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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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Comments

  • #2582
    Masteroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    J C wrote: »
    The sons of God are the angels ... and in Gen 6:1 they were the fallen angels ... who engaged in the corruption of the Human genome ... and the resulting offspring were the Nephalim.

    All the angels are the directly created Sons of God

    Angels can physically manifest ... and these particular angels used their fallen knowledge to produce the Nephalim ... who were the progeny of their nefarious activity.

    Lol - now you are claiming that angels have DNA. Not only that but the right DNA with the right number of chromosomes and furthermore, each possessing the 'y-chromosome' just as Adam did.

    Why is Adam not recognised as just another fallen angel since his DNA was so similar to the angels' DNA?

    In whose image were the angels created?

    No, the bible is clear, humans were created as distinct from angels. The 'Sons of God' are distinguished from the daughters of humans.

    So here we are again, the Sons of God corrupt the daughters of humans through sleight of hand techniques and yet it is the humans who are held responsible.

    That's like blaming the woman for being raped!

    Think about that position, the angels break the laws of God by coupling with women. In order to do that they had to be physically manifest as men and in order to do that they had to defy God. And it is humans who are labelled as evil? All of them?

    But again, you have demonstrated your ability to misunderstand the text you quote.
    J C wrote:
    Anway, lets look at what was happening just before the Flood:-

    Genesis 6
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

    2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

    3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

    4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

    5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Verse 2 refers to 'the Sons of God' and not 'a small number of the more disobedient Sons of God'. But in order to fit in with your view you have to treat that verse as non-literal. Sure, it says 'the Sons of God' but that doesn't mean all the Sons of God.

    You have to otherwise you would have to concede that God created a perverted race when He created the angels. Verse 2 of your quote indicates that angels are attracted to women.

    And again, in order to support your viewpoint, you decide that verse 5 of the same passage is to be taken literally. So, verse 5 is a fact but verse two is not?

    How do you manage to sleep with all that cognitive dissonance going on?

    Also, in order to support your 'stated world-view' you have to ignore verse 4 altogether!

    In some translations of that passage, the 'mighty men of old' are referred to as the 'heroes of old' - Is 'evil' really a connotation of 'heroic'?

    So, verse 4 indicates that the offspring of human/angels were an improvement on humans since there was obviously a need for heroes. That sounds like evolutionary progress to me. And if we have 'heroes', 'mighty men of old', 'men of renown' then why would God need a flood?

    Obviously then it wasn't a corrupted human genome problem. I mean, if our genes have been infected with evil by angels then how can mankind be held responsible by God? Didn't He clean Mary's mother's womb so that Mary would be born out of sin? Why can't He do that for all mothers?

    In other words, how do you reconcile verse 4 with verse 5?

    How do you get from 'mighty men of old, men of renown' to 'continual evil' in the hearts of man?

    It doesn't follow. If the intention of that passage was to show that man is evil then why contextualise it within the 'Sons of God' framework where the behaviour of the Sons of God, who were engaged in a form of bestiality, mitigates that evil?

    If humans were infected with evil by angels then why do you use the word 'punishment' rather than 'cure'?

    And didn't God do exactly the same thing as those angels when He made Jesus?



  • #2583
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    The Concrete Doctor wrote: »
    No JC. My problem is that you equate "rescuing" with killing. You make it sound so benign when you say "taking them into his care". In actual fact he kills them and they experience an early death, which was extremely painful and distressing.
    Children die and are killed today ... because God, in His infinite wisdom hasn't put an end to death. We can only speculate on why He hasn't done so ... one reason is that He told Adam that if He sinned that death would follow ... one possible reason is that if sinful men were to be physically immortal then there would be no possible way to physically eliminate them ... just think of what would happen if a Hitler or a Stalin were to be physically immortal ... they would make life on Earth a living 'hell' for everyone else.
    The Concrete Doctor wrote: »
    Quite clearly there was not "wall to wall evil" when a huge number of the people were, in fact children and babies who were not evil. I am sure that the evil present in the recent past, like 1939 -1945 was just as bad as anything that happened at any time in history.
    All Mankind except Noah and his family became irredeemably evil at the time ... and the Nazis were only a small minority of Humanity.
    ... so the Second World wasn't as evil as the pre-Flood era ... but there will come a time when the pre-Flood levels of evil will be achieved again ... and it will be so awful that the Rapture will be the result.


  • #2584
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Masteroid wrote: »
    Not if Hitler or Stalin repent and accept Jesus Christ as their saviour. If they did that then their evil will be un-noticed by God.
    If they repented they could be Saved ... just like any other sinner.
    You're like a guy whinging over somebody being fogiven a million Euro debt ... when he could avail of the same amnesty for his own mortgage ... but couldn't be bothered to do so.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    And yet Hitler may well reside with your loving father who despises evil.
    That is true ... but Hitler will have to have repented first ... and we don't have any evidence that he did.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    When did God decide to stop rescuing children from abusive adults?

    Where was God when millions of Chinese were being slaughtered?

    Where was He when the schools in Iraq were being bombed?

    God is not in the rescue business and He does not hear the prayers of children who don't want to be abused.
    God is there in all of these situations ... but He has given Humanity the freedom to be evil or good ... and He doesn't generally intervene to remove this freedom.


  • #2585
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Masteroid wrote: »
    Exactly, what would a 'loving God do?

    'A loving God' would have dealt with Hitler before more than six-million of His children were tortured and murdered in his concentration camps.

    'A loving God' would turn bombs that are falling on schools into confetti.

    'A loving God' would cause a paedophile priest to have a stroke before he could abuse the praying child.
    A 'loving God' might do all of these things and more ... but a just God who gave Humanity free will, may be unable to do these things because such interventions would render free will meaningless.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    The evidence is that if God does exist, He is not at all loving. Remember, it was God who put a murderous drunk in charge of Christianity.
    Just because some evil persons abuse their God-given free will doesn't have any implications for God himself ... and Paul's conversion should be a source of hope for all sinners ... and it isn't a reason for hypocritical condemnation by us as sinners ourselves.

    Masteroid wrote: »
    Also, if all humans from infants to the elderly are inherently evil as you believe, then how can you rule out the possibility that Hitler was simply a plague sent by God to punish the wicked?
    Hitler was an example of the depths of depravity to which human evil can descend ... nothing more ... nothing less.

    Masteroid wrote: »
    Think about it, all of the people that suffered because of Hitler were evil by your own definition and therefore deserving of eternal damnation.

    And tell me, how can there be varying degrees of eternal perdition? Will the 'lake of fire prepared for Satan and his angels' be able to differentiate levels of sin?

    How many ways can one 'burn for eternity'?
    I guess some will be toasted to a crisp ... while others will just get a tan!!!:eek:


  • #2586
    Masteroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    J C wrote: »
    You're like a guy whinging over somebody being fogiven a million Euro debt ... when he could avail of the same amnesty for his own mortgage ... but couldn't be bothered to do so.

    I don't have a mortgage though.

    I do get taxed to bail out those who were greedy however.

    Or are you one of those who feel that poor people should subsidize the rich?

    And it is quite telling that you consider a one-million euro debt is analogous to the murder of over six-million people.
    J C wrote:
    That is true ... but Hitler will have to have repented first ... and we don't have any evidence that he did.

    Nor is there any to show he didn't!

    And if a belief in Jesus and a guilt-trip are all that you need to get into heaven then I can easily imagine how Hitler looked upon his dead Eva and wept and prayed to God, 'My poor Eva! What have I done? Father! Forgive me!!'

    And then, according to you, God would say, 'Forget about the six-million' (which, by the way, is not analogous to writing off a mortgage),
    'forget about all the sons that were killed in combat, forget about the desolate mothers burying their children, forget about the fact that you halved the global population of my 'chosen people', I forgive you. Mi casa si casa!'

    To err is human, to forgive divine. Why are we still waiting to be forgiven?

    And how come the slaughter of millions of people could actually have been the reason that Hitler went to heaven whereas a lack of faith is enough to get me into hell?
    J C wrote:
    God is there in all of these situations ... but He has given Humanity the freedom to be evil or good ... and He doesn't generally intervene to remove this freedom.

    This is not about whether God is there or not, it is about the fact that you have no evidence to support the idea that the God that is there is a loving or just God except for a book that is filled with stories of hate and revenge.

    Humans, God's children, are stupid. They can't play together, they hurt and bully each other and yet your loving and just God simply says, 'Do as you will. Let the strong oppress the weak. I will not interfere in the sufferring of the innocent and if the evil repent then their deeds will be forgotten.'

    That's just bad parenting.

    And if God doesn't put stock on any result of free will except where free will leads us to a lack of faith then why should we?


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  • #2587
    Masteroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    J C wrote: »
    All Mankind except Noah and his family became irredeemably evil at the time ... and the Nazis were only a small minority of Humanity.
    ... so the Second World wasn't as evil as the pre-Flood era ... but there will come a time when the pre-Flood levels of evil will be achieved again ... and it will be so awful that the Rapture will be the result.

    Wait a minute... is it humans or angels that are responsible for the post-flood evil? Were the Sons of God at it again or is Noah the progenitor of all the evil that exists today?

    Hmm, either God decided to keep just a little evil in the world or He failed to control His perverted Sons again.


  • #2588
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Masteroid wrote: »
    I don't have a mortgage though.

    I do get taxed to bail out those who were greedy however.

    Or are you one of those who feel that poor people should subsidize the rich?

    And it is quite telling that you consider a one-million euro debt is analogous to the murder of over six-million people.
    Unlike Humans, God didn't make anybody else pay for other peoples sins ... He paid the debt Himself in full by His atoning death.
    The analogy was one of relative scale of sin ... and not a measure of sin ... because no amount of money can atone for even one sin ... or the killing of even one person.

    Masteroid wrote: »
    Nor is there any to show he didn't!
    Quite true ... if Hitler repented and believed on Jesus Christ ... he will have been Saved ... and this possibility should make lesser sinners even more determined to be Saved ... rather than possibly letting Hitler have all the fun for eternity while they look on from the heat of Hell.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    And if a belief in Jesus and a guilt-trip are all that you need to get into heaven then I can easily imagine how Hitler looked upon his dead Eva and wept and prayed to God, 'My poor Eva! What have I done? Father! Forgive me!!'

    And then, according to you, God would say, 'Forget about the six-million' (which, by the way, is not analogous to writing off a mortgage),
    'forget about all the sons that were killed in combat, forget about the desolate mother burying their children, forget about the fact that you halved the global population of my 'chosen people, I forgive you. Mi casa si casa!'
    It is a bitter pill to swallow ... it is a remote possibility ... but a possibility none-the-less. However, if my sin is to be forgiven ... then I logically cannot complain about other people's sin also being forgiven. This is what happened when Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery ... all the people present ... who came to stone her, realised they were also sinners, just as much in need of forgiveness ... and just as undeserving.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    To err is human, to forgive divine. Why are we still waiting to be forgiven?
    ... I'm not waiting ... I'm Saved ... why are you still waiting to be forgiven your sins?
    Masteroid wrote: »
    And how come the slaughter of millions of people could actually have been the reason that Hitler went to heaven whereas a lack of faith is enough to get me into hell?
    You're making unfounded assumptions about Hitler's salvation.
    ... if (and it's a very big if), Hitler was Saved ... it would be his repentance and humble acceptance of God's ability to Save him that would have saved him ... and the reason why Hell may await you, is your refusal to reject it and ask God to Save you.
    God will not force anybody to be Saved.

    Masteroid wrote: »
    This is not about whether God is there or not, it is about the fact that you have no evidence to support the idea that the God that is there is a loving or just God except for a book that is filled with stories of hate and revenge.

    Humans, God's children, are stupid. They can't play together, they hurt and bully each other and yet your loving and just God simply says, 'Do as you will. Let the strong oppress the weak. I will not interfere in the sufferring of the innocent and if the evil repent then their deeds will be forgotten.'

    That's just bad parenting.
    God asks people not to sin ... and to do unto others as they would like to be treated themselves.
    If they sin they suffer (what comes around goes around) ... Hitler died like a dog shivering in a sack ... and sometimes they also cause suffering in other people ... but that is the price of the free-will that we all enjoy. The alternative is for us all to be programmed deterministic robots.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    And if God doesn't put stock on any result of free will except where free will leads us to a lack of faith then why should we?
    God accepts the free decisions of people to accept or reject Salvation.


  • #2589
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Masteroid wrote: »
    Wait a minute... is it humans or angels that are responsible for the post-flood evil? Were the Sons of God at it again or is Noah the progenitor of all the evil that exists today?
    Humans are still Fallen ... and capable of great evil ... or great good.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    Hmm, either God decided to keep just a little evil in the world or He failed to control His perverted Sons again.
    You present a false dichotomy ... neither is true ... God didn't create evil ... we did ... and the fallen angels are still with us ... but we can use our free will to reject and rebuke them ... or to wallow in their suggestions for depravity!!


  • #2590
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    This theology is very interesting ... but it is somewhat off topic ...

    ... here is an interesting proof of the intelligent design of life ... for the mathematicians amongst you ... enjoy...



  • #2591
    Masteroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    J C wrote: »
    A 'loving God' might do all of these things and more ... but a just God who gave Humanity free will, may be unable to do these things because such interventions would render free will meaningless.

    You must deny the power of prayer then?

    I'd love to know what you mean by 'just'. Allowing the innocent to suffer at the hands of evil because of free-will does not sound just to me. Where is the justice for those who suffer? Is compensation the same as justice?

    I get that God is happy to live with evil, what I don't get is how a loving and just God can allow the innocent to suffer as if they were evil and deserved it.

    So, it's not about good versus evil as God will forgive evil before He would forgive the faithless - it's not about justice as evil deeds do not concern God in the end, faith does - it's not about love as one of the connotations of love is protection and it is evil that is most protected in this world.

    What did Jesus say? "Thy will be done, In earth as it is in heaven"? What could that mean?

    And why is free-will more important than protection and justice?
    J C wrote: »
    Just because some evil persons abuse their God-given free will doesn't have any implications for God himself ... and Paul's conversion should be a source of hope for all sinners ... and it isn't a reason for hypocritical condemnation by us as sinners ourselves.

    Conversion? You mean the story he concocted to fool Peter the ROCK?

    Paul simply showed that there is one born every minute and indeed, sinners would be filled with hope. There is a new victim born every minute - great news for sinners.

    And try to make the free-will argument work in the situation where an adult gives a child matches to play with. If evil is able to wreak havoc on God's creation then why would He tolerate it and provide a mechanism through which it could easily operate, free-will?

    That is either an act of gross responsibility or it is evidence that God wants evil to have a foothold on the world and these support the notion of a non-loving God. He keeps on giving children matches to play with and we keep burning His house down.

    "In earth as it is in heaven."?

    Heaven's losing its appeal.:(
    J C wrote: »
    Hitler was an example of the depths of depravity to which human evil can descend ... nothing more ... nothing less.

    A bit like Samuel?

    What would you say was the main difference between Samuel and Hitler?
    J C wrote: »
    I guess some will be toasted to a crisp ... while others will just get a tan!!!:eek:

    I guess there is more to the bible than you realised, huh?:rolleyes:


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  • #2592
    Masteroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    J C wrote: »
    Unlike Humans, God didn't make anybody else pay for other peoples sins ... He paid the debt Himself in full by His atoning death.
    The analogy was one of relative scale of sin ... and not a measure of sin ... because no amount of money can atone for even one sin ... or the killing of even one person.


    Quite true ... if Hitler repented and believed on Jesus Christ ... he will have been Saved ... and this possibility should make lesser sinners even more determined to be Saved ... rather than possibly letting Hitler have all the fun for eternity while they look on from the heat of Hell.

    It is a bitter pill to swallow ... it is a remote possibility ... but a possibility none-the-less. However, if my sin is to be forgiven ... then I logically cannot complain about other people's sin also being forgiven. This is what happened when Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery ... all the people present ... who came to stone her, realised they were also sinners, just as much in need of forgiveness ... and just as undeserving.

    ... I'm not waiting ... I'm Saved ... why are you still waiting to be forgiven your sins?

    You're making unfounded assumptions about Hitler's salvation.
    ... if (and it's a very big if), Hitler was Saved ... it would be his repentance and humble acceptance of God's ability to Save him that would have saved him ... and the reason why Hell may await you, is your refusal to reject it and ask God to Save you.
    God will not force anybody to be Saved.


    God asks people not to sin ... and to do unto others as they would like to be treated themselves.
    If they sin they suffer (what comes around goes around) ... Hitler died like a dog shivering in a sack ... and sometimes they also cause suffering in other people ... but that is the price of the free-will that we all enjoy. The alternative is for us all to be programmed deterministic robots.

    God accepts the free decisions of people to accept or reject Salvation.

    Exactly, God does precisely nothing and again there is no actual evidence of God one way or another.

    Your entire argument stands on CFI. They only evidence that you can put on the table is DNA. The existence of DNA is ultimately all you can offer as proof of the existence of any creative God at all. DNA says nothing about love or justice. And the bible demonstrates the opposite.

    In any case, if God doesn't interfere with free-will then how come we even know about hell? Surely God must have realised that the fear of retribution would have an effect on the free-will of many of us. The laws of man operate largely as a deterrent for most of us as we fear the consequences and that has an effect on free-will.

    Why does God need to frighten us into loving Him?

    Why doesn't He show His goodness by ridding the world of evil once and for all?

    What kind of God needs His children to suffer?


  • #2593
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Masteroid wrote: »
    You must deny the power of prayer then?
    Salvation is the ultimate in support for free-willed prayer ... which can Save people. However a prayer that God will coerce somebody into doing someting that they don't want to do you is likely to not be answered.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    I'd love to know what you mean by 'just'. Allowing the innocent to suffer at the hands of evil because of free-will does not sound just to me. Where is the justice for those who suffer? Is compensation the same as justice?
    ... God retains the right to exercise vengeance upon the wicked ... but usually they do most of the work themselves. Evil people reap what they sow ... without any need for God to intervene.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    I get that God is happy to live with evil, what I don't get is how a loving and just God can allow the innocent to suffer as if they were evil and deserved it.
    God isn't happy to live with evil ... but He tolerates it so that good may also survive. The parable of the wheat and the tares helps explain this issue.
    God has given the innocent the ability collectively and individually to defend themselves ... and sometimes neither party to a conflict are particulary good ... and they both stoop to evil when they can.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    So, it's not about good versus evil as God will forgive evil before He would forgive the faithless - it's not about justice as evil deeds do not concern God in the end, faith does - it's not about love as one of the connotations of love is protection and it is evil that is most protected in this world.
    Ultimately it's about love and faith versus hate and justice. The choice about which we receive is up to each one of us.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    What did Jesus say? "Thy will be done, In earth as it is in heaven"? What could that mean?
    It was a wish ... and not a requirement.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    And why is free-will more important than protection and justice?
    Just think of an all-controlling dictatorship that 'protects' you from the cradle to the grave and controls your every thought and action ... and tell me why freedom is the most important thing that we can possess.
    Every right we can possibly possess is grounded on our freedom. Without free will we lose our atonomy and Humanity.

    Masteroid wrote: »
    Conversion? You mean the story he concocted to fool Peter the ROCK?

    Paul simply showed that there is one born every minute and indeed, sinners would be filled with hope. There is a new victim born every minute - great news for sinners.

    And try to make the free-will argument work in the situation where an adult gives a child matches to play with. If evil is able to wreak havoc on God's creation then why would He tolerate it and provide a mechanism through which it could easily operate, free-will?
    Because for good and love to operate free-will is also required ... and goodness and love will always trump evil and hatred.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    That is either an act of gross responsibility or it is evidence that God wants evil to have a foothold on the world and these support the notion of a non-loving God. He keeps on giving children matches to play with and we keep burning His house down.
    We aren't children with diminished responsibilty for our actions due to our diminished understanding of what we do. We are adult Human Beings, the majority of whom metaphorically build houses and create homes using the very same free will that others use to metaphorically burn them down.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    "In earth as it is in heaven."?

    Heaven's losing its appeal.:(
    For me, the appeal of Earth is in direct ratio to it's compliance with the will of God ... but you have the freedom of holding the opposite opinion.

    Masteroid wrote: »
    A bit like Samuel?

    What would you say was the main difference between Samuel and Hitler?
    I don't know ... what would you say it was?
    Masteroid wrote: »
    I guess there is more to the bible than you realised, huh?:rolleyes:
    I'm always learning !!!:)


  • #2594
    The Concrete Doctor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭The Concrete Doctor


    If God is all powerful and all loving, why does he not just destroy Satan and all of the evil ones and just let us get on with our lives, minus that all that temptation?
    If he had done that back in Noah's time he would not have needed the flood, would he?


  • #2595
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Masteroid wrote: »
    Exactly, God does precisely nothing and again there is no actual evidence of God one way or another.
    The physical evidence for God is in His Creation.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    Your entire argument stands on CFI. They only evidence that you can put on the table is DNA. The existence of DNA is ultimately all you can offer as proof of the existence of any creative God at all. DNA says nothing about love or justice. And the bible demonstrates the opposite.
    CFSI provides compelling physical evidence for the existence of God. It doesn't tell us what kind of God He is ... but the words of Jesus Christ tells us that.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    In any case, if God doesn't interfere with free-will then how come we even know about hell? Surely God must have realised that the fear of retribution would have an effect on the free-will of many of us. The laws of man operate largely as a deterrent for most of us as we fear the consequences and that has an effect on free-will.
    Fear can have an effect on the abuse of our free will ... but it doesn't remove it ... as our prison population can testify.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    Why does God need to frighten us into loving Him?
    He lays a choice before us ... but He doesn't force us to take one option or the other ... as the many unsaved people in the World testifies.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    Why doesn't He show His goodness by ridding the world of evil once and for all?
    The complete ridding of the world of evil once and for all, would involve the ridding of the world of every huiman being ... because we are all fallen, evil beings, to some degree.
    It would be 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater', if you ask me
    Masteroid wrote: »
    What kind of God needs His children to suffer?
    God doesn't need or want anybody to suffer ... but we do a good line in suffering ourselves!!!:)


  • #2596
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    The Concrete Doctor wrote: »
    If God is all powerful and all loving, why does he not just destroy Satan and all of the evil ones and just let us get on with our lives, minus that all that temptation?
    Satan was Created an eternal free-willed Spirit Being ... so destroying him would be a negation of his created eternality. Equally, we would be quite capable of providing plenty of temptation to sin ourselves ... even if Satan was destroyed.
    The Concrete Doctor wrote: »
    If he had done that back in Noah's time he would not have needed the flood, would he?
    Thats assumption and conjecture ... but in any event, it would be a negation of Satans free-will ... and indeed the free will of Humanity.


  • #2597
    Masteroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    J C wrote: »
    Humans are still Fallen ... and capable of great evil ... or great good.

    I do not know the question to which that is the answer. I asked you if Noah's 'righteous family' carried the seeds of evil or was humanity re-infected by the Sons of God?

    I mean, what is the point of sending a flood because of evil and preserving the seeds of evil at the same time?

    Why would God choose such an ineffectual cure for the evil in man's heart? Why not do Noah's family too and make a new Adam and Eve and this time make them resistant to the advances of angels?

    And the land was barely dry from the flood when evil had regained its foothold. Moses may have been rescuing his people from evil but evil had reigned over those people for generations. And even the Canaanites suffered evil within a few hundred years of the flood and at the hands of Moses' ancestors as all humans must have been back then.

    Also, empires and populations are known to have existed within a few hundred years of the time of your proposed flood so there must have been wars during that empire building. At the time of Abraham the Egyptian empire was in full swing.

    How many people populated that empire? How many people had to die in building that empire?

    If the flood happened 4,500 years ago then within a few hundred years the Egyptian empire was built. Completely.

    You are suggesting that within no more than a couple of dozen generations of Noah the world was populated by enough people to live and die in the process of empire building and war-mongering. This is simply not feasible.

    So, precisely how long after God cleansed the planet was it before evil re-established itself as a problem?
    J C wrote:
    You present a false dichotomy ... neither is true ... God didn't create evil ... we did ... and the fallen angels are still with us ... but we can use our free will to reject and rebuke them ... or to wallow in their suggestions for depravity!!

    You are completely wrong, God created us to be 'temptable', He created us naive and God created the fallen angels. It is that combination that gives rise to evil and God is indeed entirely responsible for the fact that either evil exists because His mechanisms are faulty or because He intended for evil to exist. Punishing humans for the existence of evil is neither just nor is it loving. When God saved Noah He saved evil too.

    Maybe He's trying to evolve a better class of evil and we are simply being used as incubators for evil. Again, neither loving nor just.


  • #2598
    Masteroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    J C wrote: »
    Just think of an all-controlling dictatorship that 'protects' you from the cradle to the grave and controls your every thought and action ... and tell me why freedom is the most important thing that we can possess.
    Every right we can possibly possess is grounded on our freedom. Without free will we lose our atonomy and Humanity.

    I prefer to think of a computer created and programmed by God and He is blaming the windows search-helper dog for the data corruption that He can't seem to prevent.
    J C wrote:
    I don't know ... what would you say it was?

    Well, Samuel said that God told him to tell Saul to go and engage in a program of genecide. Samuel then told Saul that God said He was displeased with him for sparing the life of a man, a man who Samuel himself hacked to pieces.

    And then of course, Samuel got himself another 'yes-man' into whose ear he was able to whisper the words of God.

    I think the main and most remarkable difference between Samuel and Hitler is that one is revered and the other is despised.

    Similarly with Adam and Abraham. Consider, Adam took the view that the order not to each the fruit had been rescinded becaused an angel effectively told him (through Eve)that that was the case. Did Abraham know about Adam? How could he be sure that the angel who appeared to him wasn't a manifestation of Lucifer trying to thwart God's will?

    God said 'Don't do it' to Adam and an angel said 'It's alright, do it' and Adam 'does it' on the one hand and on the other, God said 'Do it' to Abraham and an angel said 'Don't do it' and Abraham 'didn't do it' - these scenarios are qualitatavely the same and yet again, Adam is despised for what he did and Abraham is revered for what he didn't.
    J C wrote:
    I'm always learning !!!:)

    Hmm.:)


  • #2599
    The Concrete Doctor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭The Concrete Doctor


    J C wrote: »
    Satan was Created an eternal free-willed Spirit Being ... so destroying him would be a negation of his created eternality. Equally, we would be quite capable of providing plenty of temptation to sin ourselves ... even if Satan was destroyed.

    Thats assumption and conjecture ... but in any event, it would be a negation of Satans free-will ... and indeed the free will of Humanity.

    I have a problem here JC, if God ceated man, and was so dissappointed with his creation turning evil that he destroyed it, and if he (God) created Satan, who was pure evil, why did he allow him to continue to exist, when the other "evils" he created were being expunged. Why would an all powerful creator do that? He killed kids, who were a kind of collateral damage, so why would Satan be allowed to survive?


  • #2600
    The Concrete Doctor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭The Concrete Doctor


    J C wrote: »
    Unlike Humans, God didn't make anybody else pay for other peoples sins ... He paid the debt Himself in full by His atoning death.

    Wow JC, I nearly missed that little nugget of wisdom from your interesting rants. Wow, wow, wow, How can you argue so blantantly from both sides of your mouth? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that EXACTLY what he did to the little innocent kids in the flood??????


  • #2601
    The Concrete Doctor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭The Concrete Doctor


    J C wrote: »
    Satan was Created an eternal free-willed Spirit Being ... so destroying him would be a negation of his created eternality. Equally, we would be quite capable of providing plenty of temptation to sin ourselves ... even if Satan was destroyed.

    Thats assumption and conjecture ... but in any event, it would be a negation of Satans free-will ... and indeed the free will of Humanity.

    What is wrong with negating Satan's free-will. Surely that would be quite a good thing to do, unless you are a supporter of Satan.


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  • #2602
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Masteroid wrote: »
    I do not know the question to which that is the answer. I asked you if Noah's 'righteous family' carried the seeds of evil or was humanity re-infected by the Sons of God?

    I mean, what is the point of sending a flood because of evil and preserving the seeds of evil at the same time?

    Why would God choose such an ineffectual cure for the evil in man's heart? Why not do Noah's family too and make a new Adam and Eve and this time make them resistant to the advances of angels?

    And the land was barely dry from the flood when evil had regained its foothold. Moses may have been rescuing his people from evil but evil had reigned over those people for generations. And even the Canaanites suffered evil within a few hundred years of the flood and at the hands of Moses' ancestors as all humans must have been back then.

    Also, empires and populations are known to have existed within a few hundred years of the time of your proposed flood so there must have been wars during that empire building. At the time of Abraham the Egyptian empire was in full swing.

    How many people populated that empire? How many people had to die in building that empire?

    If the flood happened 4,500 years ago then within a few hundred years the Egyptian empire was built. Completely.

    You are suggesting that within no more than a couple of dozen generations of Noah the world was populated by enough people to live and die in the process of empire building and war-mongering. This is simply not feasible.

    So, precisely how long after God cleansed the planet was it before evil re-established itself as a problem?
    Its a matter of the scale and depth of evil ... before the Flood it was almost everybody and total ... after the Flood it was only some people and partial.

    Masteroid wrote: »
    You are completely wrong, God created us to be 'temptable', He created us naive and God created the fallen angels. It is that combination that gives rise to evil and God is indeed entirely responsible for the fact that either evil exists because His mechanisms are faulty or because He intended for evil to exist. Punishing humans for the existence of evil is neither just nor is it loving. When God saved Noah He saved evil too.

    Maybe He's trying to evolve a better class of evil and we are simply being used as incubators for evil. Again, neither loving nor just.
    Humans are capable of using their free will for good or evil ... and God wants us to be good.


  • #2603
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Masteroid wrote: »
    I prefer to think of a computer created and programmed by God and He is blaming the windows search-helper dog for the data corruption that He can't seem to prevent.
    ... we aren't programmed deterministic computers ... we're free-willed morally responsible eternal beings.
    If your analogy was correct, police would issue penalty points to cars for speeding ... and would charge computers with fraud!!!:D

    Masteroid wrote: »
    Well, Samuel said that God told him to tell Saul to go and engage in a program of genecide. Samuel then told Saul that God said He was displeased with him for sparing the life of a man, a man who Samuel himself hacked to pieces.

    And then of course, Samuel got himself another 'yes-man' into whose ear he was able to whisper the words of God.

    I think the main and most remarkable difference between Samuel and Hitler is that one is revered and the other is despised.

    Similarly with Adam and Abraham. Consider, Adam took the view that the order not to each the fruit had been rescinded becaused an angel effectively told him (through Eve)that that was the case. Did Abraham know about Adam? How could he be sure that the angel who appeared to him wasn't a manifestation of Lucifer trying to thwart God's will?

    God said 'Don't do it' to Adam and an angel said 'It's alright, do it' and Adam 'does it' on the one hand and on the other, God said 'Do it' to Abraham and an angel said 'Don't do it' and Abraham 'didn't do it' - these scenarios are qualitatavely the same and yet again, Adam is despised for what he did and Abraham is revered for what he didn't.
    It goes to prove that you need to be very careful about what you do ... and somewhat less careful about what you don't do.:)


  • #2604
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    The Concrete Doctor wrote: »
    I have a problem here JC, if God ceated man, and was so dissappointed with his creation turning evil that he destroyed it, and if he (God) created Satan, who was pure evil, why did he allow him to continue to exist, when the other "evils" he created were being expunged. Why would an all powerful creator do that? He killed kids, who were a kind of collateral damage, so why would Satan be allowed to survive?
    You're confusing physical death with spiritual immortality. Both Satan and people are eternal spirit beings.


  • #2605
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    The Concrete Doctor wrote: »
    Wow JC, I nearly missed that little nugget of wisdom from your interesting rants. Wow, wow, wow, How can you argue so blantantly from both sides of your mouth? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that EXACTLY what he did to the little innocent kids in the flood??????
    God paid the penalty for sin Himself ... and He rescued any innocent people from pre-Flood evil.


  • #2606
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    The Concrete Doctor wrote: »
    What is wrong with negating Satan's free-will. Surely that would be quite a good thing to do, unless you are a supporter of Satan.
    The price of negating free-will for everybody (to do both good and ill) is obviously too high.


  • #2607
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    ... here is a thought-provoking video to help bring the thread back onto topic.



  • #2608
    Masteroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    J C wrote: »
    This theology is very interesting ... but it is somewhat off topic ...

    ... here is an interesting proof of the intelligent design of life ... for the mathematicians amongst you ... enjoy...


    He should simply not be allowed to talk to schoolkids!

    And it was neither proof of anything but your man's ignorance and it was about as unscientific as you can get which means it's not much use to mathematicians.

    At least he didn't come right out and say that temperature and acidity have absolutely no effect on the ratio of petide to non-peptide bonds that would be produced 'by chance'.

    Remember, it wasn't one amino acid attaching to another and then another to form a chain - there were pools of soup filled with gadzillions of amino acids, balling and clumping in three dimensions. Chains would have formed in all directions, being broken, incorporated into other chains or surviving.

    All of which is occurring on a cooling planet. Combinations that were unstable in a hot climate begin to stabilize as the planet cools. Old chains break providing new raw material.

    Add a few liposomes to the mix and in no time, after millions of years, single-celled organisms.

    So, J C, after all that's been said, it is thermodynamics we have to thank for the existence of life on earth.


  • #2609
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,880 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    J C wrote: »
    Its a matter of the scale and depth of evil ... before the Flood it was almost everybody and total ... after the Flood it was only some people and partial.

    So you're arguing that god was happy doing a half assed job?


  • #2610
    Masteroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    The Concrete Doctor wrote: »
    J C wrote: »
    Unlike Humans, God didn't make anybody else pay for other peoples sins ... He paid the debt Himself in full by His atoning death.

    Wow JC, I nearly missed that little nugget of wisdom from your interesting rants. Wow, wow, wow, How can you argue so blantantly from both sides of your mouth? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that EXACTLY what he did to the little innocent kids in the flood??????

    Indeed and God promises to punish our great-grandchildren for our sins too.

    J C!

    Where did the phrase 'The children will pay for the sins of their fathers' come from?


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  • #2611
    The Concrete Doctor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭The Concrete Doctor


    J C wrote: »
    God paid the penalty for sin Himself ... and He rescued any innocent people from pre-Flood evil.

    JC, you are losing this one. You said that God did not make anybody pay for other peoples sins. That statement is wrong, not only from the evidence you like to present, that God was angry and unhappy with his creation so he killed every living thing, but in so many other ways (see the posts from Masteroid). You are just wrong about that. You can, and will, twist and turn, but there is no escaping the fact that God, quite clearly makes loads of innocent people suffer for the sins of others. The evidence is overwhelming!!!


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