The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

Bannasidhe · 13-02-2013 01:28PM

philologos wrote: »

In practice I don't believe that reading Scripture is a subjective / postmodern exercise.

You keep saying this, but frankly as a statement it is open to many interpretations so would you please state what exactly you mean by postmodern?

aloyisious · 13-02-2013 01:43PM

On a different tack to the gay marriage debate: that in the UK. A "Coalition for Marriage" representative speaking to a House of Commons committee about the legalization of gay marriage in the UK, talked about how it would result in a lack of teachers there, as people would be afraid to take up teaching jobs, because they could be sacked for opposing gay marriage. It struck me as being slightly tongue in cheek, if not directly hypocritical, given that teachers were being sacked because they are/were gay, or supported gay marriage, leading to a loss of teachers.

Whilst giving evidence to the The Public Bill Committee of the House of Commons around the equal marriage bill, the Coalition for Marriage blamed potential marriage equality for a shortage of teachers.

Dr Sharon James suggested that teachers would face the sack for voicing their opposition to equal marriage, and said that she knew of many people who were “scared” to go into teaching because of that.

She went on to say that many experienced teachers had said they would retire early, for fear of getting into trouble for voicing anti-equal marriage opinions. She said it was “unfair to deprive” the UK of good teachers because of that.

The anti-gay campaigner went on to compare equal marriage with increased police checks for charity volunteers working with vulnerable people, suggesting that more people were being put off by marriage becoming legal.

Siobhain McDonagh, MP for Mitcham and Morden, who voted in favour of equal marriage, then drew a comparison between what Dr James said, and claims from her own constituents that shovelling snow from their driveways would cause them to be sued if someone slipped over on the snow.

She said that, just because people make such claims, it didn’t make them legally correct, and dismissed the idea that teachers would be sacked as “nonsense”.

Referring to teachers who are currently anti-abortion, she said that, as long as personal views were voiced in a “resonable” manner, it was acceptable for teachers to hold them.

Stephen Gilbert said he wanted to “lift the veil” on whether or not the Coalition for Marriage primarily wanted to protect “traditional” marriage, or was opposed to equal marriage.

Dr James said, referring to “man-woman marriage”, that she was opposed to the idea of same-sex couples getting married.

Despite saying: “None of us want discrimination”, Dr James went on to say that there was no way she thought marriage “can or should or will be between a same sex couple”.

Claiming the need for a referendum, Dr James said that there were people “on both sides of the argument” who wanted one.

totus tuus · 13-02-2013 04:56PM

Morbert wrote: »

As an aside, the Vile Institute is at it again.

http://trinitynews.ie/university-times-threatened-with-legal-action-over-iona-institute-articles/

Thought you might like to know that they have apologised to Mr.Quinn for their defamation remarks!

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=2772

Morbert · 13-02-2013 06:43PM

totus tuus wrote: »

Thought you might like to know that they have apologised to Mr.Quinn for their defamation remarks!

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=2772

The more quickly that institute fades out of existence, the better.

Zombrex · 13-02-2013 07:00PM

Any Christian that claims that the authors of the gospels or Paul did not mean to impart the information that the second coming of Jesus would occur within the life time of those reading their works is not partaking in honest critical analysis of the New Testament.

Which makes them hypocrits if they then criticism Christian supporters of gay relationships for not honestly following what authors such as Paul meant by their passages on homosexuality.

It is really that simple. Arguing the same points over and over with people who are prepared to have this level of cognitive dissidence seems rather pointless

lazygal · 13-02-2013 07:26PM

totus tuus wrote: »

Thought you might like to know that they have apologised to Mr.Quinn for their defamation remarks!

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=2772

What charitable works does that charity perform?

Bannasidhe · 13-02-2013 10:51PM

Wise words from a wise man.

Personally, I would say that expecting someone who is homosexual to remain celibate is to punish them, but that is just my interpretation.

Silvio.Dante · 13-02-2013 10:57PM

totus tuus wrote: »

Thought you might like to know that they have apologised to Mr.Quinn for their defamation remarks!

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=2772

Proper order too...:)

Silvio.Dante · 13-02-2013 10:59PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Wise words from a wise man.

Personally, I would say that expecting someone who is homosexual to remain celibate is to punish them, but that is just my interpretation.

Newsflash! An Anglican Bishop conforms to the latest trendy, Liberal campaign...:rolleyes:

Bannasidhe · 13-02-2013 11:01PM

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Newsflash! An Anglican Bishop conforms to the latest trendy, Liberal campaign...:rolleyes:

Nice little sectarian comment there Silvio. I don't think there is any need for that.

Delirium · 13-02-2013 11:01PM

totus tuus wrote: »

Thought you might like to know that they have apologised to Mr.Quinn for their defamation remarks!

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=2772

Strangely, Mr.Quinn is somewhat reticent to apologise to twitter users he misrepresented with his "river of bile" blog post. Even though the twitter user who generated the list for Mr.Quinn has already done so.

Zombrex · 13-02-2013 11:02PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Wise words from a wise man.

Personally, I would say that expecting someone who is homosexual to remain celibate is to punish them, but that is just my interpretation.

Predictable response, God doesn't punish people for being gay, he punishes them for carrying out homosexual acts.

And frankly if Bishop Tutu doesn't think God punishes people for doing sex "wrong" he needs to read his Bible more.

Silvio.Dante · 13-02-2013 11:09PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nice little sectarian comment there Silvio. I don't think there is any need for that.

Oh we have plenty of folk in the Catholic Church who will do the very same...:(

tommy2bad · 13-02-2013 11:24PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Predictable response, God doesn't punish people for being gay, he punishes them for carrying out homosexual acts.

And frankly if Bishop Tutu doesn't think God punishes people for doing sex "wrong" he needs to read his Bible more.

Or iynsho more literaly, :rolleyes:

philologos · 13-02-2013 11:28PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

I'll walk with you a bit!
Good reply btw.
I never said or implied that God would give up only that Christianity was loosing ground in most of the western world, shorthand for the developed west and not entirely accurate as America bucks the trend a bit. But my point remains as far as participating members are an indication, the mainstream churches are dying. Culturally the Christian faith may be what informed and inspired the secular culture we live in but that culture is oblivious to it's Christian roots.
That was 1.^

The question is which churches are growing. Here's some interesting articles:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/gods-bankers-how-evangelical-christianity-is-taking-a-hold-of-the-city-of-londonrsquos-financial-institutions-2270393.html
http://www.economist.com/node/21549943
http://www.whychurch.org.uk/myths.php

tommy2bad wrote: »

2)
Might be worth drilling those numbers, I have a suspicion that they will show growth in the Evangelical end and that it dosn't translate to lifelong commitment. I could be wrong.

It's hard to know for sure if ones commitment to Christ is life lasting, I agree. However, this doesn't change the fact that it is having an influence in terms of causing people to consider Jesus as a real option.

tommy2bad wrote: »

3)
What I mean is the idea that we declare X a sin because of the whole context of the scripture not a single pronouncement.

I don't declare anything a sin, God does in His word. My perspective on this issue isn't fuelled by a single passage, but the entire basis of Scripture on this issue.

tommy2bad wrote: »

4)
Again you misunderstand, I think we may be talking across each other here. I'm not saying ignore scripture but the opposite.

Explain how?

tommy2bad wrote: »

5)
I was just playing with your compromising the bible bit. What Gods message is is more important than any single piece of scripture.

What if God's message is the same thing as Scripture, or indeed if God's message is found in Scripture? Then separating them is a bit absurd?

Where is God's message found other than in Scripture?

tommy2bad wrote: »

And the conservative remark was aimed at me not you.
The idea that Gods word is unchanging through all time and we haven't changed a bit of it is nonsense, I doubt that any Christian from 500 years ago would recognizing what we call Christianity now.

I think Peter would disagree with you, and indeed the prophet Isaiah whom he is quoting would also (Isaiah 40:6-8):

1 Peter 1:22-25 ESV wrote:

Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for
“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
but the word of the Lord remains forever.”
And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

Clearly Peter held that the words of Isaiah even though they were written 600 years before were as relevant to his age as they are to ours.

However, I think you raise an interesting point. I think the best test of ones faith is if it resonates in Scripture firstly, but looking back to Christians from hundreds of years ago is a fruitful exercise. If God hasn't changed, then His word hasn't either, and we should expect to see commonalities between our world and theirs. Indeed often I gain far more from reading older books about Christianity from previous Christians than contemporary ones. For example, John Bunyan's The Pilgrims Progress is absolutely excellent precisely because it was written with consideration of Scripture. He was around in the 17th century. I can still see lots of similarity in Bunyan, but also I can learn a heck of a lot from him and his experience before me.

What we call Christianity should be the same as it was at the time of Jesus. If it isn't we have a lot of work to do to establish what Biblical Christianity is to begin with.

lazygal wrote: »

I agree. How many critical analyses of the bible have you read?

If I define textual criticism:
"The process of attempting to ascertain the original wording of a text."

The answer is every time I read and study the Bible, every time I hear it preached on (particularly by means of expository preaching), every time I study it with others I am doing textual criticism. Indeed on Tuesday night I spent a few hours studying Romans with my small group at church. In the last 6 years since I put my trust in Jesus, I've spent hours upon hours in textual criticism of the Bible.

I've also read critiques of the Bible (which is different to textual criticism insofar as it isn't attempting to ascertain the original wording of a text in most senses) from atheistic, Islamic and from other perspectives.

It might be useful to point out that there are differences between exegesis (extracting meaning from the text) and eisegesis (introducing ones presuppositions, agendas and biases into the text). The latter should be vigorously opposed.

I think in respect to this debate, the compromising view depends on eisegesis rather than exegesis. That'd be an interesting discussion though.

aloyisious · 15-02-2013 10:22AM

On today's online PinkNews edition:

County Kerry councillors are to be asked to back a motion supporting equal marriage, at its next meeting.

The motion was tabled by Labour Councillor, Gillian Wharton-Slattery, after she was approached by members of the gay community, asking why the motion had not been passed yet.

“They talked to me about how other councils had tabled and passed similar motions… And they asked why it hadn’t been done here too”, she told the Journal.

Ms Wharton-Slattery is dearful that councillors will break from the party line, despite support from the majority of political parties.

“It is an individual choice at the end of the day. I haven’t lobbied fellow councillors as I will let the democratic process exist in the chamber. People will make up their own minds. I have a sneaky feeling it could be in trouble getting through.”

She did say, however that she would remain “cautiously hopeful” that it would pass.

“I would be delighted for the 5.5 per cent of the population of Kerry that are gay for the motion to go through. We will have marriage equality eventually in this country. It would be nice to see what different councillors have to say on the matter.”

The vote is to be taken on Monday afternoon.

One councillor, Danny Healy-Rae, told the Irish Examiner that he would vote against the motion on Monday, because he had “serious concerns” about gay couples adoption children.

“I’m not against gay people, or anything like that. That’s their business, but I would be very worried in regard to adoption. If adoption was out of it, it would be a different story altogether,’’ he said.

Peregrinus · 15-02-2013 10:28AM

I'm fascinated to learn that 5.5% of the population of Kerry are gay. Does anyone know the source for this statistic, and are similar statistics available for other counties, so we can identifiy Ireland's pinkest place?

philologos · 15-02-2013 10:33AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm fascinated to learn that 5.5% of the population of Kerry are gay. Does anyone know the source for this statistic, and are similar statistics available for other counties, so we can identifiy Ireland's pinkest place?

I'm highly highly skeptical of such figures, particularly previous ones which have presumed automatically that 10% are. Quantifying exactly what figure is always going to be difficult even if polled.

Zombrex · 15-02-2013 03:40PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm fascinated to learn that 5.5% of the population of Kerry are gay. Does anyone know the source for this statistic, and are similar statistics available for other counties, so we can identifiy Ireland's pinkest place?

What makes you think it is Ireland's pinkest place?

Geomy · 15-02-2013 05:46PM

Zombrex wrote: »

What makes you think it is Ireland's pinkest place?

You should see the Rose gardens in Tralee you can find a lot of pink there.

The Rhododendron ponticum in bloom can be a nice shade of pink also

Peregrinus · 15-02-2013 06:29PM

Zombrex wrote: »

What makes you think it is Ireland's pinkest place?

I don't. We've been given a (suspiciously precise) figure for Kerry, but nowhere else. Without figures for everywhere, how are we to know?

Bannasidhe · 15-02-2013 08:05PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't. We've been given a (suspiciously precise) figure for Kerry, but nowhere else. Without figures for everywhere, how are we to know?

I'm not sure why the amount of people who are Gay in Ireland matters.

Lack of equality is lack of equality whether it affects 1, 100, 1000 or 1,000,000...

Geomy · 15-02-2013 08:11PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm not sure why the amount of people who are Gay in Ireland matters.

Lack of equality is lack of equality whether it affects 1, 100, 1000 or 1,000,000...

I'd say there's a lot of liars too :S

Into the west....

There's a bit of Gay in everyone Tayto

Benny_Cake · 15-02-2013 08:13PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm not sure why the amount of people who are Gay in Ireland matters.

Lack of equality is lack of equality whether it affects 1, 100, 1000 or 1,000,000...

I'd agree, and I don't that Peregrinus was arguing otherwise. You'd wonder where the councillor got that statistic from though - it's a difficult matter to quantify!

Bannasidhe · 15-02-2013 08:37PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'd agree, and I don't that Peregrinus was arguing otherwise. You'd wonder where the councillor got that statistic from though - it's a difficult matter to quantify!

Not saying he was, I am just wondering why people are quibbling about numbers as if it had the slightest importance to the actual issue.

lazygal · 15-02-2013 09:18PM

Why is homosexuality such a big deal to Christians? Do they get as passionate about poverty, or other social issues, or is marriage for gay couples the top concern?

Wowreally? · 15-02-2013 09:22PM

lazygal wrote: »

Why is homosexuality such a big deal to Christians? Do they get as passionate about poverty, or other social issues, or is marriage for gay couples the top concern?

My friend,

Jesus loves you for who you are. Don't let anyone tell you any different. (
Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.)

So in conclusion, Jesus will love you as you love him.
Jesus doesnt care if you are gay or not.

Benny_Cake · 15-02-2013 09:31PM

lazygal wrote: »

Why is homosexuality such a big deal to Christians? Do they get as passionate about poverty, or other social issues, or is marriage for gay couples the top concern?

Well, there are roughly 2 billion Christians, and for the majority I would say it's pretty low down the list.

lazygal · 15-02-2013 09:31PM

Wowreally? wrote: »

My friend,

Jesus loves you for who you are. Don't let anyone tell you any different. (
Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.)

So in conclusion, Jesus will love you as you love him.
Jesus doesnt care if you are gay or not.

Does he care if gay people get married?

Wowreally? · 15-02-2013 10:23PM

lazygal wrote: »

Does he care if gay people get married?

Theres nothing "anti gay marriage" in the bible.

Hebrews 13:4-7

Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." So we say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?" Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

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