Communion and Confirmation grants scrapped...

robp wrote: »

There is no compelling reason why the system should be homogenised. As long there is public demand there isn't any grounds for a one size fits all curriculum. Such calls are purely idealogical and not rooted in education achievement or even spending efficiently.

We'll have to agree to differ on that I'm afraid. Cost has always been trotted out as an excuse for the current mess that is our school system.

We need a school system that is inclusive of all citizen regardless of their beliefs. To my mind 'belief' should be left at the school gate. The current system promotes division and does nothing to help children who are forced through a school day that contains religious elements that have nothing to do with their lives.

SD

homer911 wrote: »

As a Christian, I agree absolutely - the school system should be representative of the type of education parents want for their children

Beliefs are not something that can be left at the school gate - you either have them or you don't, but you cant put them aside just to suit someone else. You can however act in a way which respects the beliefs (or non-beliefs) of others - and that applies to those without beliefs, just as much as it does to those with them - its very much a two way street, unfortunately the people who are most outspoken want a one way street to suit themselves only..

When the State is paying the bill having a system that places one religious belief ahead of others in an educational setting is to my mind incorrect. It is not the place of the state to fund the religious education of a particular section of society.

If parents want a specific religious education for their children frankly they should fund that cost themselves. The current system marginalises and excludes those who are forced to send their children to a particular 'faith' school, mainly because there are no viable alternatives.

To my mind schools should not promote any particular belief system and should welcome all citizens equally on that basis. Following on from that if parents want their children to be educated in a particular religious denomination, that inculcation should occur outside of school hours where parents frankly can better participate in such activities.

SD

robp wrote: »

The cost argument is baloney. As it stands the schools are overwhelmingly Catholic and there are already usually small by international standards. Thus Irish school size is low due to reasons that must be unrelated to attempts to create ETs or VECs. If you want to reduce costs go head and close schools but there is no reason why schools couldn't be rationalised while still maintaining a variety of choices. It is only in the most remote rural areas while only a tiny minority lives is a variety of school choices not feasible. It is unlikely that schools are going to be rationalised any time soon as it is problematic and political dangerous so the Irish system may continue to be usually well suited to a denominal schools approach for the foreseeable future.


One system is treated not above others. Each are given the pre-eminence according to local demand.

Although we know there is shortage of ETs locally there is no evidence of the widespread exclusion and marginalisation which you suggest.

You're missing the point.

As it stands these 'Catholic' schools you mention are funded by the State. If you want a system of 'Catholic' (or any other faith for that matter) schools they should be wholly funded by the parents who choose to send their children to such schools. Bearing in mind that these schools should be subject to the full weight of equality legislation and any exceptions in that legislation should be removed.

Just because the system 'is' does not make it correct.

The denominal approach you seem to recommend does nothing for social inclusiveness and frankly is a waste of resources.

SD

homer911 wrote: »

You cant talk about social inclusiveness and then demand that everyone else changes their views to suit yours. Your argument is only relevant based on facts and figures. Show me, say, a catholic school which has say a 90% non-catholic student roll and I will agree with you. There is no
empirical evidence to support the notion that non-catholic pupils in a catholic school are somehow socially excluded.

For the record, my children attend a protestant school which has a significant catholic student group and its fully inclusive - to the point where nobody asks, cares or complains

I presume that you would be happy to bear the full economic cost of your child attending a non-denominational school..

Well, don't you need a baptisimal certificate to register in a Catholic school? So, it's not like there's much choice in the matter...

Lets be honest its not Religion thats being taught in schools its Catholicism which is only one religion. If we are gonna have religion in schools then it needs to be taught as a subject where children learn the philosophies and historys of all major religions and are properly examined on it and if parents want to encourage they're own beliefs onto their child its up to them to do it in their own time and at their own cost

StudentDad wrote: »

I'm not asking you to change your views. Whatever your beliefs are frankly they're unimportant to me.

I don't think that is entirely the truth!

However, this country is supposed to be a Republic with a definite separation of church and state. That being the case the State should not be funding the religious education of private citizens.

That would include yourself?

As I said earlier to my mind if religion is taught in schools it should be an exam subject that covers all religious belief in a non-biased manner.

Well, you see that kind of says that you would like a 'non-denominational' system and to exlude any kind of public worship at all -

Students should be able to decide if they want to study this accordingly. Otherwise reference to religion should remain outside.

Give a good reason? Perhaps it held you back in some ways and that's your testimony, but the statistics for 'faith' ethos schools says different -

There are private schools all over this country who derive their income from fees. I have no problem with such institutions so long as they do not try to tap the public purse for funds and adhere to equality legislation.

Well, that's where you are wrong - the teachers are paid from the public purse, because they are providing a 'public' service to the 'public'...

So long as the State pays the bill to my mind 'religious studies' that are not an exam subject should remain separate.

It IS a subject, an exam subject no less where they are taught about all faiths in the curriculum, that the world is not necessarily a Christian world - and they are not hidden away from the world - students are not 'idiots' or taught to be such?

- they are brought up in a school with an ethos, a Christian one, not an Atheist one, but they are not taught to be unthinking, their grades speak for themselves, and of course the demand that parents have to get their children into faith ethos schools speaks for itself. Especially in countries where the state public system has been rolled out in the secular way.

Personally, I think that it would be cool to introduce students to the great philosophers actual teaching rather than merely the historical impact ( they know the poets ) but also the great philosophers, and thinkers too, in 5th year and have some cool discussion in religious education, rather than wait years for people to introduce such things on the 'internet' - I think it's the one thing lacking in the system that genuine question and answer sessions are not engaged in.

To be honest, I had a pretty cool religious teacher, but that was only in 5th year - prior to that they were ok and child friendly, but my 5th class teacher was really really cool...It made the difference - he knew what he was talking about!

LM.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I am no expert on the subject and am basing this on personal opinion not research, but I am not sure the above is correct.

Before contraception was widely available and it was not unusual to have 10 or 12 children, how much 'parent time' do you think these children got? Men went out to work and women stayed home. If you were solely responsible for the feeding, washing, and cleanliness of family of 12 or 14 people, I imagine there would be very little time for any personal, quality interactions with 10 to 12 individual children.

I'm the youngest of eight children, and it was very very very cool having the camaraderie of a close family, having brothers and sisters, and still having them - and the love and example of amazing parents. I don't think I could possibly explain or even begin to imagine the amazing parents I had, that even thought that they could possibly have me - no. eight! All I can say is 'Wow', and really really thankyou for giving me 'life'....

I wouldn't be posting here if they didn't. They were amazing, my parents! I love them.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

This is very evident to me, as I have no realistic choice but to send my child to a school that is going to attempt to teach him religion as fact. A one way street that suits Catholics it definately is! If you truly preferred a two way street you would be in favour of secular schools that are appropriate to every child, of any religion or none.

Kiwi, speaking frankly, there was a time in the history of our very young state when Catholics couldn't be educated at all - we weren't allowed because of the 'State'. I don't mean to be 'mean' but this is the truth -

Our state is a 'young' state - we're finding our way - not everybody is out to control a child's education, we're dealing with what we have right now - perhaps it's time to trust others and not demonise people?

I love seeing the adversity in my childs school, he is friends with people of so many different ethnic and religious backgrounds and yet he attends a Catholic school because normal folk realise that it's important to give a welcome hand and love to kids.

The country will find some kind of equilibrium, but I think that demonising those who love their Catholic ethos or Christian ethos schools is really cutting off our nose despite our face - we're 'people' we're not baddies, we're just parents like every other parent. No different. We live in this country with this history, but you can't re-write it - no more than anybody else can..

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Is it nice? Catholics are in a great position to be able to tell the rest of us how nice it is.

No, Catholics fund raised in the community when they could in order to set up schools and parishes and in order to set up some kind of education system for children who otherwise would have been illiterate.

They, hid, they fought, they died, they worked and campaigned in order to 'build' - they didn't just 'apply' for funding to an apparently lovely state of the nice people that run the state all the time -

That's where you are wrong - blood, sweat and tears and effort went into every single brick of every single school built since independence -

Now, you can have a 'so what' attitude if you like, but it's not very complimentary to those who went before you?

.. and didn't expect everything to fall into place just because they decided after they were born that the world should just be the way they think it should be and it owes them because they walk on it.

That's not life - that's a big fiction!

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I find it a bit difficult to get my head around the argument 'because we were oppressed in the past, now we are going to oppress everybody else'.

Who is being oppressed?

I have no choice but to send my child to a religious school. I have chosen COI because I prefer it to Catholicism, but it is still religious. I am atheist and I don't want him taught religious beliefs or practices as reality. Now I don't expect, or even desire, an atheist school. I don't want my child taught officially that there is no god anymore than I want him taught that there is one. I would rather he were taught only what different groups believe and which practices are attributed to which religion. Religious people seem to get confused between atheist and secular schools. Secular schools are suitable for everyone whether atheist, Christian, Muslim or Scientology. No religion is dismissed but neither is any taught as the 'true religion' and presented as fact.

Well, then I will make a suggestion - get up off your bum cheeks, and meet people like you and apply for state funding to open an ET school, you lucky person who can 'apply' for state funding! - and while you are at it, ask Catholics in the area to recommend that it's necessary, and ask for their recommendation, do a survey - because I don't think you will find a single parish that will deny you an ET school, or parents who want to control you -

You may find a Catholic school that accomodates others and truly loves them and the diversity - just like my little boys school - but you won't find parents who even feel the remote need to control you or your choice -

The opening of a school is not up to 'me' - I'm Catholic, my ancestors built and fought hard to open education at all to Irish people - the opening of another 'ethos' school is up to YOU, and your effort, and I am not your enemy - that's a lie, it's not the truth at all - it's the worst lie ever.

It's up to you though, not to 'grumble' and moan, but DO something, nothing happens unless people 'do'.....just like Catholics did right here not so long ago.