, history, geogrphy & the traducing of creationism.

... I don't see any 'forcing' of Catholocism on anybody in their schools ... but I do see that my God-given right to transmit my Christian Faith to my children is seriously threatened by agressive Secularism ... that shows no respect or tolerance for either me or my Christian Faith ... nor any other Faith, for that matter.

... and your self-admitted objective of Secular Education as the 'traducing of Creationism' ... is just an obvious practice run for the complete elimination of Christianity from the School curriculum.
I recently attended a Roman Catholic Confirmation Ceremony as a guest of a family with a child for Confirmation ... and one of the first things the Bishop did was to ask the children to affirm their belief in "God the Father Creator of all things visible and invisible".
... so your so-called 'traducing of Creationism' ... is a direct badmouthing of what this Roman Catholic Bishop was requiring the children to affirm in order to be Confirmed ... the Creation by God of all things!!!

I'm not stupid enough to let my disagreement with Roman Catholicism on relatively minor matters of doctrine be a reason to support the takeover of their schools by an agressive Secular ethos that, according to you, wants to 'traduce' me, my Christian Faith and my precious children.

BTW, you do realise that your claim that so-called 'proper education' should engage in the traducing of Creationism means that, to quote the dictionary definition of traducing, it should engage in exposing Creationism "to shame or blame by means of falsehood and misrepresentation" ... an interesting claim by you, to say the least.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traduce

shruikan2553 · 11-05-2013 02:25AM

J C wrote: »

Here are the 2011 Census figures:-

Religion Percent

Christianity 90.47%
Roman Catholic 84.16%
Church of Ireland 2.81%
Orthodox 0.99%
Presbyterian 0.54%
Apostolic/Pentecostal 0.31%
Methodist 0.15%
Jehovah's Witness 0.13%
Lutheran 0.12%
Protestant 0.12%
Evangelical 0.09%
Baptist 0.08%
Latter Day Saints (Mormon) 0.03%
Lapsed Roman Catholic 0.03%
Quaker (Society of Friends) 0.02%
Plymouth Brethren 0.01%
Other Christian religions 0.9%
Non-Christian religions 1.9%
Islam 1.07%
Hindu 0.23%
Buddhist 0.19%
Jewish 0.04%
Pantheist 0.04%
Bahá'í 0.01%
Other religions 0.31%
Non-religious and unanswered 7.63%
No Religion 5.88%
Atheist 0.09%
Agnostic 0.08%
Not answered 1.59%
Total 100%

To paraphrase Mark Twain ... Rumours of the demise of Irish Christianity are greatly exaggerated!!

As can be seen 90% identified themselves as Christian and less than one tenth of one percent as Atheists ... yet the Secularists want to take over every public school in the country, like they have done in France, if they can get away with it. Its not just the' tail trying to wag the dog' here ... it the 'hair on the tail trying to wag both the tail and the dog'!!!
One of the reasons I chose to live in Ireland and bring up my family here was because of it's Christian history and predominantly Christian character and ethos. This doesn't mean that I'm in any way intolerant of other Faiths or none ... but I do want my children taught within a Christian ethos, with due respect for other faiths and none.
As far as I can see, wherever the Secularists gain control they ruthlessly eradicate any mention or expresssion of faith ... even very mild expressions of faith ... like the Muslim Headscarf.
... and I'm under no illusion that they will be any more tolerant of expressions of Christian belief and practice in schools that they control ... as the comments by Secularists on this thread amply demonstrates.

I dont understand where this secularism = atheist thing comes from.

Using census figures for religion is a joke. My mother, aunt, uncle and girlfriend would say they are catholic on a census but would also say they dont follow the church at all and are instead more spiritualistic( aka "cultural catholic" which is what makes the census useless in this regard), this is just in my family but the only people who are actually catholic by following catholic beliefs are my grandparents, I doubt my family is the only one in the country like this.

There is certainly a demise in Irish Christianity and I would say that the reductions shown below suggest that it isn't going to get any better.

Look hear at church attendance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

And here for 53% of Ireland answered no to "Does religion occupy an important place in your life?":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

From what I've heard on boards most parents didnt even know there was a vote and yet the majority of areas decided that they want the option of multi-denominational school:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0402/379344-23-new-multi-denominational-schools-recommended/

Ireland claims it is a multi cultural society, might be time we start acting like it in the area of education instead of giving priority to a group where most dont even care.

ET schools are growing in popularity and yet look at how they run things
"In Educate Together schools, all members of the school community are encouraged to share their religious and non-religious beliefs with the whole school community. In this way children develop the necessary knowledge, skills and attitudes to interact critically across different viewpoints within an
atmosphere of equal respect. School facilities are often made available to families wishing to organise faith formation classes, such as those which prepare children for the Catholic sacraments. These classes operate on an ‘opt-in’ basis outside the compulsory school day"

from http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Conferences/Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector/Patronage-Forum-Submissions-June-2011/Educate-Together.pdf

Exactly how I said schools should be run, but this isnt what the 90% of the population who are Catholics want right?

robp · 11-05-2013 10:16AM

Gumbi wrote: »

Over 90% of primary schools are Catholic. How can you justify this even if we concede the "in loco parentis". According to statistics, we still have a very Catholic country. Less than 90% though. And we all know how many of those are a la carte/lapsed Catholics. And the tendency of younger children's parents (whom are of a younger generation) to be less Catholic than older generations.

To have over 90% of the primary schools in Ireland indoctrinating the children of Ireland is preposterous at best.

Gumbi, you know just as well I do that schools are being changed to suit local demand as we write this. It can't happen overnight but it is happening.

Zombrex wrote: »

Would you be happy both funding and sending your child to an Islamic school that taught the Quran as truth and Christianity as a lie, because that fitted the "local demand" of the area you found yourself in?

They would opt out of that class and there would be absolutely no problem. I have zero problem funding an Islamic school.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Outside of Alfred Rosenberg (who was swiftly marginalised as he was too nutty even for the NSDAP), the Nazi hierarchy were, to a man, committed christians. And Hitler remained a good catholic up until the day he died.

...

I stand by my point that Nazi Germany was a christian nation (especially seing as nearly all the persecuted groups under Nazi Germany had a long history of being persecuted by the various western churches).

I don't have enough time to go through this complicated topic but that section in bold is to outrageously false to ignore. Hitler stopped receiving the sacraments early in his life, which would mean he is not a practising or a 'good Catholic'. In the early 1930s any Catholic in the Nazis party was declared to be excommunicated. Hitler was as much a Catholic as is Michael Nugent. Learn some history. He did try to manipulate national churches but anything outside his control was destined for persecution and that exemplified Roman Catholicism.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

ET schools are growing in popularity and yet look at how they run things "In Educate Together schools, all members of the school community are encouraged to share their religious and non-religious beliefs with the whole school community. In this way children develop the necessary knowledge, skills and attitudes to interact critically across different viewpoints within an
atmosphere of equal respect. School facilities are often made available to families wishing to organise faith formation classes, such as those which prepare children for the Catholic sacraments. These classes operate on an ‘opt-in’ basis outside the compulsory school day"

from http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Conferences/Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector/Patronage-Forum-Submissions-June-2011/Educate-Together.pdf

Exactly how I said schools should be run, but this isnt what the 90% of the population who are Catholics want right?

I am amazed you could describe the census results as a joke. They are not super accurate for school preference but they are our first and foremost demographic window. ETs are fine. Some people want them but other don't. However there is no evidence that the majority want them, as the patronage forum did not find that conslusion.

Sin City · 11-05-2013 10:22AM

As Dara O Brien says, Im an atheist..............But still Catholic

Communion and Confirmation grants scrapped...

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