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Military Archery in Medieval Ireland
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Folks,
Not to drag the thread off its trajectory too much but
I've read lots of references to "darts" being used in warfare in Ireland. Are these some kind of short javelin? Were they launched using any tool (thong, spear-thrower/woomera)? How would a dart head differ from a spear head or arrow head? Are these the ga of saga fame?
-Yendred the Unperforated
No prob, I like darts too
I like this pic of the dart as used by the Irish of the period.
This example has an arrow-head and a finger-loop for assisted launching.
Other examples had fletchings (feathers to assist flight direction).
The warrior is Neil O'Neill who is dressed as a chieftain would have been the previous century. His servant is carrying a number of other darts. O'Neill was killed at the Battle of the Boyne.0 -
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Well before the era under discussion but very interesting all the same...
http://www.le.ac.uk/has/ps/past/past46.html#BowstaveTHE BARRYSBROOK BOWSTAVE
Ireland’s oldest bow is the subject of ongoing study by the Irish Archaeological Wetland Unit
A yew bowstave was recently recovered from Barrysbrook townland during an archaeological survey of Ballybeg Bog. This bog, which is in industrial peat production, is situated at the base of Croghan Hill in east Co. Offaly, Ireland. Croghan Hill, a very prominent natural feature in this largely flat landscape, has a large number of known prehistoric sites.
Ballybeg Bog forms part of a chain of bogs surrounding this hill and a total of 105 new archaeological sites were discovered during the survey (McDermott et al. 2002, 30-1). These sites range from wooden trackways and smaller sites to large wooden platforms and a possible occupation site, with the latter sites situated on the foreshore of an extinct lake. Dates from these sites range from the Late Neolithic to the Late Bronze Age/Iron Age. The bowstave was recovered ex situ, partially exposed in a water-filled drain. Consequently, in consultation with the National Museum of Ireland, it was decided to date the bowstave. This date has recently been returned as 2399-2042 cal BC.
The Barrysbrook bowstave is 1.36m long, believed to be three-quarters of the original length of the object. Damage consisting of fracturing and splitting can be identified along 62.8cm of its length. There is an intact terminal at one end but it is damaged at the other. The terminal is rounded in form with a single small perforation. The artefact has been trimmed around the length of the stave to the intact terminal where it curves inward slightly, although no toolmarks are evident. Due to the condition of the piece, it was not possible to examine the D-shaped cross-section and consequently the sapwood-heartwood boundary.
While a number of prehistoric bowstaves are known from sites in Britain, such as Rotten Bottom (Sheridan 1993), Meare Heath (Clarke 1963, 53) and Eddington Burtle (Glover 1979, 326), the Barrysbrook bowstave is only the second known prehistoric bowstave identified in Ireland (A. Halpin pers. comm.). The other example from Drumwhinny Bog, Kesh, Co. Fermanagh (Glover 1979, 323-4) has been dated to 1680-1326 cal BC (Hedges et al. 1991, 123). Consequently, the Barrysbrook bowstave is the earliest and most intact Irish example. It is hoped to carry out further research on this bowstave, including a possible reconstruction.
Cara Murray
Irish Archaeological Wetland Unit0 -
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No remains of Carolingian bows have been discovered, but the one bow which has survived from the Merovingian period is D-shaped, made of wood, and some 2 m. long.214 In contrast to the Byzantines and Lombards, the Franks and Alamanni are not believed to have used the composite reflex bow at this time.215 However, some ninth-century pictorial sources seem to portray reflex bows,216 and Ermold was apparently describing a composite bow when he referred to an archer "cornea plectra tenens."217 Although it is impossible to be categorical, given the absence of archeological remains, this evidence does suggest that the Franks were familiar with the reflex bow in the ninth century.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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On this point...
Let's indeed look at how Albrecht drew an Indian rhino.pedroeibar1 wrote: »My comment on Durer’s drawings is valid. Just look up how he drew a rhinoceros. HERE Then you might understand why his bow drawings were represented in the manner shown and were not necessarily what the Irish used in Ireland.
Photo of Indian Rhino
The Indian rhino looks quite a bit different to the African species. Given Al had never seen such a thing before, his representation down to the tubercules on it's hide and leathery armour plates, even the hairy tips of it's ears is pretty damn good and recognisable as a particular species of rhino today, so not such a good example of what might have been his artistic licence.
There are better pics of said Rhino species but they're huge so...Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59005
Hardly.pedroeibar1 wrote: »Thanks Wibbs,
That photo just goes to further prove my point.
Rhino's footNow look at the extremities of Durer’s rhino – the scales on the legs, the large toes with interdigital space,
Pretty "scaly" with clearly defined toes.
For a start I'd argue they're not "rivets" he's drawing, plus it's unlikely he got close enough to feel it's skin and even if he did it would feel like thick scales. He clearly saw this animal, even though it would have been completely alien to him because it's accurate enough of a drawing right down to the folds in it's leathery armour to pin down the precise subspecies of rhino involved and bear in mind this was as I said an animal very alien to his experience. Bows he would have seen throughout his life, so if he was that accurate about such a strange beast, he'd likely be more accurate with a known object.the additional spiral neck horn, the riveted plates, the frilly tutu, etc. Sure, Bertie Durer was nearly right in the overall form but he gets it very wrong in the detail and text, when he says that the rhino ‘has the colour of a speckled tortoise and it is covered with thick scales’.
Of course this doesn't mean he saw Irish bows and bowmen and it's up in the air whether he conjured them up out of what he thought they'd look like, but I would contend that if he had seen them his rendition would be accurate. How accurate is he regarding more local arms? How accurate is he regarding other aspects of the Irishmen at arms. I do note he shows the glib/long fringe on the Irishmen, so he at least heard of that, if not observed it.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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And lastly - as a former member of the British Longbow Society and occasional backyard archer, I'm still trying to find ANY reference at all to the use of composite bows in England, Wales and Ireland in the period we are discussing. Would anybody here with clear evidence for the use of anything but a self-bow by the archers of the British Isles and Ireland please provide it.
Is it possible to make a self bow in that shape? I think there might be some confusion over self-bow/composite versus longbow/reflex (I know I am confused nowWoodcut of scotsmen hunting, from Holinshed's Chronicle, 1577. In his text Holinshed describes such 'wild Scots' inhabiting the Highland region as being called 'the Redshanks, or rough footed Scots, because they go barefooted and clad in mantles over their saffron shirts after the Irish manner'.
)
Just found this now, it's a thread with plenty of pictures and most of these references already collected
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f263/derricks-image-irelande-1581-irish-clothing-63778/0 -
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riffmongous wrote: »
Is it possible to make a self bow in that shape? I think there might be some confusion over self-bow/composite versus longbow/reflex (I know I am confused now)
Kay. Here's the skinny - A self bow is a bow that is made of ONE single piece of wood throughout its entire length. A bow that you may have made as a kid, using a bit of tree and a piece of string, is a self bow. Sure, you can jazz it up by making spiffy horn nocks to take the string, but the bow is still made of one piece of bendy wood.
A composite bow is one that is made - in a historical context - out of more than one material. True, the composite bow MAY incorporate wood in its construction, but derives its energy-storing capacity from the use of natural energy storing materials - sinew and horn - all of which are glued together in careful manufacturing process the makes a bow that is not only powerful for its size and draw weight, but ofen very short and handy for use on horseback. The Romans found this out the hard way from the Parthian and Scythian mounted archers, who were so handy that they could advance shooting arrows, and then, at the last moment, turn away and shoot over the horse's rump - hence the saying - 'the Parthian [parting] shot....'
Later the great Mongol armies of Mr G Khan proved almost unbeatable from their mass use of their teeny little composite bows - often less than three feet in length, but capable of easily outranging any opposing self bow. Please wath a remarkable demonstration of a Hungarian archer shooting the bow from horsback on YouTube...and having watched that, imagine what a hundred thousand of them, all heading in your direction, must have looked like.
So, composite bows flourished where trees did not.
As for the shape - that's easy - a long bow, when fully-drawn, SHOULD describe a perfect arc of a circle. The fancy curlicues we see on many medieaval bows as depicted in art and ecclesiatical murals are either fancy hon overlay string nocks, or the employment of a vibrant imagination on the part of the artist.
A recurve bow, broadly speaking, has tips that project forward when at rest - like a cupid's bow - and then at full draw simply straightens out a little to add power to the projection of the arrow by deflexing. In the case of th Mongol-style recurve bow, the handle or grip is actually inside the arc of the bow limbs, and in a long bow the handle is ON the arc of the limbs.
A look at any of the gazillion images on the internet will show you what I mean, as will a few minutes spend watching a bowyer making one on YouTube.
tac0 -
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