Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

24567…137

Comments

  • #32
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Good loser wrote: »
    What if the mains pipe burst outside your estate? The water could be travelling 30 miles to your house and a tiny fraction of that is in 'your estate'

    Then it would come under the remit of the area where the mains burst, would it not?

    Sorry, it's so easy to get engaged in this debate [...]
    Good loser wrote: »
    Anyway the tax does not purport to be for local services, as Murphph states. In the legislation it is not ringfenced for them; it doesn't matter what 'x or y says'.

    [...] As you say it's got feck all to do with local services.

    Although it does purport to be for local services:

    The official line is:
    among other services, public parks; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities; planning and development; fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets; and street lighting. These
    facilities benefit everyone.

    You know, I could have sworn that some of those were meant to be covered by motor tax.

    Motor Tax is collected by Dublin City Council on behalf of the Department of the Environment & Local Government. This revenue is used for building and repairing roads in Dublin City.

    So maintenance and cleaning of streets and street lighting need two taxes? :pac:

    Funny how we have to separately pay for planning, development and fire services if we are having a tax to pay for them.

    Apologies, I won't mention the "local services" fake justification again, unless otherwise brought up.
    Good loser wrote: »
    Your house has a value which is higher or lower depending on your local management charges - it is net of these charges. If the charges are greater than the benefit gained the market value of the property will be lower and you will pay less tax.

    Wut? Local management charges are to pay for local services (it's privatisation). They have little to do with the hypothetical market value of the property. But the hypothetical market value of the property is being used as an indicator of how much someone is able has to pay. So people in Dublin have to pay more than people in the country. Because ... :confused:

    Because we can sell them? You can't sell where you live. Or you can, but you'll have to live somewhere else. And if you are in negative equity, for instance, you won't be able to afford to sell (and live somewhere else). Notwithstanding that the government takes a whole separate set of taxes in relation to selling and buying.


  • #33
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,260 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Is that €300 a month private health insurance? The reason people would rather have the money in their own pocket is they have no faith that their taxes are being properly spent and with good reason. Just look at the billions spent on health and people still need to spend thousands on private health insurance.
    It's compulsory state insurance, not private. It is illegal not to have health insurance if you are a resident of Germany. Those on welfare have their premiums paid by the state. If you earn above a certain threshold (I think it's 52k now), you may insure yourself privately, which is cheaper when you're younger but gets more expensive as time passes. The compulsory state insurance remains the same throughout your life. There is no "going private" here really. Most hospitals are private businesses that compete for patients.

    Ireland should dump the HSE and follow a different model IMO, maybe not the German model but something similar. But that's a different issue. An important issue, but a different issue. You can't really say "no new taxes until the HSE is fixed" because the HSE is such a mess that fixing it would take time (if the will was even there to fix it).


  • #34
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,260 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Yes. I suppose I could find a country where taxes are twice that of Germany's. Does that mean that Germans should be paying more taxes? "We shouldn't be in the EU. Switzerland. My case rests."
    Germany can balance its books though. Ireland cannot. Spending is one side of the coin, but we need to replace the windfall based taxation (stamp duty) with something more stable and predictable, or we'll have these problems over and over.
    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Will the government personally carry out evictions if the tax is not paid and there isn't sufficient capital in the offenders' bank accounts for the government to take?
    I don't think that's the plan. As far as I understand it, the debt will attach to the property (like the rates) and will have to be discharged when the property next changes hands at the latest.


  • #35
    ozmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,898 ✭✭✭ozmo


    The valuations map is published today:

    https://lpt.revenue.ie/lpt-web/valuation-guide/index.htm

    “Roll it back”



  • #36
    Good loser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,307 ✭✭✭Good loser


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Yes. I suppose I could find a country where taxes are twice that of Germany's. Does that mean that Germans should be paying more taxes? "We shouldn't be in the EU. Switzerland. My case rests."

    Sorry, you provide some good details on the taxation setup in Germany, and Germany is a country that has been able to balance its books. But I still think that the relative merits of the property tax can be debated in isolation of saying "other people are doing it so it must be right".

    Will the government personally carry out evictions if the tax is not paid and there isn't sufficient capital in the offenders' bank accounts for the government to take?

    Do you not understand that the country is running a deficit on current account that must be sorted?

    The only choice we have (re taxation) is under which heading tax should be collected. Personally it doesn't matter much to me whether it comes from my left pocket or right pocket.

    My preference would be to lower spending more.

    Would you not think it odd if this country had no income tax say or no car tax? If you were a Martian for instance?


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    jabarrett35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 456 ✭✭jabarrett35


    Just seen the Revenue site and the valuation for my area are for the birds! €150,000-200,000 for a bungalow.


  • #38
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Good loser wrote: »
    Do you not understand that the country is running a deficit on current account that must be sorted?

    The only choice we have (re taxation) is under which heading tax should be collected. Personally it doesn't matter much to me whether it comes from my left pocket or right pocket.

    My preference would be to lower spending more.

    Would you not think it odd if this country had no income tax say or no car tax? If you were a Martian for instance?

    No rational person will disagree with your assessment, the problem in Ireland is the burden of taxation. Since the emergence of evidence that crooked bankers gambled hundreds of billions of euro and the subsequent unseemly haste in which our politicians rushed to put the rest of us in hock for their debt, taxes and levies have increased exponentially, and for the most part, these have been directed at that section of the community which has to work for a living, whether they are currently employed or not. Lifestyles in the affluent sections of the community, including those very same gamblers, remain untouched. Who can forget the sight of the suntanned Sean Fitzpatrick returning from Florida to be arrested by Gardai, it would bring tears to your eyes. tears of frustration, not compassion. While in Kilbarrack, people worry about where the next meal is coming from, in Killiney, it's whether the Range Rover dealer will have the latest model in time for the New Year ball, but this is the real face of recession in Ireland. While the high earners and well connected continue to avail of tax breaks and loopholes and receive State payments worth hundreds of millions, which Governments of all persuasions have shown a strange reluctance to address, certainly not with the vigour they have shown in dismantling the Social Welfare system, taxpayer funded services are being withdrawn or curtailed to the most vulnerable
    Taxation is supposed to be equitable, much fuss was made at the time, of the TDs' and senior Civil Servants' 5% cut in salary, in response to the 5% cut in Social Welfare payments, that is not equitable, it may be equal but it is not equitable and Social Welfare recipients have taken a much larger cut in income than 5% in real terms. Many of these are home owners.
    Unfair and unsustainable taxation is driving the people of this country to despair, the Coroner's Court in Wexford, recently reported that 10 out of 14 sudden deaths in a recent month were by suicide, that is an appalling statistic which would haunt any person of conscience but our Government's response was to curtail counselling services.
    Property tax is just another inequitable tax, no provision has been made for ability to pay.
    Many elderly people are asset rich but cash poor, i.e. they live in a valuable property but exist on a meagre pension, what is the solution to this? The property they live in is probably that in which they raised their family and which may have been a modest property at time of purchase, they have since worked and paid their taxes over many years. Are they to be forced now, to sell their home because they can't afford to pay this tax? I know there have been hamfisted attempts at deferment but these just attract another tax and are another source of worry for people in this situation
    There will be the usual "hard cases, bad law" response to this but this Government came to power trumpeting fairness and equity and justice for all and have singularly failed to deliver any aspect of this, they are, after all, supposed to be our representatives, not our masters. The only "effort" that they have made on our behalf is to gain us more time, to pay more money than we owe, to people we don't owe it to, well done to them for that! Otherwise we are left with the same old, same old of empty words, lies and deceit. Contempt for the great unwashed and Marie Antoinette syndrome is endemic among our Ministers, they would do well to remember what happened to her. The worm will turn at some time, the longer it takes, the uglier it will be. The biggest shame of all is the involvement of the party of James Connolly.
    I have no problem with the concept that everybody should make a contribution to the upkeep of the State, my problem is with the flawed system of extracting that contribution and the patent unwillingness of our elected representatives to deal with it.


  • #39
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    I would say I am in the minority and would think this tax is brilliant. It is impossible to be 100% fair but they based it on things that are:

    * difficult to change
    * difficult to be subjective about

    If they based it on say square metres or number of bedrooms you'd have all sorts of chancers.

    A pretty excellent job FG.

    The only qualm I'd have is people who mgt fees should have some respite. But, I guess this will come eventually. Most people who are paying mgt fees are living in apartments or terraced houses whose property tax is much lower.

    Maybe now people will give local government as hard a time as they give RTE when they have to pay a license fee.


  • #40
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    jabarrett35 wrote: »
    Just seen the Revenue site and the valuation for my area are for the birds! €150,000-200,000 for a bungalow.

    Too high or too low?


  • #41
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,285 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I briefly accessed the site to check. Can you select your actual home?


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    EricPraline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 486 ✭✭EricPraline


    walshb wrote: »
    I briefly accessed the site to check. Can you select your actual home?
    You can select the region around your home, which will tell you what level your home falls into. Interestingly these regions are arranged based on local electoral constituency (in Dublin at least) which can still cover diverse values of houses. So in some places you see a lot of averaging between cheaper and more expensive houses. The Indo has already jumped on this:

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/property-tax-why-bono-may-end-up-paying-just-517-tax-on-his-lavish-25m-mansion-29122448.html


  • #43
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    EricPraline wrote: »
    You can select the region around your home, which will tell you what level your home falls into. Interestingly these regions are arranged based on local electoral constituency (in Dublin at least) which can still cover diverse values of houses. So in some places you see a lot of averaging between cheaper and more expensive houses. The Indo has already jumped on this:

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/property-tax-why-bono-may-end-up-paying-just-517-tax-on-his-lavish-25m-mansion-29122448.html

    But there are always going to be anomalies. I am sure Bono pays the same tv license as someone on minimum wage too and they don't take into account bono's tv is probably a cinema.


  • #44
    EricPraline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 486 ✭✭EricPraline


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    But there are always going to be anomalies. I am sure Bono pays the same tv license as someone on minimum wage too and they don't take into account bono's tv is probably a cinema.
    That's not an apt analogy, unless we were talking about a flat rate tax, such as the household charge.

    Of course the Indo is highlighting edge cases here. But using electoral boundaries will inevitably raise issues in areas with any kind diversity of housing stock.


  • #45
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    But there are always going to be anomalies. I am sure Bono pays the same tv license as someone on minimum wage too and they don't take into account bono's tv is probably a cinema.
    The only anomaly is, someone on minimum wage probably pays more tax.


  • #46
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Tim Robbins wrote: »

    Maybe now people will give local government as hard a time as they give RTE when they have to pay a license fee.

    The same incompetents will still be employed by the LA and with the same attitude. How are people supposed to get any joy from the so called executives at the LA. Changing councillors is one thing, but the staff... that's another thing.


  • #47
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    With the deferral option having a 4% interest attached to it, would this in essence make the govt money lenders of sort,m

    And if so, are they legally allowed to operate in this fashion?

    Genuine question.


  • #48
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    You could take them to court because they don't have a valid banking licence. ;)


  • #49
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    SamHall wrote: »
    With the deferral option having a 4% interest attached to it, would this in essence make the govt money lenders of sort

    They've done this for years: tax your car once for the year, pay 200. Spread it over two payments, pay €22 extra (11%). Spread it over 4 payments, that'll be €24 extra, 12%. That's a pretty steep interest rate!


  • #50
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SamHall wrote: »
    With the deferral option having a 4% interest attached to it, would this in essence make the govt money lenders of sort,m

    And if so, are they legally allowed to operate in this fashion?

    Genuine question.
    Late payment of tax has always attracted interest and penalties, so there's ample precedent.


  • #51
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    The same incompetents will still be employed by the LA and with the same attitude. How are people supposed to get any joy from the so called executives at the LA. Changing councillors is one thing, but the staff... that's another thing.
    You're right major problems. But people let a lot go. We should at least have transparency into their budgets.


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    I would say I am in the minority and would think this tax is brilliant. It is impossible to be 100% fair but they based it on things that are:

    * difficult to change
    * difficult to be subjective about

    If they based it on say square metres or number of bedrooms you'd have all sorts of chancers.

    WHAT? This tax is not at all "fairly" based on things that are difficult to be subjective about. For example, the nearest description to my house is "bungalow" which conjures up a 50's block built one storey stand alone house on a road in rural Ireland (to me). However, I am in an extremely damp 3 bed, 1 bath one storey stone-built house with an attic conversion to 2 extra bedrooms that you can't stand up in, no insulation and access through a neighbour's yard.

    The valuation on the Revenue site was derived from the average taken on local properties including a bungalow with 3 bed that went for 40,000 (yes, no typo) and an apartment for 335,000.

    I am no wiser as to the actual value of my house at all. Subjectivity is exactly what they are asking of us, in determining our own property value. How many K do I knock off my place for the rotten gable end wall, single glazed windows and no insulation compared to the neighbour's similar cottage that has insulation AND it's own drive?! However, my garden is 1/4 acre bigger.......hmmmm. :confused:
    Maybe now people will give local government as hard a time as they give RTE when they have to pay a license fee.

    Well now that'll be interesting alright. In my area a few years ago a bunch of councilors swanned off to someplace foreign to EXAMINE A BRIDGE. With their spouses. Can't wait to see what happens when the potholes aren't filled at all and the council start trying to blame non-payment of property tax. That's when the proverbial will hit the fan :D


  • #53
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Obliq wrote: »
    WHAT? This tax is not at all "fairly" based on things that are difficult to be subjective about. For example, the nearest description to my house is "bungalow" which conjures up a 50's block built one storey stand alone house on a road in rural Ireland (to me). However, I am in an extremely damp 3 bed, 1 bath one storey stone-built house with an attic conversion to 2 extra bedrooms that you can't stand up in, no insulation and access through a neighbour's yard.

    The valuation on the Revenue site was derived from the average taken on local properties including a bungalow with 3 bed that went for 40,000 (yes, no typo) and an apartment for 335,000.

    I am no wiser as to the actual value of my house at all. Subjectivity is exactly what they are asking of us, in determining our own property value. How many K do I knock off my place for the rotten gable end wall, single glazed windows and no insulation compared to the neighbour's similar cottage that has insulation AND it's own drive?! However, my garden is 1/4 acre bigger.......hmmmm. :confused:



    Well now that'll be interesting alright. In my area a few years ago a bunch of councilors swanned off to someplace foreign to EXAMINE A BRIDGE. With their spouses. Can't wait to see what happens when the potholes aren't filled at all and the council start trying to blame non-payment of property tax. That's when the proverbial will hit the fan :D

    Well, as has been stated earlier in this thread, the Property Tax is not ring fenced for local services . It's just another example of lies and chicanery practised by our politicians. They withdrew funding from local services and substituted the Household Charge, this in turn was to be replaced by the Property Tax, obviously there was never any intention to replace the funding, this tax is purely to repay the debts of gamblers. When are the people going to wake up? County Councils are just talking shops, they serve little purpose except maybe to procure planning permission, the real power lies with the County Manager, another unelected, overpaid bureaucrat.
    As regards the valuation of your house, another anomaly seems to be that while there are fines and penalties for undervaluing, it seems there is no provision for recovery of tax overpaid if there is any overvaluation


  • #54
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Ha! Yup, no surprises then. :rolleyes: ~Thanks for the update.


  • #55
    b318isp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭b318isp


    ...and the Government were quite happy to rake in Stamp Duty when house prices were highest. No sign of reducing that source of funds at the time.

    I've already handed over the equivalent of around 40 years of Property Tax to the state. I'm totally hacked off that I have already paid my dues 7 years ago for my property (over €30,000), and now I have to pay it again.


  • #56
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    Here is yet another reason I don't think the Property Tax, which may be needed, is being applied fairly - there is no equity applied.

    My parents bought their Local Authority home over 30 years ago, they have paid for every alteration need, from insultation to double glazing, they have lived in the same house for over 50 years.

    Their neighbours who did not choose to buy but instead opted to rent, have had their homes completely revamped. The house were completely rewired, replastered, new bathroom suites, new kitchen units (of their choosing), new floors, new windows, new internal and exteral doors, insulation, etc.

    Both my parents worked in low paid jobs, next door the male neighbour was my fathers supervisor. Neither my parents or the next door neighbours have a private pension; both receive a state con pension.

    My parents will now have to pay the property tax, the neighbours will not. My parents could badly do with new sanitary ware and rewiring - they can't afford it and although the wiring is in a shocking state and they applied for the older persons aid grant - they didn't get it.

    My siblings and I may have to pay inhertance tax, the neighbours very adult son has moved back home, he is now unemployed and his name has been added to the rent book - the house will be his in reality - he of course will not pay any tax on this - although he will benefit as by way of defacto the house is his.

    There are many people who, in all but name, own local authority homes. They have all the benefits of a secure home, which they can in reality pass on to their children; they don't have any of the responsibilities. This system is wrong :(


  • #57
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Property developers owe local authorities over €750m in levies

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0315/376861-property-developers-outstanding-levies/

    So we have the inept LA s that will be funded by the property tax and they cannot even collect what is owed. The once cozy relationships with the developers turned sour when the latter did not pay up. It makes the mind boggle how the finances of the LA work or not, and we are giving property tax revenue to this lot.:eek:


  • #58
    Villan11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 252 ✭✭Villan11


    Can anyone tell me if there is a published list of the "Ghost Estates" available yet. I believe my property falls into that category as it did for the Household charge. The information booklet says that there is details of this on revenue.ie. All I can find is that the Dept. of Environment have the list of unfinished estates but it does not appear to be on their site either.
    Why circulate estimates and forms to complete when the requisite information is not available???


  • #59
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Obliq wrote: »
    WHAT? This tax is not at all "fairly" based on things that are difficult to be subjective about. For example, the nearest description to my house is "bungalow" which conjures up a 50's block built one storey stand alone house on a road in rural Ireland (to me). However, I am in an extremely damp 3 bed, 1 bath one storey stone-built house with an attic conversion to 2 extra bedrooms that you can't stand up in, no insulation and access through a neighbour's yard.

    The valuation on the Revenue site was derived from the average taken on local properties including a bungalow with 3 bed that went for 40,000 (yes, no typo) and an apartment for 335,000.
    Where those prices from the same year?
    I am no wiser as to the actual value of my house at all. Subjectivity is exactly what they are asking of us, in determining our own property value. How many K do I knock off my place for the rotten gable end wall, single glazed windows and no insulation compared to the neighbour's similar cottage that has insulation AND it's own drive?! However, my garden is 1/4 acre bigger.......hmmmm. :confused:
    Yeah but would you be moaning if you were being penalised for making your house better. There are grants from the SEAI to sort out your insulation.

    And some of it is pretty cheap to do it you plan it properly.
    Well now that'll be interesting alright. In my area a few years ago a bunch of councilors swanned off to someplace foreign to EXAMINE A BRIDGE. With their spouses. Can't wait to see what happens when the potholes aren't filled at all and the council start trying to blame non-payment of property tax. That's when the proverbial will hit the fan :D
    The next to do will be to demand transparency into where the budget is going.


  • #60
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    sparkling sea wrote: »
    Here is yet another reason I don't think the Property Tax, which may be needed, is being applied fairly - there is no equity applied.

    My parents bought their Local Authority home over 30 years ago, they have paid for every alteration need, from insultation to double glazing, they have lived in the same house for over 50 years.

    Their neighbours who did not choose to buy but instead opted to rent, have had their homes completely revamped. The house were completely rewired, replastered, new bathroom suites, new kitchen units (of their choosing), new floors, new windows, new internal and exteral doors, insulation, etc.

    Both my parents worked in low paid jobs, next door the male neighbour was my fathers supervisor. Neither my parents or the next door neighbours have a private pension; both receive a state con pension.

    My parents will now have to pay the property tax, the neighbours will not. My parents could badly do with new sanitary ware and rewiring - they can't afford it and although the wiring is in a shocking state and they applied for the older persons aid grant - they didn't get it.

    My siblings and I may have to pay inhertance tax, the neighbours very adult son has moved back home, he is now unemployed and his name has been added to the rent book - the house will be his in reality - he of course will not pay any tax on this - although he will benefit as by way of defacto the house is his.

    There are many people who, in all but name, own local authority homes. They have all the benefits of a secure home, which they can in reality pass on to their children; they don't have any of the responsibilities. This system is wrong :(
    So you are p*ssed off because you parents didn't screw the system and your neighbours did?

    Sorry but's that a good argument. You parents got a local authority house - I never got that. Some local authority houses were bought very cheaply and were worth many multiples of what the people who bought paid for them.

    They can always defer payment and let your parents pass the debt over to revenue.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Where those prices from the same year?

    Yes.
    Yeah but would you be moaning if you were being penalised for making your house better. There are grants from the SEAI to sort out your insulation.

    And some of it is pretty cheap to do it you plan it properly    .

    I am not moaning, I am confused and showing you some of the issues about my difficulty in figuring out what my property is worth.
    And as for the bit in bold, do you condescend here often? I won't bore you with the details of dealing with the SEAI, but I know how to plan thank you.
    The next to do will be to demand transparency into where the budget is going.

    Correct.


Advertisement
Advertisement