Can't afford a night out? You're poor!

gallag · 14-02-2013 06:05PM

God I hate poor people, the tramps are so depressing, just try harder to make money and stop crying about how much meat you can eat. I assume my taxes are still funding work houses where even the poorest rapscallion can have a meal? Then I am doing my part for the lazy and unwashed.

Duggys Housemate · 14-02-2013 06:06PM

orestes wrote: »

Doesn't matter a hell if someone is entitled to go for a pint or not, if they can afford to, they ain't living in poverty. Poverty isn't not being able to go out for a drink or not being able to afford a roast dinner, it's having your dinner donated by St Vincent de Paul and eating it in the cold cos you can't afford to turn on the heating.

Or thats a worse form of poverty compared to people who can't go out for a drink. But both are poor.

The thing is if we decide that poverty is only extreme poverty in Ireland, then why not compare Ireland to worldwide?

In which case the argument becomes:

Poverty is not somebody with a roof over his head, with adequate sanitation, a fridge and a TV; but someone in a hut in Africa with none of this ( or a temporary roof if any).

Poverty isn't just extreme poverty. If you can't go out once a week, you are poor.

Amalgam · 14-02-2013 06:07PM

mike65 wrote: »

The definitions of poverty become more "wussie" by the year. Soon not being able to afford a 12 pack of Dutch Gold will be proof of penury.

..and charities cultivate it, I remember seeing a grown man whingeing about not being able to afford a Sony PS3, when himself, partner and 3 kids were living in 1 bedroom with their belongings in a clutch of bin liners.

There's other thing to prioritise, other than a PS3, when you're in that situation.

Duggys Housemate · 14-02-2013 06:08PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Only in Ireland would NOT going to a bar be seen as a bad thing.

It could a bar, or a restaurant, or any outing you have to pay for. A movie. People are concentrating on the bar. But thats not what the report mentioned, exclusively.

Duggys Housemate · 14-02-2013 06:09PM

Amalgam wrote: »

..and charities cultivate it, I remember seeing a grown man whingeing about not being able to afford a Sony PS3, when himself, partner and 3 kids were living in 1 bedroom with their belongings in a clutch of bin liners.

There's other thing to prioritise, other than a PS3, when you're in that situation.

Was he poor?

Duggys Housemate · 14-02-2013 06:11PM

And the report said:

unable to afford at least two items generally considered necessary, including a warm winter coat, a night out, a roast once a week or home heating.

Two of those. You could sacrifice heating for a beer, if hardy. Or the coat for a few meals out. But two of those.

The focus on the drinks is silly.

enda1 · 14-02-2013 06:12PM

Geuze wrote: »

This definition is in widespread use by statisticians and economists across the EU.

It is possible to have a low no. of people between 60% of the median and the median disp income.

See here:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-12-009/EN/KS-SF-12-009-EN.PDF

It's 9% of the pop in CZ, that seems to be the lowest.

The Dutch are at 10% of the pop.

In your report, it says its related to disposable income, not income.
Oh and by the way that's the "at risk of poverty" line, not actual poverty.

srsly78 · 14-02-2013 06:13PM

Amalgam wrote: »

..and charities cultivate it, I remember seeing a grown man whingeing about not being able to afford a Sony PS3, when himself, partner and 3 kids were living in 1 bedroom with their belongings in a clutch of bin liners.

There's other thing to prioritise, other than a PS3, when you're in that situation.

Completely agree. Does the guy not realise the next generation of consoles will be out soon? Save that money for PS4!

Freddy Smelly · 14-02-2013 06:27PM

TGi666 wrote: »

whats the price of a pint these days?
€4.50? that's 2 pints for €9
or stay at home €10 for a 6pack of your choice
I know what I'd be choosing anyway

15 euros for 20 bottles of beer in tesco

twinQuins · 14-02-2013 06:39PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

It could a bar, or a restaurant, or any outing you have to pay for. A movie. People are concentrating on the bar. But thats not what the report mentioned, exclusively.

But that still misses the point that you can socialise without spending money.

Geuze · 14-02-2013 06:47PM

enda1 wrote: »

In your report, it says its related to disposable income, not income.
Oh and by the way that's the "at risk of poverty" line, not actual poverty.

Yes, disp income is the measure of income used in determining the numbers of people AROP, "at-risk-of-poverty".

Yes, Eurostat and the CSO are careful to describe low income people as being at risk of poverty.

Duggys Housemate · 14-02-2013 08:31PM

twinQuins wrote: »

But that still misses the point that you can socialise without spending money.

Everybody is missing the point that if you have to socialise without spending money you are poor.

It's bollocks anyway. Apparently people here are happy with ( and their landlord is happy with) a night of tap water and a cordial in an Irish pub. I've never seen that. Maybe people who go out to restaurants can order tap water while their friends eat, or stay in the car while their friends watch The Hobbit, or peer through the window while their friends play bowling. There are free activities but the poor are excluded from the paid activities which is what most people do.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 14-02-2013 08:59PM

The whole thing is a bit all over the place. Levelling the playing field so everyone has the same wants fulfilled would be disastrous too.

I know a very nice guy who is about 48 and unemployed for the last few years. Thing is he has no intention of finding work and considered himself effectively retired. If he had the same lifestyle as everyone working no one would bother working. I'd chill out and play my xbox all day.

So everyone's basic needs should be fulfilled but not their wants, at least not automatically by the state. Otherwise no one would work and the state would collapse completely.

enda1 · 14-02-2013 09:36PM

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, disp income is the measure of income used in determining the numbers of people AROP, "at-risk-of-poverty".

Yes, Eurostat and the CSO are careful to describe low income people as being at risk of poverty.

Good.
So you're wrong then. Thanks for clarifying that.

Geuze · 14-02-2013 10:19PM

There seems to be some confusion.

There is no dispute.

I confirmed what you said, and vice versa.

When the media discuss poverty in Ireland, they are usually discussing what's known as relative income poverty, where people have low incomes relative to other incomes. This is also known as being at-risk-of-poverty, AROP.

The definition used is equivalised disp income compared to median equivalised disp income.

Typically, the line / benchmark / threshold is set at 60% of the median disposable income.

For 2011 in Ireland, here is the data

Average household disposable income = 41,819
Average equivalised disp income = 21,440

60% benchmark = 10,889

If your disp income per person in the household is below 10,889, then you are classified as AROP.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 14-02-2013 10:19PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

If you can't go out once a week, you are poor.

Ok, so lets agree that is a person that is poor.
Is the state going to give them money so that they can go out one night a week (to a bar, cinema, restaurant, or other paid entertainment)?

If the state provides housing, dole money, allowances, child benefit....etc, surely at some point the handouts have to stop.

It's be great to live in the utopia where there is ample money to go around and we can all have the state provide for us, but this is a broke country that is borrowing to pay for it's current expenses; we can't afford more.

FearDark · 14-02-2013 10:21PM

TGi666 wrote: »

whats the price of a pint these days?
€4.50? that's 2 pints for €9
or stay at home €10 for a 6pack of your choice
I know what I'd be choosing anyway

You sound like a barrel of laughs.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 14-02-2013 10:28PM

Geuze wrote: »

If your disp income per person in the household is below 10,889, then you are classified as AROP.

Wow, when you consider that Bertie has a €150,000 a year pension, things are screwed up. Don't know how there hasn't been more actions like the guy that drove the truck into the Dail gates.

Mr_Spaceman · 15-02-2013 12:00AM

What puzzles me is that - even in these supposedly tough times - you have people who appear to be living on the bones of their arse who are never out of the fecking boozer. I'm sure we all know them.

At an average of £4 in the UK and around €4.50 in Ireland for a pint, it's a feat I haven't managed to accomplish myself, sadly.

15-02-2013 12:16AM

FearDark wrote: »

You sound like a barrel of laughs.

Yeah, cos spending money for the sake of it is soooooo much fun.

Perhaps it's just me, but I always enjoy myself ten times more at a house party or at my own place with a few friends than sitting in some overpriced pub with crap food, filthy toilets and 6 euro pints.

UCDVet · 15-02-2013 01:00AM

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

What puzzles me is that - even in these supposedly tough times - you have people who appear to be living on the bones of their arse who are never out of the fecking boozer. I'm sure we all know them.

At an average of £4 in the UK and around €4.50 in Ireland for a pint, it's a feat I haven't managed to accomplish myself, sadly.

It's all about priorities...

I was approached by a man asking me to 'spare some change for the homeless' earlier this week. He was wearing nicer shoes than me.

I'm not sure what that says about me or about him....but he's the kinda guy that must really care about his shoes....or I'm the kind of guy who doesn't.

Seachmall · 15-02-2013 01:08AM

FearDark wrote: »

You sound like a barrel of laughs.

You make that sound like having a few cans with mates is less fun than a pub...

leanonme · 15-02-2013 01:11AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

wrong on all counts supersonic.
the more life you live, the more experience you have. Thats all.

Some of the posts on here sounds like they come from 18 - 25 year olds who don't know they're born yet.

Im in he age bracket you are talking about and I would say that I have probly experienced more in my life than mos people twice my age, so please dont make sweeping statements that young people dont know bout life etc etc.

clairefontaine · 15-02-2013 01:19AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't consider myself as being poor. Someone who is poor struggles, I don't. With proper money management and limiting luxury items, it is easy to survive on €20-€30 per week.

Not if you had kids to feed, clothe, heat, and do school runs four times a day. Or if you didn't live anywhere near a lidl or aldi.

One size does not fit all.

tommy2bad · 15-02-2013 01:29AM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Ok, so lets agree that is a person that is poor.
Is the state going to give them money so that they can go out one night a week (to a bar, cinema, restaurant, or other paid entertainment)?

If the state provides housing, dole money, allowances, child benefit....etc, surely at some point the handouts have to stop.

It's be great to live in the utopia where there is ample money to go around and we can all have the state provide for us, but this is a broke country that is borrowing to pay for it's current expenses; we can't afford more.

Well kinda yeah! Your assumption that it has to be with handouts, i.e. dole is where you go wrong. Relative poverty is a measure of how well the population is doing financially, when it high, things are not working to the benefit of all when it's low things are being manged better by the state.
Simples.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 15-02-2013 10:49AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Well kinda yeah! Your assumption that it has to be with handouts, i.e. dole is where you go wrong. Relative poverty is a measure of how well the population is doing financially, when it high, things are not working to the benefit of all when it's low things are being manged better by the state.
Simples.

I don't understand what you are saying

tommy2bad · 15-02-2013 10:54AM

Aiyana Microscopic Sergeant wrote: »

I don't understand what you are saying

Read it again, it's not that obscure.

15-02-2013 11:04AM

Camilo Echoing Traction wrote: »

Yeah, cos spending money for the sake of it is soooooo much fun.

Perhaps it's just me, but I always enjoy myself ten times more at a house party or at my own place with a few friends than sitting in some overpriced pub with crap food, filthy toilets and 6 euro pints.

Personally I love the pub, a house party is fine every now and then but they will never get close to being as good as the pub. You don't have the same atmosphere, usually cant turn up the music too loud because of neighbors, don't have the same choice of drinks, don't have beer on tap, can't change to another place, more difficult to get a group together due to people having to go to more effort to get to a house etc etc.

Id reckon the pub for 9 nights out of 10 and a house for the other one with maybe a few in the house before hitting the pub a couple of times too.

Yes its more expensive and it eats up a nice bit of my wages but it's great fun.

reprazant · 15-02-2013 11:07AM

I was going to say that he really needs to sort out where he goes for a pint if he chooses to go to pubs with crap food, filthy toilets and 6 euro pints.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 15-02-2013 11:09AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Your assumption that it has to be with handouts

What other way is there? Someone has to pay for it?

tommy2bad wrote: »

i.e. dole is where you go wrong

I don't know what that means.

tommy2bad wrote: »

Relative poverty is a measure of how well the population is doing financially, when it high,

I don't think that's what relative poverty means, it's been defined differently by previous posters.
"when it high", eh?

tommy2bad wrote: »

things are not working to the benefit of all when it's low things are being manged better by the state.

Do you mean that things are not great for everyone when the state is in a poor position?

tommy2bad wrote: »

when it's low things are being manged better by the state.

Again, I really don't know what you are saying. Doesn't matter how many times I read it as it is obscure.

Can't afford a night out? You're poor!

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