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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

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Comments

  • #5042
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,724 ✭✭✭flutered


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There is help available, see Number 8 here.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2013/revenue/index.pdf

    Also even before HHC, Mortgage Interest Supplement was available to certain people.

    the people who i am talking about who are at the very bottom of the foodchain each and every euro which is clawed from their grasp is a fortune, every euro is a necesssity, people who have a reasonable income never mind the lawmakers cannot realise how badly off some people are, people are having to make decisions like their tv viewing, the repo man taking the car, or other such essentials, please do not bring bus and rail into the equation, they are not advailable or the money for the tickets is not there, as parents struggle with the cost of (free) education, does one tax a car, or buy a child a bus ticket, one has seen the cheap food fiasco of recent days, why should children have to eat scraps or worse, sold under the guise of food, why should kids have to wear cheap shoes which only last a month, then for the the next two have rain water and mud seep thro the holes in them.


  • #5043
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,724 ✭✭✭flutered


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    The Household Charge didn't, but the Property Tax does. Generally speaking, the more valuable a house you own, the better off you are. Yes, its not exact, but then neither is Income Tax, when you think about it. Someone earning €50K a year is taxed the same regardless of how big their mortgage is or how many kids they have.

    there is no provision for people living in poor conditions in basic housing in bad repair.


  • #5044
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    The Household Charge didn't, but the Property Tax does. Generally speaking, the more valuable a house you own, the better off you are.
    The majority will have a modest family home, not a million euro mansion.
    So the majority, will likely not have income taken into account if they are struggling.

    Yes, its not exact, but then neither is Income Tax, when you think about it.
    But there is a reasonable connection between income, and income tax.

    It is said by pro property tax people, that it provides a stable tax base. And why is that? Because ability to pay doesnt matter. You still pay.

    Someone earning €50K a year is taxed the same regardless of how big their mortgage is or how many kids they have.
    If their income reduces, so does their income tax bill.

    But quite how this argument equates to the point that property tax is a tax that is so crudely connected to income levels that it is in effect not, is a mystery.


  • #5045
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Property prices are still dropping, 0.5% nationwide in December. At this rate this proposed property tax is going to fall short of expected income. That three year stay on current levels maybe scrapped altogether and the 0.8% doubled.


  • #5046
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,091 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Property prices are still dropping, 0.5% nationwide in December. At this rate this proposed property tax is going to fall short of expected income. That three year stay on current levels maybe scrapped altogether and the 0.8% doubled.

    The rates are set in the legislation, 0.18% not 0.8%. I personally don't see it changing but everything is possible. What has not been remarked on much however is the facility for local authorities to vary the rate by +/- 15% from the start of 2015.

    The other side of the argument you propose is that if the NO campaign has been as successful as they claim there are 700,000 to one million unpaid charges waiting to be recovered by the Revenue. At €200 a go this would more than offset the shortfall you envisage. Anyway the valuation date is 1st May so prices can hardly fall that much between now and then.


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  • #5047
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    What has not been remarked on much however is the facility for local authorities to vary the rate by +/- 15% from the start of 2015.


    You seemed to have added in a - by mistake there.


  • #5048
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,091 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Bruthal wrote: »
    You seemed to have added in a - by mistake there.

    There are local elections next year. Standing is easy.

    http://irishballots.com/apply.html


  • #5049
    Cathyht
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭Cathyht


    DoesNotCompute wrote: »
    Yes, people working only a few hours a week, earning a very small wage may qualify for social housing, as would others on the poverty line; it's not just reserved for those on the verge of homelessness, necessarily.

    But happily, circumstances can improve after they are housed. They can find a job, full or part-time, as can their Other Half. The Council doesn't throw them out when they begin to work, it's their home. Lots of council homes were/are bought by the occupier at a hugely reduced price.

    The rent is higher when the occupants increase earnings, but still generally lower than from a private landlord. As the Health Board payments subsidise rent of social welfare recipients in private rented housing. I approve that the vulnerable in society is provided for, supported until hopefully there is an improvement in circumstances. My belief is it is a positive thing that Ireland has encouraged people to own their own home. The taxing of it, or further taxing of it, I have a problem with.


  • #5050
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There are local elections next year. Standing is easy.

    http://irishballots.com/apply.html


    standing is easy, beating the party machines that have spent 90 years tilting the game in their own favour isnt.

    what do you think of Noonans plan to allow landlords to write off their property tax? According to cso 475,000 households are rental. thats nearly one third of houses liable according to Phils figures, (quarter for the real numbers)

    where will they make up that deficit? ordinary homeowners perhaps?


    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/buytolet-investors-will-be-allowed-to-file-property-tax-as-expense-3357475.html


  • #5051
    notinmyname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭notinmyname


    I have lived and worked in South Wales for the last 8 years, were i worked in agri-services etc.

    My work provided a small and modest cottage with the job, which I had to pay the council tax on personally. [seperate from my wages]
    I considered it tough enough to set aside the £15 or so a week needed to pay the tax, but personally I thought it was not bad value for money.

    I will shortly be returning to Ireland for good, and I can honestly not see why some people have a problem paying for this charge or tax or whatever you prefer to call it over there, it seems to be alot cheaper than what I was paying in Gwent anyway.


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  • #5052
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There are local elections next year. Standing is easy.

    http://irishballots.com/apply.html

    And my opinion that any rates the local authorities have control of will go in one direction only, and your post there, are relevant how?


  • #5053
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    notinmyname wrote: »
    I have lived and worked in South Wales for the last 8 years, were i worked in agri-services etc.

    My work provided a small and modest cottage with the job, which I had to pay the council tax on personally. [seperate from my wages]
    I considered it tough enough to set aside the £15 or so a week needed to pay the tax, but personally I thought it was not bad value for money.

    I will shortly be returning to Ireland for good, and I can honestly not see why some people have a problem paying for this charge or tax or whatever you prefer to call it over there, it seems to be alot cheaper than what I was paying in Gwent anyway.

    Yea. You might find it easy here too, if someone provides a house for you.


  • #5054
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,091 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Bruthal wrote: »
    And my opinion that any rates the local authorities have control of will go in one direction only, and your post there, are relevant how?

    I saw many predictions in these threads that FG and Labour will be wiped out in these elections and CAHWT supporting parties and independents will sweep the boards. If this happens, while they won't have the power to abolish the property tax they will at least be able to reduce it by up to 15%. Pretty relevant I would say.


  • #5055
    DoesNotCompute
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭DoesNotCompute


    notinmyname wrote: »
    I have lived and worked in South Wales for the last 8 years, were i worked in agri-services etc.

    My work provided a small and modest cottage with the job, which I had to pay the council tax on personally. [seperate from my wages]
    I considered it tough enough to set aside the £15 or so a week needed to pay the tax, but personally I thought it was not bad value for money.

    I will shortly be returning to Ireland for good, and I can honestly not see why some people have a problem paying for this charge or tax or whatever you prefer to call it over there, it seems to be alot cheaper than what I was paying in Gwent anyway.

    People would make the argument that you get more value for money in terms of your Council Tax in Gwent than you would for the Property Tax in Ireland (i.e. better/more services)


  • #5056
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,091 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    standing is easy, beating the party machines that have spent 90 years tilting the game in their own favour isnt.

    what do you think of Noonans plan to allow landlords to write off their property tax? According to cso 475,000 households are rental. thats nearly one third of houses liable according to Phils figures, (quarter for the real numbers)

    where will they make up that deficit? ordinary homeowners perhaps?


    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/buytolet-investors-will-be-allowed-to-file-property-tax-as-expense-3357475.html

    This is just another story made up by the Independent as you will see if you read back through the thread. I remarked on it myself from the point of view that landlords in the North get 12.5% knocked off their rates and I wondered if Sinn Fein would campaign to get that concession for landlords here.


  • #5057
    notinmyname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭notinmyname


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Yea. You might find it easy here too, if someone provides a house for you.


    Hi Bruthal.

    I will be living in my parents old house, my mother passed away in 2011, I have a job already lined up.[thank god]

    OK, I inherited the house rather than bought one, so can not grumble about stamp duty and negative equity and so on...


    Would you/do you honestly prefer to pay for services seperately instead of a property charge?


  • #5058
    notinmyname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭notinmyname


    DoesNotCompute wrote: »
    People would make the argument that you get more value for money in terms of your Council Tax in Gwent than you would for the Property Tax in Ireland (i.e. better/more services)


    My council tax was almost £800 per year.

    What i have been seeing is prices of half that for Ireland though, so it would seem the better value to be had is at home?


  • #5059
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,330 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    notinmyname wrote: »
    Hi Bruthal.

    I will be living in my parents old house, my mother passed away in 2011, I have a job already lined up.[thank god]

    OK, I inherited the house rather than bought one, so can not grumble about stamp duty and negative equity and so on...


    Would you/do you honestly prefer to pay for services seperately instead of a property charge?

    What services are included in your property tax? Chances are we won't be getting any services in return for ours because our nation has such a huge deficit and we are in a fiscal strait jacket controlled by the troika. People already pay for rubbish collection and we will shortly be paying for water Thats why so many people oppose it. Its a short sighted view but thats the way it is here.


  • #5060
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    notinmyname wrote: »
    Hi Bruthal.

    I will be living in my parents old house, my mother passed away in 2011, I have a job already lined up.[thank god]
    Condolences on that.
    OK, I inherited the house rather than bought one, so can not grumble about stamp duty and negative equity and so on...
    Yes, there will be a much higher bias for you to see the property tax as not too much trouble, compared to many out there.
    Would you/do you honestly prefer to pay for services seperately instead of a property charge?
    We will be paying for them separately. Bin charges are separate, as are water charges when introduced.


  • #5061
    notinmyname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭notinmyname


    MadYaker wrote: »
    What services are included in your property tax? Chances we won't be getting any services in return for ours because our nation has such a huge deficit and we are in a fiscal strait jacket controlled by the troika. Thats why so many people oppose it. Its a short sighted view but thats the way it is here.


    All services provided, water seperate though.

    I buy bottled water for drinking and do the majority of my laundry and washing on site at work, so thats not an issue anyway.


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  • #5062
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    This is just another story made up by the Independent as you will see if you read back through the thread. I remarked on it myself from the point of view that landlords in the North get 12.5% knocked off their rates and I wondered if Sinn Fein would campaign to get that concession for landlords here.


    yea i saw an unsubstantiated claim earlier on, however no links to prove it, neither can i find any mention of it being untrue on the internet (bar here by a biased poster).
    they were also reporting it on radio as late as 5 pm, so its not just The Independent.


    this will basically give licence to anyone with a spare property or multiple properties to say they are for rent(whether they are or not) and claim back the property tax. FG taking care of the rich(again)


  • #5063
    notinmyname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭notinmyname


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Condolences on that.


    Yes, there will be a much higher bias for you to see the property tax as not too much trouble, compared to many out there.


    We will be paying for them separately. Bin charges are separate, as are water charges when introduced.

    Thanks for that.

    What do you mean by paying seperate though?


  • #5064
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    notinmyname wrote: »
    Thanks for that.

    What do you mean by paying seperate though?

    Property tax, bin charges, water charges, all separate.

    We are told the property tax is for services, yet we will be billed for other services.

    Also, it is possible our motor tax is a lot more expensive than over there. If we are going to compare like with like, its worth mentioning that, assuming it is actually more expensive.


  • #5065
    notinmyname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭notinmyname


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Property tax, bin charges, water charges, all separate.

    We are told the property tax is for services, yet we will be billed for other services.

    Also, it is possible our motor tax is a lot more expensive than over there. If we are going to compare like with like, its worth mentioning that, assuming it is actually more expensive.


    I drive a 10 year old diesel vw golf, TDI and the tax is £135 so expensive enough.

    I'm sorry. I seem to have lots of things that I misunderstood. Are you telling me that I have to pay for my bins as well as my property tax?
    The reason I ask is because I was of the impression that the property tax was to supercede the bin charges etc.


  • #5066
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    notinmyname wrote: »
    I drive a 10 year old diesel vw golf, TDI and the tax is £135 so expensive enough.

    I'm sorry. I seem to have lots of things that I misunderstood. Are you telling me that I have to pay for my bins as well as my property tax?
    The reason I ask is because I was of the impression that the property tax was to supercede the bin charges etc.

    yes you will also have to pay your bin charges. there is basically no change in lack of services that they previously provided out of our income tax. they are just dipping your wallet.


  • #5067
    Slick50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    MadYaker wrote: »
    No, the two are unrelated. What I was saying earlier wasn't my opinion, it was just an interpretation of some results which were carried out by economists.
    You have posted a link to demonstrate what happens in the case of non payment, ie: revenue will deduct it direct from your income... reducing your net pay.

    Whilst arguing that it is more counter productive to increase income tax, because of the psychological effect of reducing your net pay.

    And you can see no correlation here?, no contradiction?, whether the origional thesis is your own or not.
    notinmyname wrote:
    I will shortly be returning to Ireland for good, and I can honestly not see why some people have a problem paying for this charge or tax or whatever you prefer to call it over there, it seems to be alot cheaper than what I was paying in Gwent anyway.
    I have a problem with it, because when the origional tax was removed, other taxes were increased or additional taxes created to replace it, so we are still actually paying it in another guise. Secondly it is being imposed in a completely unjust manor, with no regard for ability to pay. Thirdly, and for me mostly, I feel it is morally wrong to tax the family home.


  • #5068
    notinmyname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭notinmyname


    I am sorry for the misunderstanding guys.
    I was of the belief that this proprty tax was the same as the Welsh council tax system that once paid covered all other services for the year.

    I do not wish to get bogged down in arguments from either side on this, but rightly or wrong I have not got my facts straight before writing my thoughts.
    Bit unreal that you have to pay for services and pay for a council tax on top of the services.


  • #5069
    pitkan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭pitkan


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Some of us are losing our way on this thread.
    I have been thinking of a way to keep it in focus and to generate debate that will not lead to insulting one another.

    While I have a personal reason for not paying the HHC or the Property Tax I would like to ask posters if --

    1. Would they still have a problem paying these taxes if they were convinced that the money was actually staying in the country to support and pay for services and not being used to pay for E.U. debts that are not ours?

    2. Pay these taxes if the cuts started at the top and didn't hit the services we need like nurses, garda etc

    3. The services actually were seen to improve the quality of life i.e. better roads, better water etc like in the U.K and included all the services the U.K. citizens receive.

    4. If it was affordable and was guaranteed to remain so for the next number of years.

    The answer to all four questions on my part tayto is NO.

    This is a tax too far.

    This Country is corrupt beyond redemption. People in jail over a T.V. license while Seanie Fitzpatrick appears at Garda Stations by appointment.

    It's long past the time to fight back, but, by hell, I'm going to give it my all.


  • #5070
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    notinmyname wrote: »
    I drive a 10 year old diesel vw golf, TDI and the tax is £135 so expensive enough.

    Golf tdi 1.9? That would be €160 euro there based on the £135, here it would be €710.

    Or for 3 months here, its €190, still more than your annual amount.

    Which is one of the valid points mentioned when the pro property tax posters say every other country has property tax.


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  • #5071
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    I saw many predictions in these threads that FG and Labour will be wiped out in these elections and CAHWT supporting parties and independents will sweep the boards. If this happens, while they won't have the power to abolish the property tax they will at least be able to reduce it by up to 15%. Pretty relevant I would say.

    Would you voluntarily give yourself wage cut? Please let's get real here. Stop with the party political spin.


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