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Austerity isn't really working is it?

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Comments

  • #392
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Yea, you're arguing in bad faith, because you know that Eurobonds are centralized EU bonds paid back by the entire EU, with Germany not even being one quarter of the EU.

    Such a ridiculously obvious misrepresentation, that it can only be deliberate.
    ffs, have managed to string a handful of posts together in the last month were you don't accuse someone of deliberate misrepresentation?


    By the way, the post you quoted says "German and other financially prudent taxpayers'.


  • #393
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    So there is no consequence for Germany or other prudent nations if some country defaults on its Eurobonds?
    Centralized EU bonds; countries don't default on them, they are EU wide; the EU as a whole has to default on them.
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Some sort of central planning system? Who decides what is worthy? What if all the 'worthy' projects are in Germany, or France?
    Oh look more straw-men, no mention of central-planning anywhere in the thread, yet apparently that's what I must be arguing for; the 'socialist' label (i.e. the "if anyone disagrees with me just label them a social" tactic) is next to come up.
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    You are putting forward a Europe that does not exist and claiming that solutions exist in that Europe. Other people are pointing out that the Europe you discuss does not exist, so your proposed solutions are not possible.
    More trite nonsense; I've even explicitly said I don't expect the EU to implement recovery policies (due to Germany), that doesn't change the fact that these alternatives exist, and that they debunk the 'austerity is an immutable economic necessity' argument, when the hurdles are all political.

    Anyway, well past time I've given up responding to you at this stage; you have zero interest in honest argument, and love to misrepresent arguments you reply to, when you don't have a substantive response to actual real argument.


  • #394
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    For those interested the subject of Austerity is being discussed on RTE Radio 1 news shortly.


  • #395
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Phoebas wrote: »
    ffs, have managed to string a handful of posts together in the last month were you don't accuse someone of deliberate misrepresentation?


    By the way, the post you quoted says "German and other financially prudent taxpayers'.
    Not where it's clear the posters are arguing in bad faith, no; I always point that out very directly when I see it.

    Here is what was said:
    Eurobonds, backed essentially by the German and other financially prudent taxpayers, borrowed by the Irish government (and paid back with what?) and used to hire 200,000 people for made-up jobs
    The bonds are not borrowed by the Irish government, from "German and other financially prudent taxpayers" (which implies heavily, for starters, that this doesn't include Ireland), but are centralized EU bonds, which necessarilly means they are borrowed by the EU itself, and paid back by the whole EU.


  • #396
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Centralized EU bonds; countries don't default on them, they are EU wide; the EU as a whole has to default on them.
    So if Ireland does not repay them, then someone else has to: e.g. prudent taxpayers from other countries?
    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Oh look more straw-men, no mention of central-planning anywhere in the thread, yet apparently that's what I must be arguing for; the 'socialist' label (i.e. the "if anyone disagrees with me just label them a social" tactic) is next to come up.
    You talked about an organisation that decided what projects were worthy - have you abandoned that idea already after 10 minutes? Please stop changing your position every few minutes.
    KyussBishop wrote: »
    More trite nonsense; I've even explicitly said I don't expect the EU to implement recovery policies (due to Germany), that doesn't change the fact that these alternatives exist, and that they debunk the 'austerity is an immutable economic necessity' argument, when the hurdles are all political.
    The alternative exists only in an alternative universe - and even then your alternative is ridiculous.

    Your idea is so silly, a child could see through it - if you could explain it clearly enough, that is. Central planning, then no central planning; the Germans and others don't have to pay and then they do...

    Jokeshop.


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  • #397
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Not where it's clear the posters are arguing in bad faith, no; I always point that out very directly when I see it.

    Here is what was said:

    The bonds are not borrowed by the Irish government, from "German and other financially prudent taxpayers" (which implies heavily, for starters, that this doesn't include Ireland), but are centralized EU bonds, which necessarilly means they are borrowed by the EU itself, and paid back by the whole EU.
    That is hilarious - in a quote defending yourself from deliberate misrepresentation, you deliberately misquote a post that you have copied and pasted!!

    Unless you think that 'backed by' means 'borrowed from'?* In which case, please learn some basic finance before presuming to lecture others on it. :rolleyes:

    *actually, a lot of stuff is starting to make sense now.


  • #398
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Don't know if its already been said, but until the salaries of the Dail come down DRASTICALLY, I wont fight my fellow Irish folk about what they should or shouldn't pay or cut.
    When our ruling classes cut their salaries, and put the meat on the bones of the Rhetoric they regularly shove down our throats, only then will I look at what should be getting cut etc elsewhere. Until that happens, I think its morally repugnant that we as citizens should be arguing with each other as to which of us should be paying more or having income taken or cut. No doubt we will have disagreements as to what should rise and what should be cut, but it woud be great if we could at least be unified about this first.

    A TD gets €92,672pa + expenses.
    Junior ministers get €37,000 on top of that.
    A full minister gets €77,000 on top of it.
    Tanaiste gets €92,000 on top of it, and
    Taoiseach gets €108,000 on top of it.


  • #399
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Centralized EU bonds; countries don't default on them, they are EU wide; the EU as a whole has to default on them.


    Oh look more straw-men, no mention of central-planning anywhere in the thread, yet apparently that's what I must be arguing for; the 'socialist' label (i.e. the "if anyone disagrees with me just label them a social" tactic) is next to come up.


    More trite nonsense; I've even explicitly said I don't expect the EU to implement recovery policies (due to Germany), that doesn't change the fact that these alternatives exist, and that they debunk the 'austerity is an immutable economic necessity' argument, when the hurdles are all political.

    Anyway, well past time I've given up responding to you at this stage; you have zero interest in honest argument, and love to misrepresent arguments you reply to, when you don't have a substantive response to actual real argument.


    Am I understanding you correctly?

    You want the EU as a whole to issue Eurobonds. With that revenue you want projects in Ireland to be funded which would boost are economy thus eliminating the fiscal gap?


  • #400
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Centralized EU bonds; countries don't default on them, they are EU wide; the EU as a whole has to default on them.

    And if a country defaults...? If Greece owed, say 100bn in Eurobonds, and was only able to pay back 50bn, then who has picked up the slack, if the other countries haven't?

    The funny thing about your idea is that there are countries much worse off than us, and you can bet Irish people will be the first to cry foul if large sums of Irish taxpayers money was being used to shore up a Greek default with the idea that there will be zero return for this money as it's simple function would be to fill up a black hole left by an inept government.

    Eurobonds are one thing, but what you're imagining is off the charts in terms of realism and workability.


  • #401
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    JimiTime wrote: »
    A TD gets €92,672pa + expenses.
    Junior ministers get €37,000 on top of that.
    A full minister gets €77,000 on top of it.
    Tanaiste gets €92,000 on top of it, and
    Taoiseach gets €108,000 on top of it.
    Jimi, I don't think the salaries are waaaay out of whack - they are a bit too high, but halving them would be too much. Otherwise it will be very hard to get competent people to do the job.

    What I have a problem with is their massive pensions that they can start collecting long before retirement age. They should certainly be cut to ribbons.


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  • #402
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    Am I understanding you correctly?

    You want the EU as a whole to issue Eurobonds. With that revenue you want projects in Ireland to be funded which would boost are economy thus eliminating the fiscal gap?
    I know, it's hilarious. "Thanks well-run countries - we'll take cash borrowed cheaply by taking a ride on your creditworthiness, and it will be spent on us...oh, and if we default again, you guys have to pay for us..." :eek:


  • #403
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Jimi, I don't think the salaries are waaaay out of whack - they are a bit too high, but halving them would be too much. Otherwise it will be very hard to get competent people to do the job.

    What I have a problem with is their massive pensions that they can start collecting long before retirement age. They should certainly be cut to ribbons.

    The problem is we don't have competent people as it stands. Money does not guarantee competency especially in politics.


  • #404
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Yes its working so well:rolleyes:

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/eurozone-jobless-rate-hits-record-12-589895.html


  • #405
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    Am I understanding you correctly?

    You want the EU as a whole to issue Eurobonds. With that revenue you want projects in Ireland to be funded which would boost are economy thus eliminating the fiscal gap?
    No, I want projects across the whole EU to be funded, and through reaching full employment, close the output (GDP) gap, which then raises tax revenue and helps close the fiscal gap (but wouldn't close it completely), then close the fiscal gap (but not at the expense of full employment, as that will widen the output gap again).

    This gets much needed money flowing through economies, built upon sustainable Eurobonds, whereas per-state debt is currently unsustainable for many countries.


  • #406
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    And if a country defaults...? If Greece owed, say 100bn in Eurobonds, and was only able to pay back 50bn, then who has picked up the slack, if the other countries haven't?

    The funny thing about your idea is that there are countries much worse off than us, and you can bet Irish people will be the first to cry foul if large sums of Irish taxpayers money was being used to shore up a Greek default with the idea that there will be zero return for this money as it's simple function would be to fill up a black hole left by an inept government.

    Eurobonds are one thing, but what you're imagining is off the charts in terms of realism and workability.
    Eurobonds are not held by any countries; the EU in its entirely, would have to default on them.

    Countries do not owe Eurobonds, the entire EU does; it's like treating the EU as a single country, with Eurobonds being the EU's national debt.

    It's exactly like the US federal government taking on debt, and investing it in individual states; the states don't themselves pay that back, the US as a whole does.

    EDIT: And no; no Irish money goes to paying Greek investment programs, the money is sourced from the private markets that invest in the bonds, and the EU as a whole pays off the stock of bonds over time (which will represent liabilities for investments all over the EU).


  • #407
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    No, I want projects across the whole EU to be funded, and through reaching full employment, close the output (GDP) gap, which then raises tax revenue and helps close the fiscal gap (but wouldn't close it completely), then close the fiscal gap (but not at the expense of full employment, as that will widen the output gap again).

    This gets much needed money flowing through economies, built upon sustainable Eurobonds, whereas per-state debt is currently unsustainable for many countries.

    When you say it like that, it sounds so easy. But when we ask you how it would work, it falls apart like chocolate hammer.


  • #408
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Eurobonds are not held by any countries; the EU in its entirely, would have to default on them.

    Countries do not owe Eurobonds, the entire EU does; it's like treating the EU as a single country, with Eurobonds being the EU's national debt.

    It's exactly like the US federal government taking on debt, and investing it in individual states; the states don't themselves pay that back, the US as a whole does.
    So what happens when Ireland does not repay, or Greece? The whole EU defaults on the debt? :confused:


  • #409
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    EDIT: And no; no Irish money goes to paying Greek investment programs, the money is sourced from the private markets that invest in the bonds, and the EU as a whole pays off the stock of bonds over time (which will represent liabilities for investments all over the EU).
    Um...where does the money to repay these bonds come from? Also, what does the expression 'liabilities for investments' mean? Because it doesn't make any sense as written.


  • #410
    Tazz T
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,240 ✭✭✭Tazz T


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Great! You believe there is an alternative!

    So - imagine you are in government today. What do you do? What is your alternative plan?

    Unfortunately, I'm not in government. Had I been, I would not have bailed out the banks and we would not be in this position.

    As it stands, I'd impose a superlevy on the banks and the developer consortiums, put 50% tax on the billions of oil we're giving away free to other countries, start a back to work programme training and employing people to build tidal energy generators around our coasts and become the powerhouse of Europe.

    The failure of austerity won't be seen for another five years. It's only just beginning.


  • #411
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Um...where does the money to repay these bonds come from? Also, what does the expression 'liabilities for investments' mean? Because it doesn't make any sense as written.
    As I've said, likely reaching a dozen times now, the money for repayment comes from the entire EU, as set out in EU budgets. No country specifically pays for another countries investments, they repay the private bondholders who bought up the EU bonds.


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  • #412
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Tazz T wrote: »
    put 50% tax on the billions of oil we're giving away free to other countries
    :D


  • #413
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    As I've said, likely reaching a dozen times now, the money for repayment comes from the entire EU, as set out in EU budgets. No country specifically pays for another countries investments, they repay the private bondholders who bought up the EU bonds.
    Ok, so taxpayers in Germany and Finland and the Netherlands repay money borrowed by Spain and Greece to hire state employees?


  • #414
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    Phoebas wrote: »
    No thanks. If nobody up to now has been able to convince you of the different impacts on the labour market that different types of taxation have, then I fear that I'll fail too.

    To be honest i dont want you to waste ink if its just going to be more theory.

    (btw the arguments make sense but so did the universe revolving around the earth at one time. Arguments dont prove anything neither yours nor mine)


  • #415
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    Tazz T wrote: »
    Unfortunately, I'm not in government. Had I been, I would not have bailed out the banks and we would not be in this position.
    That makes two of us, on both counts...
    Tazz T wrote: »
    As it stands, I'd impose a superlevy on the banks and the developer consortiums, put 50% tax on the billions of oil we're giving away free to other countries
    Point of information: we haven't given any oil away to any other countries.
    Tazz T wrote: »
    start a back to work programme training and employing people to build tidal energy generators around our coasts and become the powerhouse of Europe.
    That sounds expensive, and would probably destroy much of our coastline. It's an idea though, but unlikely to be a silver bullet.
    Tazz T wrote: »
    The failure of austerity won't be seen for another five years. It's only just beginning.
    Well, Germany underwent its own austerity unpleasantness in the 90s, and it's in very good shape now. Hopefully the same can be said of the rest of us.


  • #416
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    What?

    look up the word continuity...


  • #417
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Ok, so taxpayers in Germany and Finland and the Netherlands repay money borrowed by Spain and Greece to hire state employees?
    What part of the entire EU, the EU borrows the money, and no country specifically pays for another countries investments does not make sense?

    The US government sells bonds, and provides investment funding to individual states; now just apply this same logic to the EU, as it's that simple; fiscally and monetarily it treats the EU like a single country.


  • #418
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    What part of the entire EU, the EU borrows the money, and no country specifically pays for another countries investments does not make sense?

    The US government sells bonds, and provides investment funding to individual states; now just apply this same logic to the EU, as it's that simple; fiscally and monetarily it treats the EU like a single country.

    The problem is Europe will be worse off after all these projects are finished. The cost including interest will likely be far more detrimental than the benefit of these "projects".


  • #419
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    look up the word continuity...
    I think your suggestion that we adopt eugenics is a poor one.


  • #420
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    What part of the entire EU, the EU borrows the money, and no country specifically pays for another countries investments does not make sense?

    The US government sells bonds, and provides investment funding to individual states; now just apply this same logic to the EU, as it's that simple; fiscally and monetarily it treats the EU like a single country.

    A few problems with this:

    1. There is NO UNITED STATES OF EUROPE
    2. There is no political will to form a united states of Europe
    3. I don't think Irish people would be happy with their taxes paying for roads in Croatia. I don't think German people would be happy with their taxes paying for projects in Ireland.

    Do you disagree with any of these points? (by the way, I'm glad that I finally seem to understand your proposal)


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  • #421
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    darkhorse wrote: »
    What Part of 'Austerity Isn't Working' Don't People Get? | Jared ...

    Any article claiming that the US is engaging in austerity has zero credibility. That you even have use such an article to back up your position shows how flawed your position is.
    K-9 wrote: »
    Employers paying minimum wage have already had a 50% cut in Employer PRSI, maybe it is time to look at other costs rather hit employees again.

    Just because it is called Employer's PRSI doesn't mean it is paid by employers.


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