The Cost of Cheap Clothes

Amirani · 25-04-2013 01:57PM

snubbleste wrote: »

Anyone know why 3 lives in Boston are far more newsworthy than 200+ lives in Dhaka

Who the hell said they were? Why do you people have to bring this up in every thread?

sbsquarepants · 25-04-2013 01:57PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Not if you buy European, at least then you know that working conditions and pay are at a minimum standard. Most people probably aren't aware there are European standards for just about every product and practice in Europe. These standards ensure that the product will do what it's supposed to do, safely.

European cocoa beans, or coffee or bananas??
I'm sure it's possible to buy only european manufactured clothes for example with enough dilligence, but then where did the cloth, or the leather come from and so on.
It may be just about possible to avoid aiding exploitation, but it would be far from easy -in fact it's probably beyond the scope and the means of the average person.

ScumLord · 25-04-2013 02:06PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

European cocoa beans, or coffee or bananas??
I'm sure it's possible to buy only european manufactured clothes for example with enough dilligence, but then where did the cloth, or the leather come from and so on.
It may be just about possible to avoid aiding exploitation, but it would be far from easy -in fact it's probably beyond the scope and the means of the average person.

We have a problem here though that we think cheap means good value when it rarely does. If you bought the expensive European product it will often outlast 3 or 4 of the imported cheap version of the product. so you're spending more in the long run.

Europe is good at making food and a lot of the basics can be bought from within the EU, when it comes to manufacturing only the Japanese beat us. I don't think it would be too hard to buy the majority of your stuff in Europe.

The Queen of England · 25-04-2013 02:08PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

The bollox part is the fúck primark bit.
What are you going to do about it? Are you going to ensure you only buy clothes and shoes from ethicaly sound manufacturers, and pay the prices they require? Are you going to stop drinking coffee or eating chocolate and most fruit. Are you going to stop using your ipod etc - I would suggest you aren't going to do any of those things, you're going to say fúck company x on an internet forum and then carry on as normal. That's what's bollox!

It is the world we live in. I'm just more realistic about it than you are.

It's not that difficult to buy products that are produced by companies that have strict ethical codes for their workers or the workers of their suppliers.

Of course, it's not always possible, but it is possible not to buy your clothes from the likes of Penneys or not to buy an iPod if you so choose.

You seem to think that I'm picking on Penneys randomly - which is not the case considering that around 100 people died yesterday in a building that contained one of their sweatshops.

jam_mac_jam · 25-04-2013 02:08PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

European cocoa beans, or coffee or bananas??
I'm sure it's possible to buy only european manufactured clothes for example with enough dilligence, but then where did the cloth, or the leather come from and so on.
It may be just about possible to avoid aiding exploitation, but it would be far from easy -in fact it's probably beyond the scope and the means of the average person.

Just because you move to avoid aiding expoitation in some areas doesn't mean you have to do it in everything you buy all the time. You can make some effort. Its better then sitting back and saying, ah well that's the way of life I am not bothered doing anything if I can't do everything.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 25-04-2013 02:08PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Europe could simply require that foreign factories that export into Europe are held to the same standards as European factories. That would include safety standards and employee welfare standards.

and doom many thousands of people in the developing world to starvation, human trafficking, drug abuse and prostitution.

snubbleste · 25-04-2013 02:10PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Who the hell said they were? Why do you people have to bring this up in every thread?

Well because there isn't a 40+ page thread on it in AH, rolling 24 hour news coverage and general outrage.

25-04-2013 02:10PM

The problem here really isn't Pennys. They don't just build a factory out of cardboard and PVA glue, stick a load of sick, impoverished kids inside and then force them to work to the bone in order to provide us with cheap jeggings, while hoping that the factory doesn't collapse.

These factories exist. If we all boycotted Pennys, they'd still exist, except the income for some of them would be lower and so conditions/pay in those factories would be even worse. Pennys aren't the people to be fighting. There's a reason the majority of these factories are in other countries - there's no enforceable legislation protecting the workers. Whether or not you buy you clothes in Pennys is of very little importance to the issue.

OP, if you really are appalled, maybe you should find a way to do something more constructive than saying "F*ck you Pennys".

ScumLord · 25-04-2013 02:12PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

and doom many thousands of people in the developing world to starvation, human trafficking, drug abuse and prostitution.

They could still be cheaper, they would just have to spend the profits on upgrading their factory rather than the owner spending it on a new rolls royce or extra mansion. It's only the workers that are poor, the people in charge are making obscene amounts of money because they don't have to spend on their infrastructure like we are required to do here in Europe.

Mr Benevolent · 25-04-2013 02:15PM

Penny's all the goddamn way. I just augmented my wardrobe - 2 pairs of jeans and 2 shirts for €50. Ka-ching!

ScumLord · 25-04-2013 02:16PM

true-or-false wrote: »

OP, if you really are appalled, maybe you should find a way to do something more constructive than saying "F*ck you Pennys".

Money talks at the end of the day, it's the consumer that has the final say and businesses will follow the money. If consumers demand cheap goods the provider will source the cheapest goods.

The actions of pennies do force terrible working conditions. If the factory tells them they need to spend money on workers conditions Pennies will just move to the next factory that doesn't give a damn about workers conditions and will pay the employee the least, meaning cheaper goods.

The only way to avoid this is for consumers in Europe to spend their money ethically. The 3rd world countries would adapt to meet that demand.

bacon n eggs · 25-04-2013 02:17PM

tsk ffs sometimes ye just can't afford to be ethical.

1ZRed · 25-04-2013 02:23PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Fine sentiments, but unfortunately a load of bollix in reality.
Allmost all your clothes, food + electronics were produced using exploited in some cases practically slave labour. That's the world we live in.

It's what keeps things cheap. I bet this OP would be complaining if we did away with all that and then had to pay a premium for our stuff as a result. Either way, people won't be happy.

Suck it up OP, that's the world and there will always be exploitation no matter what.

Amirani · 25-04-2013 02:29PM

snubbleste wrote: »

Well because there isn't a 40+ page thread on it in AH, rolling 24 hour news coverage and general outrage.

How do you know there's not rolling 24 news coverage of this in Bangladesh? I presume there wasn't a significant amount of coverage devoted to Boston on TV over there.

The biggest thread on AH at the moment is "Unpopular Opinions.", is that more newsworthy than either of these events?

looking_around · 25-04-2013 02:36PM

do something about it then OP, start, searching out where the material comes from, where the clothes is stitched and find the one that pays their workers the best. You gonna do that, are you?

wonderfulname · 25-04-2013 02:39PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Not if you buy European, at least then you know that working conditions and pay are at a minimum standard. Most people probably aren't aware there are European standards for just about every product and practice in Europe. These standards ensure that the product will do what it's supposed to do, safely.

This sadly isn't always true, 'made in Italy' for example, generally means made in a sweat shop north of Naples by someone working more hours than is legal for less money, you should read/watch Gomorrah. It's just the world we live in, sourcing ethically produced anything takes a bit of effort.

25-04-2013 02:45PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Money talks at the end of the day, it's the consumer that has the final say and businesses will follow the money. If consumers demand cheap goods the provider will source the cheapest goods.

The actions of pennies do force terrible working conditions. If the factory tells them they need to spend money on workers conditions Pennies will just move to the next factory that doesn't give a damn about workers conditions and will pay the employee the least, meaning cheaper goods.

The only way to avoid this is for consumers in Europe to spend their money ethically. The 3rd world countries would adapt to meet that demand.

IMHO, while this might work in certain industries, people refusing to buy in Pennys because of sweatshops are only making themselves feel better. They're not actually making any difference.

Arcsin · 25-04-2013 02:50PM

snubbleste wrote: »

Anyone know why 3 lives in Boston are far more newsworthy than 200+ lives in Dhaka

Because we are much closer in almost every respect to the US than to Bangladesh.

lukesmom · 25-04-2013 02:53PM

Don't blame penneys. Blame the workers. They should have had one arm holding up the roof and the other on the sewing machines. Tsk standards!

Duggy747 · 25-04-2013 02:54PM

Why do you people talk about this when 4 million martians died today in the intergallactic war of Rigel 8???

Dravokivich · 25-04-2013 02:58PM

The Queen of England wrote: »

You can buy the entire contents of your local Penneys shop for under €50 but at what cost?

Is this a trick question?

Arcsin · 25-04-2013 03:01PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

Is this a trick question?

Cost to me: €50
Cost to anyone else: their problem

Freddy Smelly · 25-04-2013 03:18PM

lukesmom wrote: »

Don't blame penneys. Blame the workers. They should have had one arm holding up the roof and the other on the sewing machines. Tsk standards!

lol i bet someone knicked the lead flashing and the roof came crashing down

Czarcasm · 25-04-2013 03:31PM

BUBBLE WRAP wrote: »

In fairness Pennys clothes are great ......

.... If you're homeless...

It's weird you'd put it that way BW and I'm not saying this is the general case or anything but in my voluntary work I have a lot to do with helping homeless people and those in hostels, etc, and I've met a fair few that their top alone would cost more than I'd pay for a whole new outfit. To give an example-

Yesterday I met one chap (now I know this guy a while, nice chap really, so this isn't about him personally), but we were chatting away anyway and he was telling me he got kicked out of the hostel again for not paying his rent, etc, but just to look at him he dresses in the best of Nike and Addidas and the sporty runners, etc, and telling me about the new tattoo he just had done, and at this point I just had to pull him up on it and say "You're all about the fancy shìt and the tattoos, etc, and you're fcuking homeless! Come on like, get your shìt together!".

I get frustrated with him because to give a breakdown of exactly what I was wearing at the same time-

Penneys jocks, socks and tee shirt - €10
Penneys black suit pants - €10
Penneys shirt and tie set - €5
Dunnes Stores shoes - €25

Total Cost - €50, and this chap's tattoo alone was €70, and putting on the poor mouth because he couldn't, sorry- wouldn't, pay his rent.

Long story short OP- I won't be guilt tripped because bad shìt happens, I get it hard enough to look out for myself, let alone those people I care about in my immediate community, and you want me to give a shìt about something that happens in Bangladesh, something which I have completely and utterly no control over?

As politely as possible OP but stop it with that nonsense. Take a look around your own back yard first before you try to fix the problems in Bangladesh half a world away from you!

25-04-2013 03:34PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Not if you buy European, at least then you know that working conditions and pay are at a minimum standard. Most people probably aren't aware there are European standards for just about every product and practice in Europe. These standards ensure that the product will do what it's supposed to do, safely.

I've read several books which give descriptions of low-paid North Africans and Chinese workers in **** conditions in Italy making designer clothes. Just because we have standards doesn't mean they're always followed.

ScumLord · 25-04-2013 04:12PM

true-or-false wrote: »

IMHO, while this might work in certain industries, people refusing to buy in Pennys because of sweatshops are only making themselves feel better. They're not actually making any difference.

On an individual basis one shopper isn't worth much, it would take the majority of shoppers to change their shopping habits before supermarket chains would take any notice. All you can say is that you're not contributing to the problem.

Deleted User wrote: »

I've read several books which give descriptions of low-paid North Africans and Chinese workers in **** conditions in Italy making designer clothes. Just because we have standards doesn't mean they're always followed.

The standards are for the most part voluntary, the other problem with them is that any company can say they satisfy the standard but unless they're getting external independent audits their promise isn't worth anything.

neil_18_ · 25-04-2013 04:20PM

Anyone who thinks more expensive brands are not made in the same conditions needs a dose of reality!

It's too easy to criticize brands like Penneys because they have low prices, when it's the more upmarket brands who use the same factories and sell at much higher mark-ups.

25-04-2013 04:27PM

ScumLord wrote: »

On an individual basis one shopper isn't worth much, it would take the majority of shoppers to change their shopping habits before supermarket chains would take any notice. All you can say is that you're not contributing to the problem.

Even if the boycott was large enough, I'm still not convinced. The entire marketing strategy of Pennys is, let's face it, based on cheap clothes. No one goes there for the edgy designs, great customer service, or long-lasting quality. If Pennys could no longer make a profit due to boycotting, they'd more than likely close some shops, rather than redesign their entire image and the way they run their business. This wouldn't put those sweatshop workers in a lovely, well ventilated, well paid position. It would put them on the street.

But that's okay, because people wouldn't have to feel guilty for buying from Pennys anymore.

wolfpawnat · 25-04-2013 04:27PM

Have you read the label of Tommy Hilfiger and other companies? Unless China and Malaysia are different counties in the state of California, they are doing the same thing!

I rather shop at Penny's rather than lining the pockets on those "designers".

ScumLord · 25-04-2013 04:39PM

true-or-false wrote: »

Even if the boycott was large enough, I'm still not convinced. The entire marketing strategy of Pennys is, let's face it, based on cheap clothes.

Well, cheaper clothes than their competitors to be more accurate. If the standard was raised across the board, Pennies could still be the cheapest on the market.

If Pennys could no longer make a profit due to boycotting, they'd more than likely close some shops, rather than redesign their entire image and the way they run their business.

They're range is designed on a seasonal basis as far as I know. It's also as hard if not harder to make clothes to just the right standard of cheapness. They don't have to change the way they do business at all. Everything works the same it's just the numbers are changed. People will still need clothes, Pennies would still be the cheapest.

This wouldn't put those sweatshop workers in a lovely, well ventilated, well paid position. It would put them on the street.

Sweatshops could still operate on the blackmarket and probably get more money for their work. It would however allow legitimate businesses to sell to Europe with protection. As it is, they have no job security, no incentive to improve and no prospects to learn from European manufacturers. They're being abused and because they're so poor they have no choice but to like it.

The Cost of Cheap Clothes

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