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My geothermal heating system experience

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24

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    #32
    jlptheman
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭jlptheman


    Hey,

    I have lost all my numbers recently since my phone packed in but if you google climate control Galway you'll find them.

    mrsloftus wrote: »
    Hi jlptheman, thanks for such a detailed and informative thread. Our build is very similar to yours, although the u-value of our windows won't be a match for yours. Could you pm the details for your installer as we are looking for quotations at the moment for a geothermal,UFH system.. Thanks..


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    #33
    jlptheman
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭jlptheman


    Update on usage - 2099 units which is approximately 335 euros since 1st Feb 2012.

    Still constant temperature in house despite frosty nights


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    #34
    jimjimt
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭jimjimt


    Would it be fairer to say a cost per unit would be closer to .21c including vat and standing charge.

    Even at which you are still getting great value to heat your house.


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    #35
    jlptheman
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭jlptheman


    jimjimt wrote: »
    Would it be fairer to say a cost per unit would be closer to .21c including vat and standing charge.

    Even at which you are still getting great value to heat your house.

    You know what, I never even thought on that!! I've no idea what the gross cost of a unit of electricity is but am assuming that you do! That leaves my total since Feb around 440 euros.


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    #36
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    jlptheman wrote: »
    That leaves my total since Feb around 440 euros.
    That seems a lot for such a high investment. I have 3,000sqft house I have used one fill of oil for the same period. Given today's prices of oil, lets round upto €1,000 so that is roughly €500 more than you. On those figures, it will take you 20 years to break even! Lets hope the heat pump outlives the 20 years as this will significantly bump up your costs and pay back time.
    I would have went for gas!


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    #37
    corkgsxr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭corkgsxr


    shane0007 wrote: »
    That seems a lot for such a high investment. I have 3,000sqft house I have used one full of oil for the same period. Given today's prices of oil, lets round upto €1,000 so that is roughly €500 more than you. On those figures, it will take you 20 years to break even! Lets hope the heat pump outlives the 20 years as this will significantly bump up your costs and pay back time.
    I would have went for gas!

    my gas bill is averaged over the whole year. so i pay 25 per month.

    now we dont use the hot cylinder, and were out monday to friday till 5 ish, so its evening and maybe half hour in the morning when it gets very cold

    with gas cooker and oven

    thats only 225 for that period. with a potterton suprima that i should servise soon.

    3 bed house that would be on the large size. (im not great with sq ft)


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    #38
    jas0nmcbride
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭jas0nmcbride


    shane0007 wrote: »
    That seems a lot for such a high investment. I have 3,000sqft house I have used one fill of oil for the same period. Given today's prices of oil, lets round upto €1,000 so that is roughly €500 more than you. On those figures, it will take you 20 years to break even! Lets hope the heat pump outlives the 20 years as this will significantly bump up your costs and pay back time.
    I would have went for gas!

    Shane0007, do have any other heat source in the house? Stove or fire and if so how much do you spend on fueling them?


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    #39
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    jas0nmcbride wrote: »

    Shane0007, do have any other heat source in the house? Stove or fire and if so how much do you spend on fueling them?
    No, extra heat source only an open fire with no back boiler. I have UFH on both floors and solar contributing to DHW.


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    #40
    watto
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭watto


    Hi jlptheman,

    I'm having a geothermal heating system installed in a house I'm building at the moment and unfortunately I can't get the information we need on the plumbing out of the heating system supplier despite numerous efforts. I was wondering if you could PM the details of your installer so I can ask him for advice?

    Thanks


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    #41
    jlptheman
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭jlptheman


    Final update.

    After one year (including the initial dry out period):
    3400 units
    Approx 612 euros (18c per unit). Its probably a little less than that since electricity was a little cheaper before October last year.
    I have since installed my 1.4meter radius corner bath. If I'm planning a bath I adjust the DHW temp up to 50c from 43c an hour in advance and I have a piping hot bath no problem at all.

    The house was pleasantly warm all winter, no other heat source required. I lit the wood burning stove a few nights over xmas for cosyness, but had to open the windows each time as it got too hot.

    Overall, I'm over the moon with the performance and efficiency of my geothermal setup and would recommend it to anyone.

    You may be able to keep your oil bills pretty low by only heating certain rooms at certain times etc but if you want a warm house 24x7 then this is the only way to go IMHO.

    I'm not too worried that it might take 12-15 years to recoup the investment, having experienced UFH heating for a year now, I would have paid double for the installation.

    Hope this thread helps people out there who are sitting on the fence (as I once was). I'll not be posting here again but PM me if you have any queries and I'll be happy to help when time permits.

    Regards,
    John


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    #42
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    jlptheman wrote: »
    Final update.

    After one year (including the initial dry out period):
    3400 units
    Approx 612 euros .................

    I have been reading your reports with interest. I see that you have your house very well insulated. Perhaps your house is almost passive? I ask because a nephew of mine is just digging out his foundations for a new house and is thinking of going down the same route as you. I am worried that he will not have as well insulated house as you and therefore may not get near as good value from his system.

    Any thoughts on this?

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #43
    jlptheman
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭jlptheman


    Hey,

    Yes I think you already know the answer to this. If he is not willing to invest in the insulation, then he should not even consider Geo. AFAIK Geo just doesnt work in a poorly insulated house. He would find his electricity bill would be sky high and still the house would not be warm. This is because Geo is a low temperature heat source. I think oil works better in a poorly insulated house because of its high temperature output (I will easily stand corrected on that statement as I'm mostly guessing)

    My house is 2600sqft dormer bungalow and I spent about 10k on insulation, plus my windows were around 8k I think (euros). If someone could not afford to both insulate properly and install Geo, I would recommend that they spend the budget on insulation and install oil and rads or some other low cost heating system.

    The key component is the insulation, it dont really matter what you use to heat your house with after that.

    I keep referring to my brothers house as we built at same time, similar size and similar insulation spec. He uses oil and rads and our bills for the year were very similar, I only saved 100 euros (oil and electricity combined).

    The main benefit that I have (in my opinion) over him is that I have that constant temperature whereas he only turns on the oil when the house gets cold plus over the past 2 months, he has been burning logs/sticks most nights.

    But either way, with great insulation, both house are very inexpensive to keep warm.

    By the way, my house is far from passive but its as close as I could get to it while keeping a sensible budget!

    Hope this helps,
    John
    Wearb wrote: »
    jlptheman wrote: »
    Final update.

    After one year (including the initial dry out period):
    3400 units
    Approx 612 euros .................

    I have been reading your reports with interest. I see that you have your house very well insulated. Perhaps your house is almost passive? I ask because a nephew of mine is just digging out his foundations for a new house and is thinking of going down the same route as you. I am worried that he will not have as well insulated house as you and therefore may not get near as good value from his system.

    Any thoughts on this?


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    #44
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    jlptheman wrote: »
    Hey,

    Yes I think you already know the answer to this. If he is not willing to invest in the insulation, then he should not even consider Geo........

    Thanks jlptheman. I will show him this post. It confirms my thoughts on how he should go. I did expect (as revealed by comparison with your brother's house) that with your insulation spec that oil heating would not be much more expensive. I also take the point you make about your always on heating as against using oil sparingly.
    I am sure that you have been very helpful to lots of people with your information, records and invaluable comparison with your brothers build. Thank you.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #45
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    jlptheman wrote: »
    Hey,

    Yes I think you already know the answer to this. If he is not willing to invest in the insulation, then he should not even consider Geo. AFAIK Geo just doesnt work in a poorly insulated house.

    I would take it one step further if he is not willing to invest in the insulation he shouldnt consider building at all.

    You hear so much about the savings you can make with heat pumps in properly insulated houses, but what people fail to mention that when you insulate a house to the highest standards required for heat pumps the cost of heating your house by oil, gas, wood pellets would be so low it makes the recoup cost of the heatpump almost unrealistic


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    #46
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    TPM wrote: »
    jlptheman wrote: »
    Hey,

    Yes I think you already know the answer to this. If he is not willing to invest in the insulation, then he should not even consider Geo. AFAIK Geo just doesnt work in a poorly insulated house.


    I would take it one step further if he is not willing to invest in the insulation he shouldnt consider building at all.

    You hear so much about the savings you can make with heat pumps in properly insulated houses, but what people fail to mention that when you insulate a house to the highest standards required for heat pumps the cost of heating your house by oil, gas, wood pellets would be so low it makes the recoup cost of the heatpump almost unrealistic
    Exactly the point I was trying to get information on and did from jlptheman.


    The days of unlimited mortgages are well and truly over. So he has to be realistic if he is to stay whiten budget. I will ask him to read this thread and advise him that I think that he should put in as much insulation as affordable and oil heating (not near a gas line). Maybe even put in pipes for underfloor heating,- for future proofing- but the feasibility of that he can research himself. We would all like passive houses, but we have to cut our cloth according to our measure.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #47
    creedp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,676 ✭✭✭creedp


    TPM wrote: »
    jlptheman wrote: »
    Hey,

    Yes I think you already know the answer to this. If he is not willing to invest in the insulation, then he should not even consider Geo. AFAIK Geo just doesnt work in a poorly insulated house.


    I would take it one step further if he is not willing to invest in the insulation he shouldnt consider building at all.

    You hear so much about the savings you can make with heat pumps in properly insulated houses, but what people fail to mention that when you insulate a house to the highest standards required for heat pumps the cost of heating your house by oil, gas, wood pellets would be so low it makes the recoup cost of the heatpump almost unrealistic

    In my case the cost of installing oil heating had to include the additional cost of solar panels which are required by Building Regs in order to achieve the required level of renewables energy for heating. I cant remember what the precise figures were but when combining the cost of oil and solar the overall figure was not much less than the cost of the heat pump. I agree it would still take some time to recover this differential but I didn't want oil - it might be pithy but I liked the idea of not needing an oil tank and dealing with oil fills etc. Wood pellets systems were also very expensive at the time and there was also concerns around wood pellet supply. Gas would have been my preferred option if I had access to main gas. For me therefore installing a HP was a good option particularly as it is very suitable for low temp UFH heating, it is very clean, quiet, and requires very little maintenance. It is also pretty efficient in my book.


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    #48
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    TPM wrote: »
    I would take it one step further if he is not willing to invest in the insulation he shouldnt consider building at all.

    You hear so much about the savings you can make with heat pumps in properly insulated houses, but what people fail to mention that when you insulate a house to the highest standards required for heat pumps the cost of heating your house by oil, gas, wood pellets would be so low it makes the recoup cost of the heatpump almost unrealistic
    Very good point. If you can achieve zero heat loss, you can heat your house with a candle! The heat source is only required to bring the heat to the desired level & maintain it.


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    #49
    Condenser
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Condenser


    creedp wrote: »
    TPM wrote: »

    In my case the cost of installing oil heating had to include the additional cost of solar panels which are required by Building Regs in order to achieve the required level of renewables energy for heating. I cant remember what the precise figures were but when combining the cost of oil and solar the overall figure was not much less than the cost of the heat pump. I agree it would still take some time to recover this differential but I didn't want oil - it might be pithy but I liked the idea of not needing an oil tank and dealing with oil fills etc. Wood pellets systems were also very expensive at the time and there was also concerns around wood pellet supply. Gas would have been my preferred option if I had access to main gas. For me therefore installing a HP was a good option particularly as it is very suitable for low temp UFH heating, it is very clean, quiet, and requires very little maintenance. It is also pretty efficient in my book.

    It also has to be taken into consideration that the amount of KWH's produced by both systems would be vastly different. If you were to run the oil to achieve the same level of consistent comfort and temperature then the heating bills would be very different. I can guarantee you that if you put a heat meter on both systems the oil boiler will have produced less than half the energy that the heat pump produced. Its a factor that is often ignored, as when people achieve low energy costs they forget that they're not sparing it and worrying about leaving it running outside of specific hours. The cost of running the circulating pump is also included in the figures above which should be deducted from the overall cost as the oil boiler would incurr that cost too.


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    #50
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Condenser wrote: »
    creedp wrote: »

    It also has to be taken into consideration that the amount of KWH's produced by both systems would be vastly different. If you were to run the oil to achieve the same level of consistent comfort and temperature then the heating bills would be very different. I can guarantee you that if you put a heat meter on both systems the oil boiler will have produced less than half the energy that the heat pump produced. Its a factor that is often ignored, as when people achieve low energy costs they forget that they're not sparing it and worrying about leaving it running outside of specific hours. The cost of running the circulating pump is also included in the figures above which should be deducted from the overall cost as the oil boiler would incurr that cost too.
    Cost of running a circulating pump would be negligible, about €15 per annum. Does a heatpump not also have a circulating pump on the heating side so the cost would be the same, probably more for a heat pump system.
    A Band A gas boiler would modulate down to suit whatever demand is thrown at it at any particular time. Therefore if just maintaining a highly insulated house, it would be on low output modulatin mode.


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    #51
    Condenser
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Condenser


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Condenser wrote: »
    Cost of running a circulating pump would be negligible, about €15 per annum. Does a heatpump not also have a circulating pump on the heating side so the cost would be the same, probably more for a heat pump system.
    A Band A gas boiler would modulate down to suit whatever demand is thrown at it at any particular time. Therefore if just maintaining a highly insulated house, it would be on low output modulatin mode.

    I was refering to the heating circulator and this would cost more than €15, closer to €50.
    It wouldn't matter how the gas bolier (which very few people have) modulated the energy consumption would be far greater. The heat pump above is costing about 2.5-3c per kw produced. How much will the equivalent cost with a gas boiler.
    Insulation merely retains heat the cost of producing that heat per Kw is what matters and that doesn't change very much unless you have poor insulation.


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    #52
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    I am not disputing the fact that heat pumps can produce heat very cheaply in relation to running costs, my point is that when a house has high insulation levels the resulting cost to heat the house is relatively low.

    When this is the case, the installation cost of the heating appliance becomes far more relative.

    The installation cost of a heat pump is considerably higher than an oil boiler, possibly resulting in an unrealistic pay back period.

    The lower the heating costs, the lower the saving, the longer the relative payback time.

    IMO Regardless of the heating appliance there should be no difference in the attention paid to how houses are insulated.
    Saying that you need to insulate your house to a higher standard in order to use a heat pump over oil/gas is bull.

    Yes if you dont insulate your house to a sufficient standard the heat pump sized for that house wont heat the house or heat it at very high costs, but the same would be the case if you fitted an oil/gas boiler with the same heat output rating. 12-16 kw heat pumps would be a common size where as 26-30 kw is often the oil boiler size fitted in the same size house


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    #53
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    TPM wrote: »
    I am not disputing the fact that heat pumps can produce heat very cheaply in relation to running costs, my point is that when a house has high insulation levels the resulting cost to heat the house is relatively low.

    When this is the case, the installation cost of the heating appliance becomes far more relative.

    The installation cost of a heat pump is considerably higher than an oil boiler, possibly resulting in an unrealistic pay back period.

    The lower the heating costs, the lower the saving, the longer the relative payback time.

    IMO Regardless of the heating appliance there should be no difference in the attention paid to how houses are insulated.
    Saying that you need to insulate your house to a higher standard in order to use a heat pump over oil/gas is bull.

    Yes if you dont insulate your house to a sufficient standard the heat pump sized for that house wont heat the house or heat it at very high costs, but the same would be the case if you fitted an oil/gas boiler with the same heat output rating. 12-16 kw heat pumps would be a common size where as 26-30 kw is often the oil boiler size fitted in the same size house

    Seeing as the highest demand for heating is in the living area, has anybody ever did regular insulation in the rest of the house, but lots of extra in the living area? It would cut down on insulation costs and also on heating costs. Other areas of the house would be heated to a lower temperature and therefore (heat loss being linked to the temperature difference between heated area and outside) still only the same heat loss as the area with greater insulation and higher temperature.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #54
    Condenser
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Condenser


    Wearb wrote: »
    Seeing as the highest demand for heating is in the living area, has anybody ever did regular insulation in the rest of the house, but lots of extra in the living area? It would cut down on insulation costs and also on heating costs. Other areas of the house would be heated to a lower temperature and therefore (heat loss being linked to the temperature difference between heated area and outside) still only the same heat loss as the area with greater insulation and higher temperature.

    You'd have to insulate the living area from the rest of the house as heat will flow from the warm areas to the cold and call on your heating more regularly.
    Insulate to the extremities of your house and to the best level affordable to you.


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    #55
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Condenser wrote: »


    as heat will flow from the warm areas to the cold and call on your heating more regularly.
    Insulate to the extremities of your house and to the best level affordable to you.

    There is already temperature differences in different areas of houses with multi zoned control.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #56
    Condenser
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Condenser


    None that make any difference to the running cost. You'd actually have to insulate your internal walls and seal off the doors.


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    #57
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Condenser wrote: »
    None that make any difference to the running cost. You'd actually have to insulate your internal walls and seal off the doors.

    In my house there is a difference. I have the bedrooms on a different zone and a lower temperature. They even feels cooler. Have I wasted my money installing this zone? Common sense tells me that I am making a saving by doing this, but I have no hard evidence.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #58
    Condenser
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Condenser


    Wearb wrote: »
    In my house there is a difference. I have the bedrooms on a different zone and a lower temperature. They even feels cooler. Have I wasted my money installing this zone? Common sense tells me that I am making a saving by doing this, but I have no hard evidence.

    You're not saving anything as the heat from the warm zones flows towards the colder zones. The warm zones heat constantly and the cold ones rarely switch on as they are satisfied by the warmer areas. The point of insulation is to slow the release of heat from inside to outside by as much as possible. When you have no barrier to heat transfer such as inside then the heat will migrate.


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    #59
    tdmci
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭tdmci


    Hi JLP,
    I live in Letterkenny and am getting ready to start a new build. I am very interested in Geo Thermal and talking to someone local who has experience of the installation process / through to day to day living with it. I would be keen to know who you used locally / for this system / windows used / insullation installer. Could you PM me any useful / reliable suppliers you found locally (I am planning on going direct labour route). I plan to have the house highly insulated and would be keen to get reputable local installers/ suppliers
    Thanks T


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    #60
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Condenser wrote: »
    You're not saving anything as the heat from the warm zones flows towards the colder zones. The warm zones heat constantly and the cold ones rarely switch on as they are satisfied by the warmer areas. The point of insulation is to slow the release of heat from inside to outside by as much as possible. When you have no barrier to heat transfer such as inside then the heat will migrate.

    I am interested in this idea. So are you sure that I am making no savings by having the bedrooms zoned differently. Surely the the walls and doors offer some insulation and therefore some impediment to the transfer of heat from the warm zones to the colder ones. Otherwise why do the bedrooms feel colder, even after having the heating on all day during the weekends. Also the difference between the temperetures in the zones is relatively small, therefore the inclination for heat migration is small. This idea of extra zones is very hard to research. There is little concrete (no pun int...) infomation on it. But I still notice different temperatures in the different zones and therefore there has to be savings to be had by doing this, or am I just "whistling past the graveyard".

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #61
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Condenser wrote: »

    You're not saving anything as the heat from the warm zones flows towards the colder zones. The warm zones heat constantly and the cold ones rarely switch on as they are satisfied by the warmer areas. The point of insulation is to slow the release of heat from inside to outside by as much as possible. When you have no barrier to heat transfer such as inside then the heat will migrate.
    This is simply not true. Heat cannot open & close doors after it! By having different zones at differing temperatures is a useful way of saving energy.
    For example, bedrooms would be comfortable at a consistent temp of 18c, whilst living areas would be 20c, but bathrooms would be 22c. Why, because of the level of clothing we wear in those rooms, living areas we hopefully wear normally attire, bathrooms we have nothing on & bedrooms we are wrapped up in cosy duvets!
    By having the varying temps in each zone, heat loss is based on the outside temp relative to the internal design temp for that zone. We base calculations on -3 outside temp so for a living area that would be a design delta T of 23c but a bathroom would be a delta T of 25c.
    With this in mind, each room can be calculated upon its own merits, i.e. u value of walls, floors, ceilings, windows, external doors, etc.
    This room having a differing delta T will have a direct impact upon the overall demand of the system & ultimately the running costs of said system.


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