Abortion debate thread

Obliq · 06-05-2013 01:04PM

nowanathiest wrote: »

Regrets or non regrets are an aside.......people have regrets or non regrets about everygthing in life. The main debate here is about valid legal medical services being extended to women who need them. The regrets side show being featured here is merely a red herring to deflect from the real issue.

The "regrets side show" is an ongoing attempt to shame women into silence - the one's like you who KNOW you did the right thing by yourself. Well done, and thank you for sharing your story. And same to Eviltwin.

robp · 06-05-2013 01:05PM

eviltwin wrote: »

In my experience very committed pro-lifers are upset when you don't experience regret, its like they actually want you to suffer. I've been accused on one of these threads of lying about my abortion because there is no way I could be telling the truth unless I had a bad experience. That's what you are up against.

In my experience this does not really happen in person as pro life people are disproportionately compassionate as that is the only reason they are pro life in the first place. Its always very unpleasant to be called a liar. On the other hand on the internet people are less polite. People do troll and make up false stories on all sorts of topics and sometimes people can't identify truth from fiction and get rude. On the other hand I have been called 'vermin' and 'scum' for being pro life. Which is worse.

Obliq · 06-05-2013 01:06PM

robp wrote: »

In my experience this does not really happen in person as pro life people are disproportionately compassion as that is the only reason they are pro life in the first place. Its very unpleasant to be called a liar.On the other hand on the internet people are less polite. People do troll and make up false stories on all sorts of topics and sometimes people can't identify truth from fiction.

Pro life people are disproportionately compassionate alright. You said it robp.

eviltwin · 06-05-2013 01:11PM

robp wrote: »

In my experience this does not really happen in person as pro life people are disproportionately compassion as that is the only reason they are pro life in the first place. Its very unpleasant to be called a liar.On the other hand on the internet people are less polite. People do troll and make up false stories on all sorts of topics and sometimes people can't identify truth from fiction.

These people aren't just randomers, these are well known members of YD and other groups. Yeah you do get a lot of people who troll, quite often I would say some of them are pro choice people trying to discredit the organisations in question but they seem quick enough to ban them.

nowanathiest · 06-05-2013 01:24PM

Obliq wrote: »

That's not what I'm looking at in those videos JC. There's no hope and forgiveness being expressed there, only the kind of shaming that is expressed by the revolting image of women with signs hung around their necks saying "I regret my abortion". Public humiliation of this sort is commonly used in a puritanical fashion to teach people a lesson. In this case, the lesson is apparently "Your desperate choice to have an abortion has made you less good a person than we onlookers"

It looks for all the world like shaming a dog that kills a chicken by tying the dead bird to the dog's collar.Totally unhelpful and ineffectual. Shame on you for buying into that kind of culture.

Bang on the nail. The tactics displayed on this thread smack strongly of American far right pro-life or Born Again Activities. Is it possible that we have an American organisation attempting to influence the outcome of the Irish Legislation? if so, then the RC really are calling in the cavalry. Ho sinister is that?

robp · 06-05-2013 01:26PM

eviltwin wrote: »

These people aren't just randomers, these are well known members of YD and other groups. Yeah you do get a lot of people who troll, quite often I would say some of them are pro choice people trying to discredit the organisations in question but they seem quick enough to ban them.

I will take you up on that point.

nowanathiest wrote: »

Bang on the nail. The tactics displayed on this thread smack strongly of American far right pro-life or Born Again Activities. Is it possible that we have an American organisation attempting to influence the outcome of the Irish Legislation? if so, then the RC really are calling in the cavalry. Ho sinister is that?

nowanathiest wrote: »

Regrets or non regrets are an aside.......people have regrets or non regrets about everygthing in life. The main debate here is about valid legal medical services being extended to women who need them. The regrets side show being featured here is merely a red herring to deflect from the real issue.

This is the kind of misinformation that alienates pro life people. Do you really consider the UKs abortion stats reflective of 'medical service' for people who need it? You know this isn't true. Arguable there is sometimes a middle ground in the debate but barely in the current Irish debate. Pro life or pro choice no one really believes that Kenny represents a middle ground that he tries to claim.

eviltwin · 06-05-2013 01:33PM

nowanathiest wrote: »

Bang on the nail. The tactics displayed on this thread smack strongly of American far right pro-life or Born Again Activities. Is it possible that we have an American organisation attempting to influence the outcome of the Irish Legislation? if so, then the RC really are calling in the cavalry. Ho sinister is that?

And lest we forget, these women are the ones who have admitted they made the wrong choice for them. I wonder what those same "compassionate" people would think about the likes of us who aren't regrettful or feel we did a bad thing

I bet their compassion only extends as far as a woman is wiilling to say she made a mistake.

J C · 06-05-2013 01:39PM

Obliq wrote: »

That's not what I'm looking at in those videos JC. There's no hope and forgiveness being expressed there, only the kind of shaming that is expressed by the revolting image of women with signs hung around their necks saying "I regret my abortion". Public humiliation of this sort is commonly used in a puritanical fashion to teach people a lesson. In this case, the lesson is apparently "Your desperate choice to have an abortion has made you less good a person than we onlookers"

It looks for all the world like shaming a dog that kills a chicken by tying the dead bird to the dog's collar.Totally unhelpful and ineffectual. Shame on you for buying into that kind of culture.

It isn't public humiliation ... these women feel so strongly about their regret ... not shame for what they have done that they want to proclaim their regret publicly.
Nothing is being done to these amazing women ... they are proclaiming their regrets in the hope that other people will not make the same mistake that they did.
I suppose, by wearing black clothing, they are also publicly mouring the loss of their children - and its important that they are given the space to do so. If a mother lost a child any other way, we would all be hugging and consoling her ... these women are no different, and they need our loving hugs too.

Its quite ironic that, as a pro-choice person, you think that a woman publicly proclaiming her regret at having an abortion and mourning the death of her child is somehow 'shameful' in some kind of 'puritanical' way ... while I as a Christian, have nothing but respect and love for these hurting but strong and articulate women.

nowanathiest · 06-05-2013 01:41PM

eviltwin wrote: »

And lest we forget, these women are the ones who have admitted they made the wrong choice for them. I wonder what those same "compassionate" people would think about the likes of us who aren't regrettful or feel we did a bad thing I bet their compassion only extends as far as a woman is wiilling to say she made a mistake.

But only if she admitted to being a sinner first.........priorities!!!.....in the states these nice people would probably shoot first, ask questions later, lol.........what a pity stoning is not fashionable any more........highly visible, more painful and the whole community could join in......make a family day out of it.

Is is sack cloth we should wear........I'm allergic, might have to find an alternative, ha ha ha

J C · 06-05-2013 01:47PM

eviltwin wrote: »

And lest we forget, these women are the ones who have admitted they made the wrong choice for them. I wonder what those same "compassionate" people would think about the likes of us who aren't regrettful or feel we did a bad thing I bet their compassion only extends as far as a woman is wiilling to say she made a mistake.

Jesus Christ loves you just as you are ... and I respect your belief that you made the right choice for you ... I don't agree with it ... but I respect and love you (in the Christian sense of the word) nontheless.

I cannot extend compassion to you because you believe you need no compassion or forgiveness for something you believe to have been a right choice for you.

J C · 06-05-2013 01:52PM

Obliq wrote: »

Just quoting you here JC, in case you try telling me that you're not about shaming women who had abortions.....

The "respect and love" you profess means nothing when you come out with the bolded part in the same sentence.

Yes, I believe that killing an unborn child is a terrible mistake ... and it should only be necessary in extremis situations. The fact that I believe somebody has made a mistake makes me all the more concerned for their welfare ... and hoping and wishing that they will have better days to look forward to in the future.

eviltwin · 06-05-2013 01:56PM

J C wrote: »

Yes, I believe that killing your unborn child is a terrible mistake ... and it should only be necessary in extremis situations. The fact that I believe somebody has made a mistake makes me all the more concerned for their welfare ... and hoping and wishing that they will have better days to look forward to in the future.

A mistake implies it was the wrong thing to do or that there was a better choice.

J C · 06-05-2013 01:58PM

nowanathiest wrote: »

But only if she admitted to being a sinner first.........priorities!!!.....in the states these nice people would probably shoot first, ask questions later, lol.........what a pity stoning is not fashionable any more........highly visible, more painful and the whole community could join in......make a family day out of it.

Is is sack cloth we should wear........I'm allergic, might have to find an alternative, ha ha ha

No sack cloth ... no ashes required ... I love and respect you as the articulate and amazing woman you obviously are. We disagree on whether abortion is right ... and probably many other things ... but such is life.

JimiTime · 06-05-2013 01:59PM

eviltwin wrote: »

And lest we forget, these women are the ones who have admitted they made the wrong choice for them. I wonder what those same "compassionate" people would think about the likes of us who aren't regrettful or feel we did a bad thing I bet their compassion only extends as far as a woman is wiilling to say she made a mistake.

How would such compassion manifest itself? It manifests itself to women who regret in the form of support, and giving them a platform to voice their regret. The compassion for those who want abortion legal, and do not regret having abortion themselves would not be in supporting their views or decisions on abortion. So I'm wondering how you'd see it manifest itself?

JimiTime · 06-05-2013 02:02PM

nowanathiest wrote: »

But only if she admitted to being a sinner first.........priorities!!!.....in the states these nice people would probably shoot first, ask questions later, lol.........what a pity stoning is not fashionable any more........highly visible, more painful and the whole community could join in......make a family day out of it.

Is is sack cloth we should wear........I'm allergic, might have to find an alternative, ha ha ha

Ahh yes, seek refuge in the silly caricatures. You know the latest murder in this was from a pro abortionist? You'll notice though, that some have the intelligence, honesty and good taste not to make that into a picture of the pro-abortion side.

eviltwin · 06-05-2013 02:05PM

JimiTime wrote: »

How would such compassion manifest itself? It manifests itself to women who regret in the form of support, and giving them a platform to voice their regret. The compassion for those who want abortion legal, and do not regret having abortion themselves would not be in supporting their views or decisions on abortion. So I'm wondering how you'd see it manifest itself?

I don't want compassion but in my experience some people see lack of regret as a red rag and it brings out the nasty comments. Its hard to take someone's compassion seriously when they can turn around to another woman who has had an abortion and insult her.

J C · 06-05-2013 02:12PM

eviltwin wrote: »

A mistake implies it was the wrong thing to do or that there was a better choice.

Obviously, some abortions are necessary in extremis cases ... and I don't view these as mistakes.
However, it's my view that Human Life should be saved, where this is possible ... but I respect your right to hold the opposite view.

J C · 06-05-2013 02:20PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't want compassion but in my experience some people see lack of regret as a red rag and it brings out the nasty comments. Its hard to take someone's compassion seriously when they can turn around to another woman who has had an abortion and insult her.

I agree with you there ... but when it comes to issues like abortion, emotions can run high ... but loving kindness is always a good idea ... although it is not always practiced.

JimiTime · 06-05-2013 02:23PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't want compassion but in my experience some people see lack of regret as a red rag and it brings out the nasty comments. Its hard to take someone's compassion seriously when they can turn around to another woman who has had an abortion and insult her.

A person who insults you for insults sake, I agree is not being compassionate. I'm not sure if its accurate to say that anti-abortionists are like this in general though. There are mentalists on both side of this debate, but in my experience, they are relatively few, and not representative.

nowanathiest · 06-05-2013 02:26PM

J C wrote: »

Obviously, some abortions are necessary for in extremis cases ... and I don't view these as mistakes.
However, it's my view that Human Life should be saved, where this is possible ... but I respect your right to hold the opposite view.

JC, I'm afraid you are still not seeing the light. Your "compassionate" and affected show of concern is merely the flip side of the witch hunt coin.

Women don't need your permission or blessing, forgiveness or otherwise to make decisions in their lives. Your obvious crusade to find female sinners and redeem them, comes across to me as being not in fact helpful but indeed a little creepy.

Do you own a basement?

J C · 06-05-2013 02:32PM

nowanathiest wrote: »

JC, I'm afraid you are still not seeing the light. Your "compassionate" and affected show of concern is merely the flip side of the witch hunt coin.

Women don't need your permission or blessing, forgiveness or otherwise to make decisions in their lives. Your obvious crusade to find female sinners and redeem them, comes across to me as being not in fact helpful but indeed a little creepy.

Do you own a basement?

You deep personal insult to me aside ... my compassion and forgiveness extends to all sinners (men and women) who ask for it ... that is the Great Commission of Jesus Christ to all Christians.
Nobody needs my permission or blessing or forgiveness to make decisions in their lives ... but I can extend my blessing to whomever I choose ... and my compassion and forgiveness to those who ask for it ... and my advice to those who will listen to it.
God Almighty can do no more, in the Church era ... so neither can I.

Obliq · 06-05-2013 02:41PM

J C wrote: »

Its quite ironic that, as a pro-choice person, you think that a woman publicly proclaiming her regret at having an abortion and mourning the death of her child is somehow 'shameful' in some kind of 'puritanical' way ... while I as a Christian, have nothing but respect and love for these hurting but strong and articulate women.

No, I have no problem with women publicly proclaiming their regret, so long as they are not encouraging other women to feel regret for their abortions. This is what is on show here, by the use of the very strong and triggering images of women with signs HUNG AROUND their necks.

J C wrote: »

Yes, I believe that killing an unborn child is a terrible mistake ... and it should only be necessary in extremis situations. The fact that I believe somebody has made a mistake makes me all the more concerned for their welfare ... and hoping and wishing that they will have better days to look forward to in the future.

Something that you continuously and obtusely fail to acknowledge is that every woman who has an abortion is doing just that. My concern for the loss of a tiny non-sentient life versus the well-being of a grown woman's life tends to come down on the side of the grown woman. Your's is missing that concern apparently. Different morals, but only your's are reflected in our constitution due to the fundamentalism of a small few Catholics in positions of power.

nowanathiest · 06-05-2013 02:42PM

J C wrote: »

You deep personal insult to me aside ... my compassion and forgiveness extends to all sinners (men and women) who ask for it ... that is the Great Commission of Jesus Christ to all Christians.
Nobody needs my permission or blessing or forgiveness to make decisions in their lives ... but I can extend my blessing to whomever I choose ... and my compassion and forgiveness to those who ask for it ... and my advice to those who will listen to it.
God Almighty can do no more, in the Church era ... so neither can I.

Well at least you are not claiming to be God, yet anyway. That is something I suppose. Have a nice day!

J C · 06-05-2013 02:52PM

Obliq wrote: »

No, I have no problem with women publicly proclaiming their regret, so long as they are not encouraging other women to feel regret for their abortions. This is what is on show here, by the use of the very strong and triggering images of women with signs HUNG AROUND their necks.

How does it do this, if some women think they did the right thing, no amount of regret from other women will make any difference. The images are quite dramatic ... but then open mourning is something that modern society tends to frown on anyway in its apparent attempt at ignoring the reality of all death.

Obliq wrote: »

Something that you continuously and obtusely fail to acknowledge is that every woman who has an abortion is doing just that. My concern for the loss of a tiny non-sentient life versus the well-being of a grown woman's life tends to come down on the side of the grown woman. Your's is missing that concern apparently.

I'm concerned for the lives and welfare of both the woman and her unborn child.
Can anybody say that the welfare (as distinct from the lives) of the women who regret having abortions has been improved by the abortion. Their welfare has been seriously compromised IMO.

Obliq · 06-05-2013 03:05PM

J C wrote: »

How does it do this, if some women think they did the right thing, no amount of regret from other women will make any difference. The images are quite dramatic ... but then open mourning is something that modern society tends to frown on anyway in its apparent attempt at ignoring the reality of all death.

The culture of silence around abortion is based on the principal of shaming them. That is, by publicly ridiculing and decrying any woman who dares talk about their abortion experience in the media for example. Only last week did a woman speak publicly about her rape, and how she would have had an abortion if she had become pregnant through her ordeal. The comments section after her article had to be disabled due to the victim blaming and shaming comments that her speaking out generated. Where are the 4,000 women from Ireland per year who have abortions heard? Heard nowhere in the national media, apart from the brave few who speak out these days, for example up here. Why? Because of the shaming that goes on.

Those images are not of open mourning (although those women ARE mourning, that's true), this is open shaming.

I've a little video of my own for you to watch JC. It will explain better than I can.

Can anybody say that the welfare (as distinct from the lives) of the women who regret having abortions has been improved by the abortion. Their welfare has been seriously compromised IMO.

Certainly, their lives have not been improved by their abortions. That would depend on the quality of support they had afterwards and whether their ability to cope with having made what they subsequently feel was a mistake has been compromised by others around them.

robp · 06-05-2013 05:22PM

eviltwin wrote: »

These people aren't just randomers, these are well known members of YD and other groups. Yeah you do get a lot of people who troll, quite often I would say some of them are pro choice people trying to discredit the organisations in question but they seem quick enough to ban them.

[EMAIL="I will take you up on that point."]I will take you up on that point.[/EMAIL]

Forgive my impatience but perhaps you could oblige? Who are these well known people you describe?

robp · 06-05-2013 05:32PM

Obliq wrote: »

The culture of silence around abortion is based on the principal of shaming them. That is, by publicly ridiculing and decrying any woman who dares talk about their abortion experience in the media for example. Only last week did a woman speak publicly about her rape, and how she would have had an abortion if she had become pregnant through her ordeal. The comments section after her article had to be disabled due to the victim blaming and shaming comments that her speaking out generated. Where are the 4,000 women from Ireland per year who have abortions heard? Heard nowhere in the national media, apart from the brave few who speak out these days, for example up here. Why? Because of the shaming that goes on.

Nonsense. You can't expect everyone to agree with you in life. It this is your standard then pro life posters here are victims of 'shaming' by abortion advocates like yourself. Abortion regret occurs at the population level. Personal knowledge and observation are meaning less in this respect. There are plenty of studies on this.

Obliq · 06-05-2013 05:45PM

"The culture of silence around abortion is based on the principal of shaming them. That is, by publicly ridiculing and decrying any woman who dares talk about their abortion experience in the media for example. Only last week did a woman speak publicly about her rape, and how she would have had an abortion if she had become pregnant through her ordeal. The comments section after her article had to be disabled due to the victim blaming and shaming comments that her speaking out generated. Where are the 4,000 women from Ireland per year who have abortions heard? Heard nowhere in the national media, apart from the brave few who speak out these days, for example up here. Why? Because of the shaming that goes on. "

robp wrote: »

Nonsense. You can't expect everyone to agree with you in life. It this is your standard then pro life posters here are victims of 'shaming' by abortion advocates like yourself. Abortion regret occurs at the population level. Personal knowledge and observation are meaning less in this respect. There are plenty of studies on this.

a) What part of my comment here is nonsense? I can easily provide a link to the article mentioned.

b) Where did I expect everyone to agree with me in life? Please show me the comment in which I did that.

c) My standard is more polite than certain pro-life people up here blatantly saying to someone that they have been terribly mistaken in a choice they have taken.

d) People's personal stories of their abortion experiences are extremely meaningful and difficult to tell. Please do not belittle them.

robp · 06-05-2013 06:03PM

Obliq wrote: »

"The culture of silence around abortion is based on the principal of shaming them. That is, by publicly ridiculing and decrying any woman who dares talk about their abortion experience in the media for example. Only last week did a woman speak publicly about her rape, and how she would have had an abortion if she had become pregnant through her ordeal. The comments section after her article had to be disabled due to the victim blaming and shaming comments that her speaking out generated. Where are the 4,000 women from Ireland per year who have abortions heard? Heard nowhere in the national media, apart from the brave few who speak out these days, for example up here. Why? Because of the shaming that goes on. "

a) What part of my comment here is nonsense? I can easily provide a link to the article mentioned.

b) Where did I expect everyone to agree with me in life? Please show me the comment in which I did that.

c) My standard is more polite than certain pro-life people up here blatantly saying to someone that they have been terribly mistaken in a choice they have taken.

d) People's personal stories of their abortion experiences are extremely meaningful and difficult to tell. Please do not belittle them.

A lot of people have a moral problem with abortion. Men are probably no different to women on this as studies have shown. There is no more a culture of shaming than any other controversial topic eg gun control, religion, immigration. If you expect pro life people not to question somone's social abortion in a debate then you do expect everyone to agree with you.
I don't mean to belittle personal testimonies but personal observations of them do not reveal a whole lot.

Obliq wrote: »

Different morals, but only your's are reflected in our constitution due to the fundamentalism of a small few Catholics in positions of power.

That is obviously untrue and certainly can't be considered respectful.

Obliq · 06-05-2013 06:25PM

robp wrote: »

A lot of people have a moral problem with abortion. Men are probably no different to women on this as studies have shown. There is no more a culture of shaming than any other controversial topic eg gun control, religion, immigration. If you expect pro life people not to question somone's social abortion in a debate then you do expect everyone to agree with you.
I don't mean to belittle personal testimonies but personal observations of them do not reveal a whole lot.

Your comment in bold defies reality. Can it be true that 4,000 women per year (40,000 in the last ten) are being heard? Where are you hearing them robp? Their silence is for a reason. Watch the video, you might learn something.

Your comment in italics IMO indicates that you'd prefer women with stories of their abortions to stay quiet. To me, those testimonies reveal a lot.

That is obviously untrue and certainly can't be considered respectful.

It is not disrespectful to state the fact that part of the Irish constitution (the 8th amendment) reflects a morality that is no longer relevant to the majority of people in Ireland. It was pushed for in the first place by Catholic lobby group the PLAC and dissenting voices were silenced at the time. You know this robp, we've had this discussion before on the A&A forum.
"Fundamentalism is the demand for a strict adherence to specific theological doctrines" - it is also not disrespectful to state this fact about the people who lobbied for the 8th amendment.

Abortion debate thread

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