actuator issue

shane0007 · 10-02-2013 10:25PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

OK, let's try and put some sanity on to this thread.

The theory of MV's is that when heat is required in a circuit, which might be radiators, or hot water, the device controlling the circuit changes state, which puts power on to the actuator of the MV, so the valve opens.

All the MV's I have here are motor open, and then spring close, so the motor holds the valve open while the zone is calling for heat. When the zone requirement is satisfied, the sensor or time switch on the zone opens, the power is removed, and the spring closes the valve. This needs 2 wires. There may be 2 or 3 other wires (excluding an earth) in the MV, and these may be used to provide a switching circuit that is used to (for example) provide power to the boiler and the pump, or pumps, depending on the circuit, so that the boiler etc only operate when there is a demand for heat, regardless of the state of the boiler thermostat, which is a good energy saving issue, there's no point firing the boiler if there's nowhere for the heat to go.

MV's can fail for several reasons. They can leak, due to wear on the O rings on the stem seal, which is common, and in some cases, the O rings can be replaced without too much trouble. They can stick, in almost any position, due to scale in the body of the valve, which can cause the circuit to operate when the controlling device is not calling for heat, and the last form of failure can be that the actuator fails electrically or mechanically, either through the wiring (usually the motor) or the gears, or the return spring can break.

The actuator is designed to hold open by the motor being stalled and held against the return spring. That is normal, and not incorrect use of the motor. If it's been set up in a way that is not controlled by a thermostat or time clock, then that's a bad design, but not as such a reason for failure. I've had MV's on my system here for over 23 years, and in that time, I've replaced some heads, and some valve bodies because of failures, but given how much they do, I'm not complaining.

If they are in a difficult place to replace, and they can be, it is usually worth considering putting a gate valve or a maintenance valve either side of them so that they can be removed for maintenance or repair without draining the whole system. Not often done, because too many builders/plumbers are cheap skates when it comes to this type of thing. If you have to drain the system to repair a MV, then its probably a good investment to put appropriate maintenance valves in while the system is drained, in the same way as it's worth considering putting maintenance valves in on radiators at the same time, for the sake of a few euro per radiator, the ability to take one off the wall for decoration without having to drain the radiator is a huge advantage, and it's much easier to deal with 2 eggcups of water than to have to deal with a radiator full. Thia is not often recommended, it costs a little more initially, but in the long term, saves the home owner when decorating or maintenance is needed. It also reduces the work required to do that maintenance.

The comments above about MVs burning out because they are open for long periods made earlier are to be honest total B$, the spring return types ARE designed to be power on when open.

Honeywell & Myson are both reputable manufacturers, and some of their heads are indeed exchangeable, as are some other makes.

Hope that makes some sense, and puts some clarity on some of the confusion that was being spread earlier

What a load of waffle!
Maintenance valves on radiators so radiator can be taken off the wall! What do you think radiator valves do?
Maintenance valve on motorised valves, again WOT, where do you stop? There would be maintenance valves everywhere. How
Many gate type valve let by? They do not seal.
It's hard enough pricing jobs but now you would prefer a maintenance valve at every joint! But then we are all cheap skates for this!

Motorised valves wired via a switch have motor powered permanently. The motor has a coil which heats. They are located in a hot press normally covered in clothing & surrounded by hot pipes. They over time burn out due to overheat contributed by continuous power & lack of ventilation to dissipate the heat from them.

10-02-2013 11:55PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

OK, let's try and put some sanity on to this thread.

Hope that makes some sense, and puts some clarity on some of the confusion that was being spread earlier

Nope, didn't work for me.

Draining a system to work on a motorised valve isn't a hardship if the valve is positioned correctly In front of the cylinder for easy access and not behind it, under it or buried in the wall, for some reason (some) installers think the cylinder will be replaced long before the valves would ever need to be looked at

Back in the day when i worked for a living:eek: burnt out motors were as common as they are now, that's why you can get the motors over the counter(as mentioned earlier) , i would have pretty much always replaced the motor rather than the head as its much cheaper;), I was lucky as most valves then were Honeywell. I don't know now what other manufactures have motors as a over the counter part, but I could get the Honeywell motor in to a good few other valves .

Merch · 11-02-2013 12:15AM

shane0007 wrote: »

What a load of waffle!
Maintenance valves on radiators so radiator can be taken off the wall! What do you think radiator valves do?
Maintenance valve on motorised valves, again WOT, where do you stop? There would be maintenance valves everywhere. How
Many gate type valve let by? They do not seal.
It's hard enough pricing jobs but now you would prefer a maintenance valve at every joint! But then we are all cheap skates for this!

Motorised valves wired via a switch have motor powered permanently. The motor has a coil which heats. They are located in a hot press normally covered in clothing & surrounded by hot pipes. They over time burn out due to overheat contributed by continuous power & lack of ventilation to dissipate the heat from them.

Do you mean a switch thats wired and intended to be operated manually?? or just that its wired correctly and is in high use?

Whats the possible lifetime of a valve? I know thats like how long is a piece of string, just wondering what peoples experiences are.

Are there things that can help prevent early failure, other than correct wiring?
I dont have a foam insulated tank but its well lagged as are all the pipes (hot and cold), that and perhaps a ventilated panel in the wall or door of a hotpress?
or is it more/only to do with the amount cycles of the valve? and is there anything that an be done to aid valve life?

Irish Steve · 11-02-2013 03:36AM

The maintenance valves on the radiators mean that they can be taken off the wall without being drained, and without having to try and make sure that water doesn't get spilt on the floor while draining it. Have you ever had to try and get the staining out of a carpet after the water in a radiator got spilt when the container overflowed, or split, or got knocked over, or whatever, and the water at the bottom of some radiators is a very interesting colour if it's been there any length of time.

If the system is inhibited, it also means that the total loss of water is minimal, if the rad is not drained, and it makes putting it back on the wall and getting it working again a lot simpler than having to refill it, and get the air out, and sort out the levels in the tank or the pressure vessel, and the strength of the inhibitor. All for the sake of 2 valves per radiator that when I put them in were less than €1.50 each. They look like a straight coupler, don't restrict flow, and were fitted here after we had to take every radiator off the wall so that repairs could be done after a massive flood in 2002.

Gate valves don't always seal, that's true, the cheaper they are the more likely that will be the case, but even so, they can and do make replacing a leaking MV body a LOT simpler, quicker and therefore cheaper. If I have a choice of paying a few Euro for extra valves that will mean a MV can be replaced in less than 20 minutes, without draining the system, and without having to close valves on all the radiators, or whatever, I know which I prefer.

Maybe I was very unlucky with the "plumber" that put our sytem in, the boiler is a 120K Bthu Riello Oil boiler, so not small or lightweight, and it had to be taken out to replace the pump, as the pillock that put it in put it behind the boiler and directly under the flue pipe, and inaccessible once the boiler case had been fitted.

One extra metre of 28 mm copper pipe, and 3 90 degree elbows moved it to a place where it can be got to, or adjusted, without needing a midget with 4 ft long arms to get to it.

I have 3 MV's, and I've replaced 2 motor bodies and 1 valve body in 23 years, but mine are not buried in walls, or behind the tank, or otherwise inaccessible, and they're also not mounted above the pipe so that all the heat rises from the pipe into the motor body. On one, the gears wore out so that the motor didn't drive correctly, and the other one the return spring broke so the valve didn't close, so neither of the motors as such failed. The body that was leaking was due to the O rings wearing, so the stem was leaking. All in all, I've no complaints about MV's or the heat exchanger that gives me 50C water on the top of the tank 5 minutes after a cold start of the system, though I did have to design an in situ descaler system for it because of how hard the Ashbourne water is.

The boiler is used most days, even in Summer, the hot water is heated by the boiler, it's cheaper, and it keeps the system circulating. Very occasionally, a TRV valve stem will stick, that takes all of 30 seconds to deal with, a pair of needle nose pliers sorts that out once the head is removed.

It's all about expectations. TRV's are almost mandatory now, but 20 years ago, how many systems had TRV's fitted? Not many, because they cost more than a manual valve. Same with heat exchangers, most people had tanks with internal heating coils, they were cheaper, but a heat exchanger is a lot more effective at providing hot water in a hurry, but they cost more. Most houses didn't get spray insulated tanks then, if you were lucky you got an insulating jacket, but things have changed now, but a lot of that is because the rules were changed to force the use of many of these things, and it's the same with double or treble glazing.

Once upon a time, I spent my time selling computers, and the ones I was selling were not cheap. A lot of the time, I was up against "competition" that wasn't really competition, but they were cheap. That meant I had to sell the product, and the end result, not the price. If the product I was selling provided a better overall end result for the user, even if it was dearer, I got the business, and over the years, I did. Same with plumbing, and all the other areas, the lowest price is not necessarily the best price, there are ALWAYS compromises somewhere.

11-02-2013 12:04PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

The maintenance valves on the radiators mean that they can be taken off the wall without being drained, and without having to try and make sure that water doesn't get spilt on the floor while draining it. Have you ever had to try and get the staining out of a carpet after the water in a radiator got spilt when the container overflowed, or split, or got knocked over, or whatever, and the water at the bottom of some radiators is a very interesting colour if it's been there any length of time.

If the system is inhibited, it also means that the total loss of water is minimal, if the rad is not drained, and it makes putting it back on the wall and getting it working again a lot simpler than having to refill it, and get the air out, and sort out the levels in the tank or the pressure vessel, and the strength of the inhibitor. All for the sake of 2 valves per radiator that when I put them in were less than €1.50 each. They look like a straight coupler, don't restrict flow, and were fitted here after we had to take every radiator off the wall so that repairs could be done after a massive flood in 2002.

Gate valves don't always seal, that's true, the cheaper they are the more likely that will be the case, but even so, they can and do make replacing a leaking MV body a LOT simpler, quicker and therefore cheaper. If I have a choice of paying a few Euro for extra valves that will mean a MV can be replaced in less than 20 minutes, without draining the system, and without having to close valves on all the radiators, or whatever, I know which I prefer.

.

As in any skill based environment, a good plumber/heating engineer is able to work quite happily on a heating system without the drama you describe, the fitting of extra valves would be against good working practise and a added potential problem to me.

Different heating systems can have different characteristics, so to judge what works or doesn't work is helped by experiencing many different issues and repairing them, if like the OP I had issues with motorised valves I would be looking at position, environment, wiring, manufacture and quality of water, I would also be thinking about swapping them out for a valve with a replaceable synchron motor.

11-02-2013 12:33PM

Merch wrote: »

Do you mean a switch thats wired and intended to be operated manually?? or just that its wired correctly and is in high use?

I'm not Shane:eek: but I'll give it a go:)

The quality of wiring in heating systems at times isn't great and anything is possible, heating wiring is very easy and follows a simplistic format, S-plan, Y-plan, W-plan etc... they have these formats so gas men like me can wire heating systems, if a heating system is wired incorrectly then this can leave the valve in the open position unnecessarily leading to a early demise of the valve.

I good plumber/heating engineer would be able to advise on your installation failing that the often unread manual can be handy.

Once a valve is fitted properly(ventilation, wiring, clean water, position) and with no other issues then the life span of the valve is dictated by the motor(usually), some motors can work for many years and then some can go quite quickly but if they were to continually go then that would normally point at a problem.

gdavis · 11-02-2013 12:49PM

what about sticking maintenance valves either side of the maintenance valves!? oh wait,then fit them either side of them too!If you are unable to prevent spilling your "container" over then i suggest you get a competent person to remove rad etc. A good plumber will leave the place as he found it and will spend time preparing area for work so as not to have any "accidents"

shane0007 · 11-02-2013 02:22PM

gary71 wrote: »

I'm not Shane:eek: but I'll give it a go:).

Hmmmm......

shane0007 · 11-02-2013 02:26PM

Merch wrote: »

Do you mean a switch thats wired and intended to be operated manually?? or just that its wired correctly and is in high use?

Whats the possible lifetime of a valve? I know thats like how long is a piece of string, just wondering what peoples experiences are.

Are there things that can help prevent early failure, other than correct wiring?
I dont have a foam insulated tank but its well lagged as are all the pipes (hot and cold), that and perhaps a ventilated panel in the wall or door of a hotpress?
or is it more/only to do with the amount cycles of the valve? and is there anything that an be done to aid valve life?

Yes wired so they can be switched off manually via a switch. Normally the boiler will be fired via basic APT time clock, possibly wired to the boiler via a room stat in the hall. There would then be two switches, one for upstairs & then other for downstairs. No matter what, the cylinder will always be heated whenever the boiler is on. In Summer, the switches can be switched off so that the boiler only heat the cylinder. Therefore the motorised valves are permanently powered independentnf the boiler until the summer time when rads are not required.

Dtp79 · 11-02-2013 06:54PM

shane0007 wrote: »

Yes wired so they can be switched off manually via a switch. Normally the boiler will be fired via basic APT time clock, possibly wired to the boiler via a room stat in the hall. There would then be two switches, one for upstairs & then other for downstairs. No matter what, the cylinder will always be heated whenever the boiler is on. In Summer, the switches can be switched off so that the boiler only heat the cylinder. Therefore the motorised valves are permanently powered independentnf the boiler until the summer time when rads are not required.

And then the plumber is called in to change the burnt out valves

Irish Steve · 11-02-2013 08:16PM

Beginning to wonder if this is a serious DIY thread or after hours.

OK, so Irish plumbers don't like maintenance valves. Fine, but I'm not about to get a plumber in to take a radiator off the wall if a decorator is going to paint the room. I'm sure they'd prefer me to, and would like to make it look like taking a radiator off the wall is a complicated and technical job. Yeah, there's a simple reply. Horsefeathers. 4 valves, 2 union nuts, lift and carry with no worries about spills, the leakage will be less than an eggcup at each end, so a paper towel round the pipe is more than adequate. Seen way too many cases where a decorator or a home DIYer has destroyed a carpet by spilling seriously dirty water from a radiator when removing it.

As it's clear the "professionals" don't like the input, I am happy to let them carry on ripping people off. I won't bother again, it's clear that they resent the suggestion that there are alternatives to the cheap and nasty way. Some of the comments made about maintenance valves are total garbage, and only intended to frighten people off using them.

That's fine, I am happy to have mine, and to put them in for anyone that wants them.

Strange, I'm about to go out this evening to do a major repair job for a restaurant that has constant problems with their dishwasher and wash up sink blocking. Hardly surprising really, the "plumber" that put them in used 40mm waste with over 6 90 degree bends, nearly 20 metres of horizontal run with no fall on it, and no rodding or clearing access points at either end, it's not surprising they block up. This is the third restaurant I've had to sort out in the last 6 months with similar problems, and it's down to "professionals" that have used the wrong sizes and no fall on long runs, with too many bends and no way to get back into the pipes to clear them if there's a problem. It will work tomorrow.

Dtp79 · 11-02-2013 09:48PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

Beginning to wonder if this is a serious DIY thread or after hours.

OK, so Irish plumbers don't like maintenance valves. Fine, but I'm not about to get a plumber in to take a radiator off the wall if a decorator is going to paint the room. I'm sure they'd prefer me to, and would like to make it look like taking a radiator off the wall is a complicated and technical job. Yeah, there's a simple reply. Horsefeathers. 4 valves, 2 union nuts, lift and carry with no worries about spills, the leakage will be less than an eggcup at each end, so a paper towel round the pipe is more than adequate. Seen way too many cases where a decorator or a home DIYer has destroyed a carpet by spilling seriously dirty water from a radiator when removing it.

As it's clear the "professionals" don't like the input, I am happy to let them carry on ripping people off. I won't bother again, it's clear that they resent the suggestion that there are alternatives to the cheap and nasty way. Some of the comments made about maintenance valves are total garbage, and only intended to frighten people off using them.

That's fine, I am happy to have mine, and to put them in for anyone that wants them.

Strange, I'm about to go out this evening to do a major repair job for a restaurant that has constant problems with their dishwasher and wash up sink blocking. Hardly surprising really, the "plumber" that put them in used 40mm waste with over 6 90 degree bends, nearly 20 metres of horizontal run with no fall on it, and no rodding or clearing access points at either end, it's not surprising they block up. This is the third restaurant I've had to sort out in the last 6 months with similar problems, and it's down to "professionals" that have used the wrong sizes and no fall on long runs, with too many bends and no way to get back into the pipes to clear them if there's a problem. It will work tomorrow.

There's good and bad professionals in every trade. Good professional plumbers don't need pointless service valves where not needed. And good plumbers will use correct size piping and falls for waste pipes( not that that has anything to do with this thread. Good DIYers are grand for assembling flat pack furniture from ikea but once a saw is needed it's time to call a carpenter in!

gdavis · 11-02-2013 10:51PM

can u get service valves for waste pipe runs? dragons den here i come

shane0007 · 11-02-2013 10:59PM

To be honest I couldn't bring myself to read any of that waffle. Got bored after first paragraph.
Saw the point where we are all ripping people off or something to that effect.
Sounds like a bit of a fiddler to me, loves slagging trade people but will probably be the first to ask for help when he sitting in a pile of his own mess.

Irish Steve · 11-02-2013 11:52PM

shane0007 wrote: »

To be honest I couldn't bring myself to read any of that waffle. Got bored after first paragraph.
Saw the point where we are all ripping people off or something to that effect.
Sounds like a bit of a fiddler to me, loves slagging trade people but will probably be the first to ask for help when he sitting in a pile of his own mess.

And you would be SO wrong.

Bought 2 very old cottages in 1973, got planning for conversion to 5 bed detached. Did 90% of the work ourselves, including ALL the PLUMBING, ELECTRICS, roofing, joinery and other works. Electrics & gas were signed off certified first time with no issues.

Had a builder working with me to do the blocklaying, and as the walls were stone cob and over 200 years old, had a professional plasterer do that work.

Moved to Ireland 1990.

Supervised our build in Ashbourne, which is how I found out about cowboy tradesmen at first hand, and made them take out their carp and do it properly.

Had to finish the heating system myself because the sparks couldn't understand a circuit diagram for a 3 zone MV actuated time switch controlled system using a Randell panel, and tried to wire in with 1.5 solid, even though it was fused 3 Amp.

Sorted out all the work needed after a flood in 2000 that did close on 40K damage, plumbing, electrics, new units, and the like.

Supervised and sorted some of the work after a much bigger flood in 2002, (120K damage) electrics, plumbing, removed all door linings and skirtings and replaced the lot, had contractor in to sort out tiling 200 Sq mtrs of floor, and a contractor to replace the kitchen, and a painter/decorator only because I'd just had surgery for prostate cancer 3 months earlier, so I was restricted by the doctor from doing some things for a number of months.

The electrics this time included installing and getting certified, (first time with no problems) a fully automatic diesel powered 3 phase 30 Kva standby generator with full start up and auto shutdown, which I did all the installation work and wiring for, along with the 3 phase panels 10 years earlier.

What I object to, strongly, is trades people on places like boards, and other fora, that rubbish people that dare to have a different opinion to them, especially when they also spout rubbish to justify their position, and there's been more than a bit of that in both this thread and a number of others that I've read and not participated in.

Way too many supposed tradesmen in this country never actually learnt their trade, they just copied what they were shown, which in some cases was not always a lot.

That's why I had to do so much work to the electrics and the plumbing in this house after we moved in, of the 30 houses at this end of our estate, ours was the only one for 5 years that had a reliable and working heating system, because I'd done the design work and the layout, and I didn't accept any deviation from that. Just as well, every other house that was built at the same time had major problems with the electrics and the plumbing as a direct result of early examples of celtic tiger cowboys.

Every hardwood door in this house has less than 1/8" gap around it, because that's the way I was taught how to fit doors, and they are all clear varnished because they are good enough quality and fit to be able to to that, unlike the majority of supposedly tradesman fitted doors these days, where if the gap is less than 3/8" you're doing well, and if the lock also works, that's regarded as a bonus.

To achieve that, I had to get close on 4K worth of specialised joinery tools, like a decent table saw, thicknesser, and compound mitre saw, and even with those expenses, it still was a significantly cheaper job than all the quotes I was given for doing the work, and my labour was costed in to it at relevant rates, so no shortcuts or fiddles there.

So No, I'm NOT a fiddler, I know a damn sight more about what's going on around me that even a good DIY er, which is why people pay ME to do work for THEM on restaurants and the like.

That's where I'm going how, to sort out yet another mess that was left by a "professional" plumber a while ago. When I've finished, it will work. If for some reason it doesn't, then I will fix it, but I'm not expecting any call backs on this job either, and this is not the first job I've done for this customer.

Oh, and in closing, none of the above were my full time professional job, that was in a completely different area and trade. Just in case you were wondering.

And to save time and effort for all concerned, a number of people in this thread are now on my ignore list,

shane0007 · 12-02-2013 12:01AM

Ok so you're a fiddler & an author!
Sorry could not bring myself to read through your life history.

This forum, in my understanding, is to help people who are in need of helping. We as professionals give professional advice & give up our time to share our knowledge because it is nicer to give than to receive. It is actually enjoyable.
Where I lose interest is with waffle & slagging our trade & being accused of ripping people off. You have done both with tremendous expertise so if your are feeding your kicks from your off the planet posts, I'm afraid this is my final reply to you.

gifted · 12-02-2013 07:29AM

And another one that descends into a slagging match....:rolleyes:

jjf1974 · 12-02-2013 09:44AM

Dtp79 wrote: »

What's that saying ??? Jack of all trades, ...... .. ....!!

No what he is saying is he is the only man in ireland that knows anything about wiring,pluming,hanging doors,unblocking sinks and the list goes on.
As my grandmother used to say self praise is no praise;)

Merch · 12-02-2013 01:16PM

gary71 wrote: »

I'm not Shane:eek: but I'll give it a go:)

The quality of wiring in heating systems at times isn't great and anything is possible, heating wiring is very easy and follows a simplistic format, S-plan, Y-plan, W-plan etc... they have these formats so gas men like me can wire heating systems, if a heating system is wired incorrectly then this can leave the valve in the open position unnecessarily leading to a early demise of the valve.

I good plumber/heating engineer would be able to advise on your installation failing that the often unread manual can be handy.

Once a valve is fitted properly(ventilation, wiring, clean water, position) and with no other issues then the life span of the valve is dictated by the motor(usually), some motors can work for many years and then some can go quite quickly but if they were to continually go then that would normally point at a problem.

I checked online to see if there was an instal manual still available for my boiler (its well over a decade old at this stage), I found one and suprisingly (or maybe not) it actually shows the wiring plans you mention. There was no owner manula, but its so basic, on/off, boiler heat control,set mechanical timer and summer valve.
I wanted to look it up to see if was capable or needed to have additional controls (like pump running on after boiler shuts off) but it seems it isnt built for that.
The more I read the more I pick up about it, ie Im fairly certain my boiler doesnt have a bypass, Im still not sure if it will be needed as the valve or valves will turn on and off the boiler, unless they fail and shut and still call for heat??
I have a list of things needed done in the house but really, re-insulating the attic and getting something done to the heating controls are on the cards to be done by the end of the summer, we probably wont have cold winters if I do that, although I wont care, I did not use to mind but its getting to be a right pain in the hole running around the house turning stuff on/off, up/down to manage the heat as the current controls consist of the boiler thermostat, a mechanical timer clock (I find the half hour intervals ok), plus the summer valve (manually operated) is right behind the tank, awkward to get to and I can only turn off the rads, but not the hot water (seperately in the winter when the heating is used, so it seems continually heating water is a waste).
I think the boiler might even be too big (its just a normal domestic boiler) but it always switches on and off when its running, not every few seconds but after 10 mins it will turn off and then on again, the lower its set the more it will do it.

I want minimum temperature setting in some rooms without them overheating (so think need to change those valves for thermostatic valves) and controlability in the most used rooms so a thermostat probably in the livingroom (maybe a second in the main bedroom) and then so as not to heat water uneccesarily a valve to control that too.

Its a good few months off but trying to inform myself what I need done and whats best suited to my heating, if I make a suggestion and a person doesnt know what Im talking about then I'll think they know less on the subject than me and will want to be paying someone else to do the job.

Hearing a few problems/concerns of valves/actuators going makes me think its a better idea to get informed in advance of what makes sound reliable, instead of having to continually follow up problems after, although it seems installation faults may be as likely to create problem than the products themselves.

12-02-2013 02:02PM

For more info have a look at http://sd.defra.gov.uk/documents/chess-2008.pdf

I was changing motors on motorised valves (positioned in front of the cylinder with easy access) 25 years ago without any drama, the only difficulty I see now is the ludicrous position of valves allowing no access to the valve and the lack of correct wiring, whoever decided a switch on the wall was a acceptable heating control deserves a good kicking.

It's not a hardship to have simplistic hot water temperature statl, you can fit a mechanical temperature stat instead of electrical controls which will give you a element of control on your hot water reducing costs and prevent possible scolding.

slavetothegrind · 12-02-2013 03:27PM

Reminds me of the heinbloed days........

Dtp79 · 12-02-2013 06:30PM

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Reminds me of the heinbloed days........

You took the words out of my mouth!!

Merch · 13-02-2013 10:27PM

gary71 wrote: »

For more info have a look at http://sd.defra.gov.uk/documents/chess-2008.pdf

I was changing motors on motorised valves (positioned in front of the cylinder with easy access) 25 years ago without any drama, the only difficulty I see now is the ludicrous position of valves allowing no access to the valve and the lack of correct wiring, whoever decided a switch on the wall was a acceptable heating control deserves a good kicking.

It's not a hardship to have simplistic hot water temperature statl, you can fit a mechanical temperature stat instead of electrical controls which will give you a element of control on your hot water reducing costs and prevent possible scolding.

Thanks for that pdf link, I'll have a read through that, looked over it and it looks good, plenty of information there.
I thought the wall mounted switches were a joke at first, then sarcasm, I'm stunned that someone bothered to do that, why bother???
I am thinking of a mechanical stat initially for the living room and tank, thermostatic valves where necessary and a programmable timer controller overall.

I got a price for the parts even though its a bit away to give me an idea of the cost of the parts, but it had two straight through zone valves, originally after reading up I was thinking one mid position valve, my house has no seperation of pipes for zones other than hot water and heating, not sure of the advantage of having the heating (water and house) seperated and controlled by one mid position valve or two straight through valves, especially from a point of view of actuators wearing out quicker.

Id need only a small to moderate amount of hot water throughout the year, but more heat in the winter.
Ideas what the labour would be?

KoolKid · 14-02-2013 08:04AM

Posts deleted@
Infraction for Dtp79.
If you are going to continue to post here try to be civil and respectful to others.
You have racked up a few infractions in a very short time. This would suggest that either you are just trolling or you just need to change your posting style

14-02-2013 02:21PM

Merch wrote: »

Thanks for that pdf link, I'll have a read through that, looked over it and it looks good, plenty of information there.
I thought the wall mounted switches were a joke at first, then sarcasm, I'm stunned that someone bothered to do that, why bother???
I am thinking of a mechanical stat initially for the living room and tank, thermostatic valves where necessary and a programmable timer controller overall.

I got a price for the parts even though its a bit away to give me an idea of the cost of the parts, but it had two straight through zone valves, originally after reading up I was thinking one mid position valve, my house has no seperation of pipes for zones other than hot water and heating, not sure of the advantage of having the heating (water and house) seperated and controlled by one mid position valve or two straight through valves, especially from a point of view of actuators wearing out quicker.

Id need only a small to moderate amount of hot water throughout the year, but more heat in the winter.
Ideas what the labour would be?

I would stick to a simplistic S-plan wiring system as it's the most common design, 3-port valves are rare(but simple) and would require a decent heating engineer to do it for you.

I wouldn't be to concerned about the 2 port valves(actuators) they get a bad press due to installation errors or at times bodies being replaced when a motor would do, I fitted a lot of Honeywell valves back in the day and had no issues, but then I never fitted one under a cylinder:).

As for the light switches on the wall, they are common place and silly, instead of fitting a 3 channel programmer tradesmen? will fit 3 light switches and mark them with a kiddies felt tip indicating which zones they control

, sometimes the felt tip lies, so the switches don't match the zones indicated, I know which trade is to blame, but some of my best friends are electricians so I'm not going to mention them:D.

When it comes to things like labour, get a couple of quotes and look for a plumber that does his own wireing.

jjf1974 · 14-02-2013 04:22PM

gary71 wrote: »

As for the light switches on the wall, they are common place and silly, instead of fitting a 3 channel programmer tradesmen? will fit 3 light switches and mark them with a kiddies felt tip indicating which zones they control, sometimes the felt tip lies, so the switches don't match the zones indicated, I know which trade is to blame, but some of my best friends are electricians so I'm not going to mention them:D.

When it comes to things like labour, get a couple of quotes and look for a plumber that does his own wireing.

I agree with you gary but the plumber/electrician who use the light switchs proberly put the cheapest price on the job.He more than likely told the customer that they didnt need programmers ,room stats or a cylinder stat.
A lot of people go for the cheapest price not realising it will work out more expensive in the end when they have no proper control over there heating system.

shane0007 · 14-02-2013 04:28PM

jjf1974 wrote: »

I agree with you gary but the plumber/electrician who use the light switchs proberly put the cheapest price on the job.He more than likely told the customer that they didnt need programmers ,room stats or a cylinder stat.
A lot of people go for the cheapest price not realising it will work out more expensive in the end when they have no proper control over there heating system.

Absolutely correct. Full boiler interlock with programmable time & temperature control is the best & most cost effective way of controlling your heating system.
I agree also with Gary. S plan is the simplest way of wiring & most decent RGI's are trained & certed in this works under the GID certification scheme.

jjf1974 · 14-02-2013 05:03PM

s plan wiring explainedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIY_T6mx7KM

14-02-2013 05:09PM

jjf1974 wrote: »

I agree with you gary but the plumber/electrician who use the light switchs proberly put the cheapest price on the job.He more than likely told the customer that they didnt need programmers ,room stats or a cylinder stat.
A lot of people go for the cheapest price not realising it will work out more expensive in the end when they have no proper control over there heating system.

I'm just being cheeky, I don't really blame sparks for all my woes, but when a room stat is fitted above a rad or in a bookcase or above a toaster or 71/2 foot up the wall, when as tradesmen are we going to take responsibility and stop messing. Heating components get a bad press due to installation errors, a roomstat fitted by the front door isn't going to work but again it's common to see them there.

It's not about cheapness it's about stupidity, why fit a valve under a cylinder, why fit a boiler to a heavily sludged system, why fit a zone valve and hide the wires, why use the boiler earth as a switch live etc.. These things I'm coming across now and it would be lovely if things were done properly, but then again what would I have to pontificate about:D

shane0007 · 14-02-2013 05:15PM

There was a post here on Boards recently where the homeowner knew there was a motorised valved installed somewhere, know it was inside a wall but just did not know where!!!
Plumbers now need stethoscopes as part their tool kit to listen for hidden motors turning....

actuator issue

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