Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

MadsL · 28-02-2013 07:32PM

Chris Martin wrote: »

I would definitely.
There's a difference though with this case,
This lad is 7/8 now,
It's understandable that other parents of the school don't want him in the bathroom with their daughters,
Not a parent but I'd object to it if I was.
The fact of the matter is still though that the child is too young to know whether or not he wants this...

No news report has mentioned any complaints by the other parents. Are you just projecting these objections?

Jimoslimos · 28-02-2013 07:32PM

G.K. wrote: »

And what if the child is trans? Forcing the child into the male box will only be detrimental. Letting the child live their life as they see it works out much better. If it's a phase, they will naturally grow out of it.

But not more detrimental to making a young child feel shame about the body he/she was born into? Being continually told that the genitals he/she were born with are somehow 'wrong'. That puberty will be especially hard because your body is producing the 'wrong' hormones.

It's the projection of those types of negative body image onto children that mess people up in later life, not being told to piss in the boys toilet because you have a penis.

Links234 wrote: »

What the school has done is illegal and against the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act, they are in the wrong and what they have done is against the law.

No, because as you pointed out here;

Links234 wrote: »

Do you know what? I ****ing dare you to walk a mile in my shoes and see how far you get. Go ahead and come out to everyone you know that you're trans and face the risk and uncertainty of rejection and disapproval or outright ostricization, or risk losing your job because of it. Then go ahead and start seeing a psychologist for a while so you can get a referal to an endocrinologist, try bluff your way through that. See the endocrinologists who have all their own questions to grill you with and make you see another psych before they even allow you to start treatment. Get your GP on board, so they'll administer your hormone blocking shots. But be careful, it's perfectly legal in this country for a health professional to refuse to treat you based on their religious convictions, it's happened to people I know! Then sit back as your body changes drastically from the hormone treatment.* Then go and navigate all the beaurocracy to get your name changed and the gender maker on your passport changed so that you now have ID for how you're currently presenting.

Now show the people in the Gym your new ID and you're all set to hang out in changing rooms for an hour. Then tell us, was it worth it?

there are an enormous amount of steps, psychological evaluation, etc that a person is required to undergo before being recognised as a different gender to that they were assigned at birth. Are you telling me a 4yo has went through all that, never-mind understand the implications? Not a chance. Therefore until the boy/girl is adult enough to make those decisions they remain as their biological gender.

Anyway, what facilities are lacking from the boys toilet that somehow infringe on human rights. Cubicles? Check. Toilet Paper? Check. Wash basin & dryer? Check

awec · 28-02-2013 07:33PM

Links234 wrote: »

The girl is 6, according to most news reports I've read.

And there's no difference, it's a clear-cut case of discrimination and it is against the law. Doesn't matter what some other parents might think, just it wouldn't matter if some parents didn't want their kids going to school with other races/faiths, it is illegal. What the school did was against the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act, it was illegal.

And also, she's not too young to know, that's not a fact that's your own personal conjecture. Many transgender people know from a very, very young age. This isn't something new! For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras

Many 6 year olds believe they are superheroes and princesses. Are they?

MadsL · 28-02-2013 07:34PM

awec wrote: »

What are you on about?

This thread isn't about racism, sexism or bigotry or prejudices experience by minority groups.

That's exactly what it is about. The parents brought complaint under anti-discrimination legislation.

MadsL · 28-02-2013 07:34PM

awec wrote: »

[/URL]

Many 6 year olds believe they are superheroes and princesses. Are they?

Do they have separate bathrooms?

--Kaiser-- · 28-02-2013 07:35PM

awec wrote: »

[/URL]

Many 6 year olds believe they are superheroes and princesses. Are they?

When I was six I'm pretty sure I thought I was a frog, now here's me walking around on two legs like a sucker!

TheChizler · 28-02-2013 07:35PM

awec wrote: »

What are you on about?

This thread isn't about racism, sexism or bigotry or prejudices experience by minority groups.

This is EXACTLY what the thread is about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_minority

Hilly Bill · 28-02-2013 07:36PM

Links234 wrote: »

The girl is 6, according to most news reports I've read.

And there's no difference, it's a clear-cut case of discrimination and it is against the law. Doesn't matter what some other parents might think, just it wouldn't matter if some parents didn't want their kids going to school with other races/faiths, it is illegal. What the school did was against the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act, it was illegal.

And also, she's not too young to know, that's not a fact that's your own personal conjecture. Many transgender people know from a very, very young age. This isn't something new! For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras

Its a boy, dressing your child up as a girl doesnt change the sex of that child no matter how feminine that child may be.

awec · 28-02-2013 07:37PM

MadsL wrote: »

That's exactly what it is about. The parents brought complaint under anti-discrimination legislation.

Why did you bring sexism, bigotry etc in to this? You are inventing straw man arguments.

The overall tone of this thread has been around whether a child that young can really be deemed to be transsexual and the merits of the parents making that decision for them.

Where do you draw the line here? Do you just decide that anyone can dander in to the girls bathroom if they want to?

Links234 · 28-02-2013 07:37PM

awec wrote: »

The 18 month thing is not a red herring ffs. It's the entire point of the thread.

We heard earlier that the child displayed female traits at 18 months. Nobody yet has told us what these so called female traits could be that would lead the parents to deduce that their child was presenting as female.

This is a child! A very young child. That is being forgotten here.

Watch the video and listen exactly to what the parents have said: http://kdvr.com/2013/02/26/6-year-old-transgendered-girl-fights-intolerance-parents-file-civil-rights-complaint/

TheChizler · 28-02-2013 07:38PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its a boy, dressing your child up as a girl doesnt change the sex of that child no matter how feminine that child may be.

But a psychologist could conclude that the gender (psychological) of the child was different to the sex (physical). And clothing wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with that.

Hilly Bill · 28-02-2013 07:39PM

awec wrote: »

Why did you bring sexism, bigotry etc in to this? You are inventing straw man arguments.

The overall tone of this thread has been around whether a child that young can really be deemed to be transsexual and the merits of the parents making that decision for them.

Where do you draw the line here? Do you just decide that anyone can dander in to the girls bathroom if they want to?

Only if you are scottish and wearing a kilt apparently .

Czarcasm · 28-02-2013 07:40PM

Links234 wrote: »

Honestly, this reads to me as more of an Irish "shure don't be rockin' the boat" conservative mentality and ire towards anyone who speaks up about an issue.

Did you actually read my full post at all? I have no problem with anyone who speaks up about an issue, and if they can demonstrate legitimacy I will give them a hearing. The mother in this case goes on some silly daytime talk show either to get validation for herself, or to air her grievance. Depending on your perspective, the choice is yours. It's not a very effective method if your intention is to air your grievances as most people will forget it five minutes later.

If you're only seeking validation for yourself though, it's pretty instant and casts a wider net than a more targeted approach where you would have an expert who would have enough influence to speak with authority on behalf of not just you but everybody affected by an issue. It's not too often you see the father's speaking out on these issues either.

I don't see any of what you're talking about in what the mother has said, and what I gather from it is that the girl's parents are doing what they can to ensure that their child gets by in life and speaking up for it.

Well you would say that, because it suits your world view, whether that's just you being obtuse or not on purpose is a question only you can answer, because I know only too well you're more than intelligent enough to understand where I'm coming from. We'll respectfully have to differ on the benefits of the mother's chosen methods of doing what is in the best interests of her child, but suffice to point out that she has four more that she has invalidated with her crusade for one, and even saying that much required me to leave my cynicism aside that she wasn't just doing this in a self interested way to be validated by the world. There are plenty of people who don't run to chat shows and other such nonsense when they are dealing with a child with a disorder, whether it be GID, autism, downs syndrome, etc.

Referring to the child as "it" Links? I would've thought you'd know better tbh, but if anything such a faux pas shows us, it's that none of us are perfect.

Anything else you claim I think is just you reading what you want into the situation.

Ehh, I could say the same right back at you Links tbh.

What nobody here has seemed to have touched on is what the school has done is completely illegal, and the parents have every right to make an issue of it. What the school did by denying her access to appropriate facilities is against the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act, which states that they must allow an individual access appropriate to their gender identity, rather than their assigned gender at birth. Regardless of what you think of the law, that's what the law says, and the school has broken the law. The parents have quite rightfully kicked up a stink.

Except that the school didn't break the law. The child was offered appropriate facilities in the nurses station. The child refused to use them. That doesn't automatically mean the school broke the law, it just means the child refused the appropriate facilities provided.

28-02-2013 07:40PM

This is a typical After Hours thread.
Story about 2 strange parents where literally nobody can defend their decisions which will harm the child over time.
Yet someone is always defending the silliest things until it descends into them just doing it for the sake of arguing.

G.K. · 28-02-2013 07:40PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its not up to the parents to decide if the child is transgender or not at such a young age but the child himself when he gets old enough to make that decision himself. At that point its the parents role to support him.
18 months????? You would be hard to find proof either way at that age.

You said the child wasn't trans. I asked you for proof. The child is now 6, not 18 months. Let's see the proof.

awec wrote: »

Many 6 year olds believe they are superheroes and princesses. Are they?

Gender identity is hard-wired into the brain. It ain't the same as those things.

Jimoslimos wrote: »

But not more detrimental to making a young child feel shame about the body he/she was born into? Being continually told that the genitals he/she were born with are somehow 'wrong'. That puberty will be especially hard because your body is producing the 'wrong' hormones.

It's the projection of those types of negative body image onto children that mess people up in later life, not being told to piss in the boys toilet because you have a penis.

Show me where the parents have done that and I'll condemn it. The tragic tale of David Reimer shows that telling a kid that they are the gender they are not and making them believe it had disastrous consequences. It should never happen. There's not one iota of evidence to say it did happen here though.

awec · 28-02-2013 07:42PM

I'm still waiting to hear what these supposed traits are that meant these parents were able to deduce at 18 months old their child was presenting as female.

Iwasfrozen · 28-02-2013 07:43PM

awec wrote: »

I'm still waiting to hear what these supposed traits are that meant these parents were able to deduce at 18 months old their child was presenting as female.

Giggity!

bodice ripper · 28-02-2013 07:43PM

G.K. wrote: »

You said the child wasn't trans. I asked you for proof. The child is now 6, not 18 months. Let's see the proof.

Gender identity is hard-wired into the brain. It ain't the same as those things.

em, proof?

I don't think there is definitive evidence of that. Same with homo/bisexuality.

Hilly Bill · 28-02-2013 07:44PM

TheChizler wrote: »

But a psychologist could conclude that the gender (psychological) of the child was different to the sex (physical). And clothing wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with that.

Its still up to the child to decide when he is old enough to make the decision in how he want to live his life as a boy or a girl. Not the parents or some doctors.

G.K. · 28-02-2013 07:46PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

em, proof?

I don't think there is definitive evidence of that. Same with homo/bisexuality.

The major mental health organisations all seem to think so, as they advocate transition for those with incongrous gender identities and bodies.

And the David Reimer case that I keep mentioning does demonstrate that gender identity isn't learned.

darced · 28-02-2013 07:46PM

This post has been deleted.

Hilly Bill · 28-02-2013 07:47PM

G.K. wrote: »

You said the child wasn't trans. I asked you for proof. The child is now 6, not 18 months. Let's see the proof.

Gender identity is hard-wired into the brain. It ain't the same as those things.

Show me where the parents have done that and I'll condemn it. The tragic tale of David Reimer shows that telling a kid that they are the gender they are not and making them believe it had disastrous consequences. It should never happen. There's not one iota of evidence to say it did happen here though.

Ye 6 and still a boy , what more proof do you want? Being camp doesnt make you transgender.

TheChizler · 28-02-2013 07:48PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its still up to the child to decide when he is old enough to make the decision in how he want to live his life as a boy or a girl. Not the parents or some doctors.

I'm assuming you didn't read the second article, the child was refusing to leave the house without clothing that would identify her as a girl. The parents resisted this until she asked to be brought to a doctor to be fixed.

Ush1 · 28-02-2013 07:48PM

Links234 wrote: »

You make no sense. There's no such thing as being "legally transgender"

if you want to be legally recognised as female, in so much as you can be in this country, yes you will have to go through a hell of a lot of beaurocracy, scrutiny and be expected to jump through a lot of hoops.

If you honestly wanted to join a gym as a woman, you'd need legal identification and more than likely a letter from your psychologist. to get that ID you'd need to go through everything I've highlighted, and it's not easy. Getting my new passport was one of the most complicated things I've done and had to prove a lot to them before it was issued.

Legally transgender as in legally recognised as not the sex of your birth, it's not that complicated.

So you have to get hormone therapy despite the fact you are perfectly happy with how you look?

Czarcasm · 28-02-2013 07:48PM

MadsL wrote: »

Wow, discrimination is wrong, but hey look at those Americans huh?

You should read your own posts.

"The American Dream" is a widely understood idealism, it's not xenophobia to attack an idealism. orestes was not criticising the country or the culture, they were criticising the idealism.

Less twist, easier get the gist.

MadsL · 28-02-2013 07:49PM

awec wrote: »

Why did you bring sexism, bigotry etc in to this? You are inventing straw man arguments.

No I am not. They are part of the same issue of equal treatment and contained in the legislation that the family is making a complaint under.

The overall tone of this thread has been around whether a child that young can really be deemed to be transsexual and the merits of the parents making that decision for them.

And the issue seems to revolve around the misapprehension that the parents have done something irreversible when in fact all they have done is let their child choose what clothes to wear and which sexes bathroom they identify with. No-one has been forced to do anything here, except the school forcing Coy to use a seperate bathroom from the one Coy identifies with. If that changes in time, no harm. If it doesn't then their actions are very much vindicated.

Where do you draw the line here? Do you just decide that anyone can dander in to the girls bathroom if they want to?

God, will the world end if a 'boy' sits to pee in the 'girls' bathroom?

The Victorians dressed all children as girls until age seven. Perhaps that might solve some of your bathroom anxieties.

El Guapo! · 28-02-2013 07:49PM

I don't care what anybody says, those people are not fit to be parents and that poor child should be taken away from them.
How anybody in their right mind can think this is ok is beyond me. If you think this is ok then you're as bad as those "parents" and need your head examined.

G.K. · 28-02-2013 07:50PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ye 6 and still a boy , what more proof do you want? Being camp doesnt make you transgender.

I'm not following what you are saying here?

awec · 28-02-2013 07:50PM

MadsL wrote: »

No I am not. They are part of the same issue of equal treatment and contained in the legislation that the family is making a complaint under.

And the issue seems to revolve around the misapprehension that the parents have done something irreversible when in fact all they have done is let their child choose what clothes to wear and which sexes bathroom they identify with. No-one has been forced to do anything here, except the school forcing Coy to use a seperate bathroom from the one Coy identifies with. If that changes in time, no harm. If it doesn't then their actions are very much vindicated.

Where do you draw the line here? Do you just decide that anyone can dander in to the girls bathroom if they want to?

[/QUOTE]

Children are impressionable. To suggest that this is nothing more than letting the child wear whatever clothes they want etc is foolish. In fact, I'd argue that it's a deliberate misrepresentation of the situation.

If a parent gives the child the idea that they might be the opposite sex then of course they are going to pick up on that. That's what kids do.

bodice ripper · 28-02-2013 07:51PM

G.K. wrote: »

The major mental health organisations all seem to think so, as they advocate transition for those with incongrous gender identities and bodies.

And the David Reimer case that I keep mentioning does demonstrate that gender identity isn't learned.

that isn't proof of "hardwired into the brain". If it were possible to demonstrate that it was in this case, then there wouldn't be a debate.

*edit, also even if there were, it wouldn't be the right thing to make a media spectacle out of the kid.

Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

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