Minimum each way price?

kiers47 · 08-04-2013 10:41PM #1

A recent chat I had with a few friends got me thinking. What is the minimum price people will back e/w or if they have a minimum at all.

Myself I always think of it as 2 desperate bets so I guess I don't really have a min but I tend to not push below the 2/1 Mark to often. I know this might seem strange to some to those that do I will ask this would you also consider it strange if I had a 50 win bet in a race at 2/1 then in a different race I had 50 on a horse to be placed at 1/2?

jkell061 · 08-04-2013 10:48PM

I don't think I've ever backed anything smaller than 6/1 ew. Unless its in a lucky 15 or something. But that's just me. Generally if its under 8s I'll back a win or over 8s ew

ShaneU · 08-04-2013 10:54PM

Depends how confident I am that the horse will win. Wouldn't back anything lower than 4/1 each way

SRFC · 09-04-2013 02:21AM

In a filthy ew race its reccomended to bet ew at less than 4/1,Personally I dont back horses ew unless its 20/1 or bigger,I take it as either wins or it doesnt, places dont interest me when one clicks at a big price and you have the lot on the nose its worth all them win bets that placed to me anyways.

rossom · 09-04-2013 03:27AM

It all depends on the horse/race in question for me. If I feel that I can't see a horse out of the first 3 (but feel there is a significant danger for the win purpose) I will have a substantial e/w on anything down to 4/1. A recent example that springs to mind was Sir Des Champs in the Gold Cup. He was never going to be out of the first 3 but faced a very significant danger for victory in the shape of Bobs Worth. As it transpired, he came out 2nd best but each way players got their money back.

However, this would not be common practice for me and normally anything in single figures is a win only bet for me.

I think you've got to be open to adapting your betting style for each race as no two races are the same and, as such, your interpretation should be reflected in your betting strategy in that race.

Slattsy · 09-04-2013 09:45AM

If it's 1/4 the odds the horse would have to be 16s or bigger.
20/1 and up the rest.

Rarely back ew anyway. Maybe if I think the fav could be tough be beat at something like evens then I'll try find a place horse at big prices.

billy2012 · 09-04-2013 09:50AM

EW FTW!! They are clever bets. All depends on the race being a handicap or not. 4/1 - even money. 8 runners Great bet!!

kiers47 · 09-04-2013 09:50AM

Ya I definitely agree that you have to be open in how you bet. I tend to look at the betfair place market for a reference. So say if something is trading at evens for a place and I can back him at 6/1 1/4 odds first 3/4 I usually take it as a huge positive as I'm getting 6/4 for the place. It really depends on the race alright I could sometimes lay the win part off shorter etc...

harry Bailey esq · 09-04-2013 09:52AM

for a single i wouldn't back e/w on anything less than 5/1,a place at that price would pay even money,sometimes just over evens if its a quarter the odds,that said i would often have shorter priced runners in an e/w lucky 15.

Colonel Sanders · 09-04-2013 11:03AM

No minimum really

As was already stated I think of an each way bet as 2 separate (albeit dependant) win & place bets.

Even if I only want to bet win only if the the Betfair place price is a good bit shorter I'll back each way & lay the place. If I'm betting each way at sub 4/1 I always try do it in cash in an office rather than online. Betting on Bad each way races are a sure fire way to get clamped

byronbay2 · 09-04-2013 11:19AM

rossom wrote: »

It all depends on the horse/race in question for me. If I feel that I can't see a horse out of the first 3 (but feel there is a significant danger for the win purpose) I will have a substantial e/w on anything down to 4/1. A recent example that springs to mind was Sir Des Champs in the Gold Cup. He was never going to be out of the first 3 but faced a very significant danger for victory in the shape of Bobs Worth. As it transpired, he came out 2nd best but each way players got their money back.

However, this would not be common practice for me and normally anything in single figures is a win only bet for me.

I think you've got to be open to adapting your betting style for each race as no two races are the same and, as such, your interpretation should be reflected in your betting strategy in that race.

Yeah, I agree. Rarely bet e/w but certain races have a good shape for an each way bet i.e small field (8-10 runners), short priced favourite, several no-hopers etc. In particular, if you have a consistent horse who jumps well and always performs to a certain (decent) level, against a short-priced favourite who has lots of potential but otherwise very little other competition in the race, it sometimes makes sense to bet e/w, as (even if your selection is beaten) it is very unlikely that your horse will find 3 to beat it in the race.

To answer the question, I think I once backed e/w at 7/2 (@ 1/4 odds) and that was the shortest price I ever took. Funnily enough, I am currently considering a large e/w bet on Tiger to win The Masters @ 4/1 (1/4 odds, 6 places in PP). Before last year, he had been in the top 6 for the previous 7 years (and has won 4 times, of course) and is incredibly consistent in this event. I realise that this scenario is completely at odds with the advice given above - there is an exception to every rule!:D

sting60 · 09-04-2013 11:23AM

billy2012 wrote: »

EW FTW!! They are clever bets. All depends on the race being a handicap or not. 4/1 - even money. 8 runners Great bet!!

Since when is e/w 4/1 an 1/1 return on a place.Its approx 1/100 to your e/w stake with you having a free bet and the bookmaker having a free lay in the hope you are placed.I cannot see why people back e/w you either fancy it or not.An example had 200e on Elleval 25/1 in Dubai as I knew he was going to run a blinder and finished second,would have got 5/1 a place.I backed a horseThe Barber Kelly last year in Dundalk I was told was ready and had 200e @33/1 now if I was to back it e/w @100e look at my losses.

Morgans · 09-04-2013 11:56AM

because if you had backed elleval each way, you are getting 5/1 to finish in the first three (25/1 divided by 5) minus your win stake.

Therefore an effective 4/1 winner if elleval finished in the first three.

Some people can turn up their noses at 4/1 winners, some people like them. If its 4/1 or better in the place market, there is no point in betting each way.

UrbanSea · 09-04-2013 12:25PM

But Morgans this is a bit of a misconception I think. Say if a horse is 20/1 1/4 the odds, people say ''it's like a 5/1 winner''.

tenner each way on a 20/1 shot that gets placed returns 60 euro. Effectively a 2/1 winner

Morgans · 09-04-2013 12:35PM

You can look at it that way. I think its wrong though, but its a semantic arguement really.

Lets suppose you have two bets in two individual races

€20 Horse A @20/1 = Lost (loss €20)
€20 Horse B @4/1 = Won (profit €80)

I dont think people say that they have a 3/1 winner (combining the two bets) cos the total of the two bets combined were €80 (profit) - €40 (staked) + €20 (refunded stake)

Most people would say had a 4/1 winner and a 20/1 loser. That is how I view each way betting.

I look at it as two separate bets.

One to win the race (20/1). One to finish in the place (20/1 divided by place terms)

Each way only means you are forced to put them together. Its why the place market doesnt reflect the price of (SP/place terms).

Colonel Sanders · 09-04-2013 12:41PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

But Morgans this is a bit of a misconception I think. Say if a horse is 20/1 1/4 the odds, people say ''it's like a 5/1 winner''.

tenner each way on a 20/1 shot that gets placed returns 60 euro. Effectively a 2/1 winner

I disagree, it's a 5/1 winner but to unlock 5/1 the place you have to also place a win only bet at 20/1

That's exactly why I think of 2 separate, but dependant, bets. Often it can work out pretty well EV-wise to take a loss of EV on the win part to unlock huge +EV on the place part (and your overall EV on both bets combined is +ive). Happened many, many times when Frankel was winning at hugely prohibitive odds on prices

What I've also done is bet a horse each way and actually laid back the WIN PART (sometimes at a small loss) to unlock a hugely advantageous place price that can only be got at by having an each way bet

Slattsy · 09-04-2013 12:46PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

But Morgans this is a bit of a misconception I think. Say if a horse is 20/1 1/4 the odds, people say ''it's like a 5/1 winner''.

tenner each way on a 20/1 shot that gets placed returns 60 euro. Effectively a 2/1 winner

Exactly !! Thats what people dont get.
and why i rarely back ew unless i think the fav is a good thing. (but too short to back)

UrbanSea · 09-04-2013 12:46PM

I see.

Slattsy · 09-04-2013 12:48PM

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I disagree, it's a 5/1 winner but to unlock 5/1 the place you have to also place a win only bet at 20/1

That's exactly why I think of 2 separate, but dependant, bets. Often it can work out pretty well EV-wise to take a loss of EV on the win part to unlock huge +EV on the place part (and your overall EV on both bets is +ive). Happened many, many times when Frankel was winning at hugely prohibitive odds on prices

What I've also done is bet a horse each way and actually laid back the WIN PART (sometimes at a small loss) to unlock a hugely advantageous place price that can only be got at by having an each way bet

For people not on betfair though.........

sting60 · 09-04-2013 12:49PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

But Morgans this is a bit of a misconception I think. Say if a horse is 20/1 1/4 the odds, people say ''it's like a 5/1 winner''.

tenner each way on a 20/1 shot that gets placed returns 60 euro. Effectively a 2/1 winner

Correct.So I wonder why bookies are falling over themselves offering all these wonder e/w deals.Since when did bookmakers do anything that is not in their interest.

kksaints · 09-04-2013 01:00PM

Generally around 10/1 would be my minimum price.

Morgans · 09-04-2013 01:36PM

sting60 wrote: »

Correct.So I wonder why bookies are falling over themselves offering all these wonder e/w deals.Since when did bookmakers do anything that is not in their interest.

Having worked in a bookies, each way thieves and especially each way doubles are the bets that they hate. Far more so than single bets.

Morgans · 09-04-2013 01:42PM

sting60 wrote: »

Correct.So I wonder why bookies are falling over themselves offering all these wonder e/w deals.Since when did bookmakers do anything that is not in their interest.

What wonder each way deals. If anything the bookies on course (in england) are going 1/5 and 1/6 the odds (where online and in most high street bookies its 1/4 and 1/5. You arent engaging with the logic above.

Day at the races, you bet on two horses, one loses at 20/1 and one wins at 5/1. You dont come out and say that I had one winner at 3/1 today.

Also, the win part of the each way bet isnt automatically a loser. You arent throwing that away.

Colonel Sanders · 09-04-2013 01:44PM

Morgans wrote: »

Having worked in a bookies, each way thieves and especially each way doubles are the bets that they hate.

They'll also get your online/phone a/c closed quicker than most other bets, I'm guessing with the exception of blatant arbing

the groutch · 09-04-2013 03:33PM

most of my e/w bets at short odds would be in an Lucky 15, and especially with "bad e/w" races

eg. 1/4f 5/1 12/1 bar (9 runners)

the 2nd favorite would pay even money on the place part, where it might be 4/7 or 4/6 at best in the place only markets.

Hulk Hands · 09-04-2013 07:37PM

What Morgans and CS are saying here is correct. Done correctly, each way is a punter best friend. And there should be no minimum. In fact, usually the best each way bets are the shorter odds ones.

I got slated in here for backing Hurricane Fly each way when Hills went 3/1 for the CH. What those clowns at the time failed to realise, was that the win and each way were 2 seperate bets. I was getting 5/6 on HF placing. That was a 2/5 shot on the day. So by placing that bet I was getting value in both markets, but was probably getting more value off the each way side.

A few days later, with Hills offer of 5 places e/w in the Supreme (probably the best offer we'll ever see), I backed MTOY e/w at 2/1 for the Supreme, and laid off the win part on betfair. By backing e/w, I was getting 1/2 on him finishing in the first 5. That was probably about a 1/8 shot in reality. So there's proof why there should be no minimum to each way bets.

Picking out correct e/w bets is they key. If you back 1/5 odds in 15 runner fields, the bookies will love that. Backing 1/4 odds in 8 runner fields, bookie's will hate. A simple way of checking is just check the place market on Betfair. If the odds are much shorter than the e/w odds you are getting, then you are generally onto a winner. One thing that must be remembered is that if you aren't laying off the win part, you must factor in the win part's true price. e.g, sprinter sacre goes to Punchestown and there's 8 runners 1/4 odds. Sizing Europe is 6/1, and 1.8 to place on betfair. A good e/w bet so. However, you must factor in how much e/v you are losing on the win part. If he is 10/1 to win in real odds (betfair), you have a decision to make.

For an example of a bad e/w market, look at next season's premier league betting. Man City are best priced 11/5 1/3 odds e/w, paying 2 places. If anyone fancies them to win at those odds, they should consider going e/w. They would be getting almost 8/11 on the each way part. In reality, Man City's odds of finishing in the top 2 would be closer to 2/5.

Overthelast · 09-04-2013 07:53PM

Each way doubles are one of my favourite bets . Glad to hear bookies hate them!

I always only considered ew at min 4/1 due to 1/4 the odds. Having read this thread, I'm going to have to reconsider that policy. Some interesting angles. I don't play the exchanges ( probably for the same reason I was the last person in Ireland to embrace mobile phone technology)

Hulk Hands · 09-04-2013 08:06PM

Overthelast wrote: »

Each way doubles are one of my favourite bets . Glad to hear bookies hate them!

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Generally bookies love doubles. If you are betting on two bad e/w races, then certainly, the double goes in your favour. However, if you have one good e/w selection, and one poor, then you are giving up your advantage. The kicker being that it's hard to find two bad e/w races on one day/card. I am open to correction on that though, it's a bet i'd very rarely do.

fangee · 10-04-2013 10:38AM

3/1.

klairondavis · 10-04-2013 10:50PM

I would regularly back horses as low as 5/2 each way.

15-04-2013 12:40AM

Slattsy wrote: »

For people not on betfair though.........

You are really really losing out if you're not on Betfair if you punt frequently for sums of money that's over coinage unless you just back shorties

There's ridiculous value on Betfair for horses that are over 5/1 in the highstreet (generally speaking).

For people who back short priced selections heavily the traditional bookies are better with BOG etc etc.

Minimum each way price?

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