Restaurant bans children...

MrCreosote · 20-01-2013 01:41AM

lounakin wrote: »

Well I'm glad I came upon this thread, now I know how uptight people are about kids and it seems you will get looks straight away and not get a chance to be welcomed in the event your kid can behave. I was looking forward to bringing my daughter to my favourite spots but I guess all we deserve is sticky plastic chairs in a food court...
I know I'm slightly exaggerating but I really get the feeling some people here act like children are an unusual problem that should be hidden or that always takes us by surprise like a snow day. There's always going to be children, get used to it.
It's also anyone's right to complain if a person or a child is being loud, but let's not judge people who may be on their last nerve and make them out to be unfit idiots who only want to shove their brats in your face.

edit: perhaps if children weren't so ignored in this society they wouldn't need to stand up and make themselves heard.

Totally agree with you that children are hated by Irish society. I used to feel similar to you, apologetic for bringing the kids out. Now I just think, f*** it if someone has an issue with them being in a cafe or restaurant, that's their problem not mine. If people want to guarantee a quiet posh meal, then hire a private chef for your house. If you are going to eat in public then you're going to have to deal with other punter, whether they are obnoxious drunk adults (the usual problem) or kids doing normal kids' things.

lazygal wrote: »

I'm surprised how many parents think everyone wants to see children coming through the door. I'm also surprised how parents think their children should be welcomed everywhere, at any time. I'm surprised how some people are a bit thick and don't realise that a small coffee shop wouldn't want half the space taken up with giant buggies when other customers can't sit down.

Nobody thinks that people should bend over backwards for kids, just that they are treated like normal members of society rather than something to be ashamed of.

StinkyMunkey · 20-01-2013 01:41AM

spookwoman wrote: »

You can ask an adult to leave or call the police if its that bad. With unruly kids try telling some parents and they take it as if the whole world is against them or it's not their fault the kids are just being kids.

Lmfao, the day i call the police because a kid is being to loud, is the day i hang up my hat in the service industry.

Its simple, you ask the parents to kindly make sure thier children behave once. If not you make a scene and run them, its worked for me (very rarely ive had to resort to this).

Now ask me how i deal with "problem" adults. Ill show you my scars.

imitation · 20-01-2013 01:47AM

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Now ask me how i deal with "problem" adults. Ill show you my scars.

Do you work in the Mos Eisley Cantina or something ?

spookwoman · 20-01-2013 01:49AM

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Lmfao, the day i call the police because a kid is being to loud, is the day i hang up my hat in the service industry.

Its simple, you ask the parents to kindly make sure thier children behave once. If not you make a scene and run them, its worked for me (very rarely ive had to resort to this).

Now ask me how i deal with "problem" adults. Ill show you my scars.

Fair bloody play to you if you can do that. But coming from staff members does make a difference. From another customer doesn't work the same.

ref adults what stopping you from calling the police yes it will take time no one is expecting you to wrestle with them.

StinkyMunkey · 20-01-2013 01:57AM

imitation wrote: »

Do you work in the Mos Eisley Cantina or something ?

Ive worked in chippers, restaurants, hotels & bars.

Ive never been threatened by a child.
Ive never been assaulted by a child (only hospitalised once).
Ive never had to clean up a childs urine.
Ive never had to clean up a childs ****e.
Ive never had to clean up after a childs "time of the month".
Ive never had a child insult my mother.
Ive never had to tell a child that he doesnt have to share his conversation with everyone in an establishment.
Ive never had to clean up a childs vomit.
Ive never had to calls the EMT's because a child needs medical assistance because of drugs.
Ive never had to clean up a childs syringe.

I could bore you with more, but ill stop there.

Sure kids can wreck my head big time, god knows my own two do sometimes.

But ill take a little screaming/high spirited child over alot of adults.

lounakin · 20-01-2013 01:57AM

Come on people, we are creatures of reason, crippled with many flaws but we can act sensibly and react adequately to individual situations... This is part of our human skills. There shouldn't be need for signs banning an entire category of people just to make us feel safe in our own little quiet world. We shouldn't be afraid to confront people and rely and pre-chewed words painted on a board.

StinkyMunkey · 20-01-2013 02:00AM

spookwoman wrote: »

Fair bloody play to you if you can do that. But coming from staff members does make a difference. From another customer doesn't work the same.

ref adults what stopping you from calling the police yes it will take time no one is expecting you to wrestle with them.

I totally agree, it is for the staff to aproach a parent if a child is misbehaving, its totally un professional to wait for a customer to do it.

Beleive me, you dont always get the chance to call the police, adults have a nasty habit of sucker punching you.

spookwoman · 20-01-2013 02:07AM

lounakin wrote: »

I don't understand the last part of your statement: 'they don't have it' what 'it' are you talking about?

Jez! If you go into a shop and they don't have what you want is what I meant.

lounakin wrote: »

I take offence at what you say, don't put all parents under the same blanket

If you read the previous post I said "There are going to be good parents with quiet kids and there will be the spawns of Satan" How is that tarring everyone with the same brush?

lounakin wrote: »

I do not expect waiters to cater to more of my whim than anyone else. If a place has a 'no kids' or a 'no buggy" sign at the door perfect even, I don't care! I don't go in. But I don't want to be discriminated against when I haven't done any harm whatsoever.

No one is saying you've done harm. Who has said that. But you seem to think you shouldn't have to queue the same as everyone else just cause you have a baby and should have all the seats in block on an airplane to yourself just cause you have a baby. Are women with babies more special than anyone else do they have extra special rights? Is that not a form of discrimination

Ref discrimination. Men cannot join curves, There are some mens clubs that don't allow women to join. So why can't a few restaurants say they don't cater for families.

imitation · 20-01-2013 02:09AM

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Ive never had to clean up after a childs "time of the month".
Ive never had a child insult my mother.
Ive never had to clean up a childs vomit.
Ive never had to calls the EMT's because a child needs medical assistance because of drugs.
Ive never had to clean up a childs syringe.

Sounds to me like a chipper at 1am, can't imagine too many children out around that time.

I'm sure alot of soldiers would like serving a child instead of getting shot at in some warzone, but it doesn't have much to do with a upmarket resturant refusing children between 1-2pm.

StinkyMunkey · 20-01-2013 02:17AM

imitation wrote: »

Sounds to me like a chipper at 1am, can't imagine too many children out around that time.

I'm sure alot of soldiers would like serving a child instead of getting shot at in some warzone, but it doesn't have much to do with a upmarket resturant refusing children between 1-2pm.

My time in a chipper was when i was alot younger.

And it has everything to do with refusing a mother and child at 1-2pm, you think adults only start misbehaving at night fall.

starlit · 20-01-2013 03:14AM

A bit outrageous if you ask me! I could understand in a boutique or a clothes shop say with expensive stuff say.

Popinjay · 20-01-2013 03:22AM

To all these people saying 'what's wrong with just being asked to leave if your child is acting up, rather than a blanket ban?'...

Can you all, with 100% honesty, put your hands on your hearts and say that if you were asked to leave a restaurant because of your child's behaviour, you'd pay for everything you'd ordered up until that point whether you'd had it served to you yet or not?

If you can't say that, and can't also speak for every other parent when you do say that, why do you expect the restaurant to carry the cost of preparing meals for you that you don't get to have because of your behaviour? (And it is your behaviour, because you can't, or quite often won't, make your child behave)

Far better for the restaurant to limit the time and ingredients wasted by having to evict people that can't control their children with an outright ban than to waste time and stock in preparing stuff that's going to have to be turfed out because little Tarquin can't shut his mouth and you won't shut it for him.

Far better for the restaurant not to have to create an even greater scene by trying to extract this money from parents, who refuse to pay, thus ruining the atmosphere for other customers who may then refuse to pay themselves because their whole evening was ruined.

Police can and will be called when an adult guest is getting turfed out and refuses to pay, would you accept the same? And should the restaurant have to do this, or run the risk of having to do this, just because you feel entitled to bring your child everywhere?

And for those who bring food for their kids... you should rightly be told to piss off. If your little angel isn't having something that the restaurant/cafe/whatever makes money from, or is even costing them (an admittedly small amout of) money, for the use of microwave or boiling water, why should their presence be accepted?

There are countless places that will accept or even encourage kids, parents should accept that there are some places that won't.

guppy · 20-01-2013 03:43AM

Popinjay wrote: »

To all these people saying 'what's wrong with just being asked to leave if your child is acting up, rather than a blanket ban?'...

Can you all, with 100% honesty, put your hands on your hearts and say that if you were asked to leave a restaurant because of your child's behaviour, you'd pay for everything you'd ordered up until that point whether you'd had it served to you yet or not?

If you can't say that, and can't also speak for every other parent when you do say that, why do you expect the restaurant to carry the cost of preparing meals for you that you don't get to have because of your behaviour? (And it is your behaviour, because you can't, or quite often won't, make your child behave)

Far better for the restaurant to limit the time and ingredients wasted by having to evict people that can't control their children with an outright ban than to waste time and stock in preparing stuff that's going to have to be turfed out because little Tarquin can't shut his mouth and you won't shut it for him.

Far better for the restaurant not to have to create an even greater scene by trying to extract this money from parents, who refuse to pay, thus ruining the atmosphere for other customers who may then refuse to pay themselves because their whole evening was ruined.

Police can and will be called when an adult guest is getting turfed out and refuses to pay, would you accept the same? And should the restaurant have to do this, or run the risk of having to do this, just because you feel entitled to bring your child everywhere?

And for those who bring food for their kids... you should rightly be told to piss off. If your little angel isn't having something that the restaurant/cafe/whatever makes money from, or is even costing them (an admittedly small amout of) money, for the use of microwave or boiling water, why should their presence be accepted?

There are countless places that will accept or even encourage kids, parents should accept that there are some places that won't.

I totally agree. I hate getting a babysitter for a night out alone only to have to listen to over-tired babies screaming the place down just because their parents won't leave them at home. It's just selfish, to the patrons and the kids.

I'm a little more tolerant at weekends in places you expect kids (our local foodie pub is one), but only to a degree. If the child is that unhappy, bring it home. Ours was a nightmare when we were out too long, so we came and left early for everyone's sake, normally we were there at opening time and gone in 40 minutes. I just don't see why my unhappy child should ruin anyone else's enjoyment of their meal.

He's older and better now, but I still don't push it. Honestly, for kids like mine, a family friendly place is the only place to be, forcing him on quiet restaurants and ignoring his protests is plain selfish.

(I don't mind well behaved and patient kids though, but mine is just not one for sitting still too long)

guppy · 20-01-2013 04:04AM

HondaSami wrote: »

Did you really do this?

I have no problem with kids in restaurants as long as they are mannerly, not necessarily quiet but not screaming the place down either.
Kids are unpredictable and can get bored easily, parents should bring something to entertain them while they eat.

Or he's remembering this guy http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/Dad-s-fury-man-tipped-beer-baby-s-head-fined/story-17094659-detail/story.html

lounakin · 20-01-2013 04:14AM

Popinjay wrote: »

To all these people saying 'what's wrong with just being asked to leave if your child is acting up, rather than a blanket ban?'...

Can you all, with 100% honesty, put your hands on your hearts and say that if you were asked to leave a restaurant because of your child's behaviour, you'd pay for everything you'd ordered up until that point whether you'd had it served to you yet or not?

If you can't say that, and can't also speak for every other parent when you do say that, why do you expect the restaurant to carry the cost of preparing meals for you that you don't get to have because of your behaviour? (And it is your behaviour, because you can't, or quite often won't, make your child behave)

Far better for the restaurant to limit the time and ingredients wasted by having to evict people that can't control their children with an outright ban than to waste time and stock in preparing stuff that's going to have to be turfed out because little Tarquin can't shut his mouth and you won't shut it for him.

Far better for the restaurant not to have to create an even greater scene by trying to extract this money from parents, who refuse to pay, thus ruining the atmosphere for other customers who may then refuse to pay themselves because their whole evening was ruined.

Police can and will be called when an adult guest is getting turfed out and refuses to pay, would you accept the same? And should the restaurant have to do this, or run the risk of having to do this, just because you feel entitled to bring your child everywhere?

And for those who bring food for their kids... you should rightly be told to piss off. If your little angel isn't having something that the restaurant/cafe/whatever makes money from, or is even costing them (an admittedly small amout of) money, for the use of microwave or boiling water, why should their presence be accepted?

There are countless places that will accept or even encourage kids, parents should accept that there are some places that won't.

If I was told to leave I would definitely leave. I'm sure I would pay and take my food in a doggy bag. In fact, this would never happen to me as I would never be in this situation. You are so full of anger, has your dining experience been ruined by kids that many times? You depict parents in such a hateful way!
As for bringing food, my baby eat 2 peas and a raspberry for lunch, should I bother the café with preparig that? Ludicrous. I've also never asked for a microwave or some boiling water.
I can tell you one thing, if you think it's normal for a waiter to come to a family's table, look at the mother pulling out a piece of apple to give to a baby and tell them to piss off, then please tell me which places you frequent so I can stay away!

Popinjay · 20-01-2013 05:02AM

lounakin wrote: »

If I was told to leave I would definitely leave. I'm sure I would pay and take my food in a doggy bag.

From what I've seen and heard, this places you very firmly in the minority. Then again, maybe others have had different experiences.

In fact, this would never happen to me as I would never be in this situation.

While this doesn't necessarily place you in the minority, the parents that do get into this situation are a very vocal minority and one such parent/family is all it can take to negatively impact on a whole restaurant's worth of customers.

You are so full of anger, has your dining experience been ruined by kids that many times? You depict parents in such a hateful way!

No anger at all, and I apologise if my tone came across as angry.

I'm not a parent but don't hate parents or children at all. My home is one of the few places, amongst my friends that don't have children, where the children of those that do are almost always welcome for parties, BBQ's, lunch, dinner, or anything else and everybody knows that. When this is happening, I try to let people know in advance that there will be kids around so that they can then decide if they want to show up or not.

The kids are generally given the freedom of the house to run around, play, etc. The only thing we do is try to discourage them from speding all their time in the same room as the grown-ups. This often means that I get to spend my night watching Barbie or Tinkerbell DVDs rather than talking to the adults I invited to my house. And I'm quite happy to have it that way. I'll look after all the kids and their parents can relax and have a few drinks and some grown up conversation.

At my house, when children are invited, the adults are expected to modify their behaviuor and language because they've been told the kids will be there and are assumed to only have turned up if they have no problem with that. Only serious misbehaviour from kids even warrants a comment.

For the times when kids aren't allowed, we always plan the event with enough time for any and every body to arrange a baby-sitter and are and have been very understanding with the odd kid showing up when baby-sitters fall through.

On the other hand, if people just want to bring their kids because they couldn't be bothered trying to organise alternative arrangements on these rare occasions when we try to have adults only nights, it's a different story.

I don't think a restaurant should be any different.

In fact, this is the very difference between a child-friendly restaurant and one that isn't and it seems fair enough to me.

Nobody that I've seen is actually arguing that kids be kept out of all restaurants, only that some spaces be kept separate from children. Many parents posting seem to agree with the idea.

I don't have a great job, I've got a mortgage, and I have two dogs, who cost around the same as two young children each month, especially since one of them is a Great Dane/Wolfhound with Hip Displaysia which will cost me upwards of 10k to properly repair. 10k that I don't have in savings, so I've already had to start scrimping on even the smallest of treats.

My PC keeps turning itself off for no reason because either the fan or power supply are knackered and I can't even afford to find out which one, let alone replace it, or get a new PC. This one is about 10 years old. They don't even make compatible mice anymore.

As you can imagine, I don't get to go out with my partner that often, and when I do, I want to make the absolute most of the experience as I can. If that means that I can go to a place where there definitely won't be kids disturbing the one romantic evening we might get for months on end, then so be it.

There are thousands of restaurants that are more than happy to have kids in them and so far, only three or four places that don't have been mentioned in this thread. I'm not aware of any myself.

What's wrong with making some places only for adults? If you're in Dublin, there's a smaller playground inside the main one in Marlay Park that's only for under 12s. I don't recall anybody over 12 ever complaining that they weren't allowed in.

As for bringing food, my baby eat 2 peas and a raspberry for lunch, should I bother the café with preparig that? Ludicrous. I've also never asked for a microwave or some boiling water.
I can tell you one thing, if you think it's normal for a waiter to come to a family's table, look at the mother pulling out a piece of apple to give to a baby and tell them to piss off, then please tell me which places you frequent so I can stay away!

If you're not feeding your kid from the menu, you're taking up space and staff time which could be spent on paying customers.

Obviously, some places decide that the family market is worth this hassle, some places seem to disagree. Technically, you're flat out not allowed to consume food on a premises that hasn't been bought there so if you're turfed out it's your own tough shit.

My parents brought me to loads of child-friendly restaurants when I was younger. I was always expected to behave myself and to eat what was put in front of me with no acting the maggot. It encouraged me to try lots of new foods and is the reason I cook such good food today. It's also the reason I know which spoon to use for what and how not to act like a general tool in public.

Sometimes though, they'd go out without me and I was ok with that too.

I'm not against kids being in any restaurant and I don't even particularly think that children should be seen and not heard. If they don't aske questions, they'll never learn, and if they're not brought to new situations, they'll never learn how to behave in them.

Sometimes though, just sometimes, it's best to leave the kids at home and let the grown-ups have their fun.

Popinjay · 20-01-2013 05:13AM

guppy wrote: »

If the child is that unhappy, bring it home.

I wouldn't force my missus, or my dogs, to hang around somewhere they were that obviously unhappy about being. Why should I force a child?

If I was tired and grumpy, I'd want to go home and wouldn't be happy about not being allowed to go home. Why do we expect children to put up with it?

Onthe3rdDay · 20-01-2013 05:50AM

The problem here is not the children, but the parents. I don't think most restaurants would mind someone bringing along children that behave themselves. Those children usually have parents that are also respectful.

On the other hand troublesome children are far more likely to have troublesome parents. Have a word with these individuals and you're looking at hassle, trouble, comments about knowing their rights and ringing Joe.

It's not fair that respectable parents and their well behaved children are included in such bans but the risk is too high for a business. Myself and most of my friends have children (or they've grown up) if we see kids in a place we're less likely to go in.

I,m reminded of a place I stayed at in the UK, I had dinner there each evening with colleagues. On the second night we were there, a loud bunch came in. They were cursing loudly but weren't abusive or obnoxious. They were asked twice by management to stay quiet or leave, they left after the second request without causing any hassle or trouble.

On the last night we were there. Parents with 2 children came in and caused absolute havoc. We left the dining area as soon as possible (food was been tossed around at that stage) and got an apology from the manager, however nothing was said to the parents. It wasn't worth the trouble.

I can easily see why an establishment would ban children as they're the one thing you can't seem to criticize in this society. You can avoid any possible trouble by not letting them on the premises in the first place.

Is that fair to decent people with decent kids? no. But sadly life isn't fair.

MrCreosote · 20-01-2013 06:19AM

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

The problem here is not the children, but the parents.

The problem isn't the children, and it isn't the parents.

The problem is some people have an unreasonable hatred of children. Their voices get a disproportionate amount of airing in Ireland. Most other countries accept the presence of children in public places as a fact of life and they seem to get along pretty well.

Popinjay · 20-01-2013 06:27AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

The problem isn't the children, and it isn't the parents.

The problem is some people have an unreasonable hatred of children.

You're dead right. This...

Parents with 2 children came in and caused absolute havoc. We left the dining area as soon as possible (food was been tossed around at that stage) and got an apology from the manager, however nothing was said to the parents.

only happened because Onthe3rdday hates kids.

Seriously???

That's one of the most deluded things I've read this week.

That happened because two dirtbags wouldn't control their children and the restaurant staff/management allowed it to continue.

You're getting your cause and effect backwards.

For example, I pissed myself laughing because your coment was idiotic. your comment wasn't idiotic because I pissed myself laughing.

MrCreosote · 20-01-2013 06:35AM

Popinjay wrote: »

You're dead right. This...

only happened because Onthe3rdday hates kids.

Seriously???

That's one of the most deluded things I've read this week.

That happened because two dirtbags wouldn't control their children and the restaurant staff/management allowed it to continue.

You're getting your cause and effect backwards.

For example, I pissed myself laughing because your coment was idiotic. your comment wasn't idiotic because I pissed myself laughing.

Oh please- one example proves nothing. Most of the time I hear tut-tutting or see eyes being cast to heaven, it's people getting worked up about normal child behaviour. Behaviour that is not offensive or annoying. It's the people who hate children and expect to be annoyed by them that have the problem in general.

If they want to have a child-free and quiet meal, then stay at home.

Popinjay · 20-01-2013 06:48AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

Oh please- one example proves nothing.

There are a lot more examples in this thread alone and I've seen many more on boards in my 5-odd years. That's not counting examples from my own life and others from out in the real world. Have you read the whole thing? How many exaples will satisfy you? I'm sure we could attempt to provide them.

I'll tell you what, you set a number and if those for having child-free places can't meet it, I'll personally concede defeat to you on everybody's behalf.

Most of the time I hear tut-tutting or see eyes being cast to heaven, it's people getting worked up about normal child behaviour.

In a fancy intimate restaurant, children shouldn't be exhibiting normal child behaviour. They should be on their best behaviour.

Behaviour that is not offensive or annoying.

To you.

It's the people who hate children and expect to be annoyed by them that have the problem in general.

I don't hate children. I still like to be able to go out without having them running around sometimes. That's not unreasonable.

If they want to have a child-free and quiet meal, then stay at home.

See now, I don't recall anybody saying 'If you want to feed your children, then do it at home'. There are countless family friendly pubs/cafes/restaurants/etc all over the place and nobody has said there shouldn't be.

Now you sound like the one with the problem and it sounds like a problem of entitlement, as has been raised as an issue with the parents of these children pages ago.

MrCreosote · 20-01-2013 07:22AM

Popinjay wrote: »

There are a lot more examples in this thread alone and I've seen many more on boards in my 5-odd years. That's not counting examples from my own life and others from out in the real world. Have you read the whole thing? How many exaples will satisfy you? I'm sure we could attempt to provide them.

It just proves my point really. The people that remember these episodes and post about the one event they remember are the cranks that just can't deal with the normal behaviour of 25% of the population. Nobody is going to post about what happens 99.9% of the time- kids sitting and eating quietly and normally. People like this expect bad behaviour and actively look for it.

Popinjay wrote: »

In a fancy intimate restaurant, children shouldn't be exhibiting normal child behaviour. They should be on their best behaviour.

This isn't about fancy intimate restaurants. This is about lunchtime 12-2pm

Popinjay wrote: »

Now you sound like the one with the problem and it sounds like a problem of entitlement, as has been raised as an issue with the parents of these children pages ago.

Actually I've no sense of entitlement at all- apart from expecting to get some food for my money and to be treated respectfully by the people who run the establishment. Your sense of entitlement extends to expecting other punters to behave exactly how you want. Well in a public place you can't demand that.

Onthe3rdDay · 20-01-2013 07:40AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

It just proves my point really. The people that remember these episodes and post about the one event they remember are the cranks that just can't deal with the normal behaviour of 25% of the population. Nobody is going to post about what happens 99.9% of the time- kids sitting and eating quietly and normally. People like this expect bad behaviour and actively look for it.

I don't expect bad behaviour and I don't actively look for it, I just told a story and all of a sudden I'm a crank. This is exactly the attitude that restaurant owners and other businesses can do without.

MrCreosote wrote: »

Actually I've no sense of entitlement at all- apart from expecting to get some food for my money and to be treated respectfully by the people who run the establishment. Your sense of entitlement extends to expecting other punters to behave exactly how you want. Well in a public place you can't demand that.

You are entitled to your point of view, The business owner is entitled not to serve you.

Popinjay · 20-01-2013 07:53AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

It just proves my point really. The people that remember these episodes and post about the one event they remember are the cranks that just can't deal with the normal behaviour of 25% of the population. Nobody is going to post about what happens 99.9% of the time- kids sitting and eating quietly and normally. People like this expect bad behaviour and actively look for it.

Except for all those people who recognise that most kids are ok, most of the time, and have posted in this thread to say so and still think that this is a good idea.

But aside from them, everybody thinks all kids are bastards. Luckily nobody who's even hinted at hlding this opinion has posted in this thread, that I recall.

Remember, this isn't about banning kids from all restaurants, just about making some restaurants kid-free.

But why let common-sense and 'what the other side are actually saying' get in the way of a good argument?

This isn't about fancy intimate restaurants. This is about lunchtime 12-2pm

No. The OP was about 12pm-2pm. The poll, and the progression of conversation in the thread have taken a wider scope. You never did say if you've actually read this thread or not. I have. Every word of it.

Actually I've no sense of entitlement at all- apart from expecting to get some food for my money and to be treated respectfully by the people who run the establishment. Your sense of entitlement extends to expecting other punters to behave exactly how you want. Well in a public place you can't demand that.

But if you want to bring your kids to these places and expect people to put up with them, you're expecting other punters to behave exactly how you want. I expect a lower standard of behaviour from kids in these places than I do from adults, but I still expect some standard of behaviour from them and I expect their parents to teach/encourage/enforce it.

As my parents did.

As the cliche goes; respect is earned, not given.

If you've demonstrated yourself to be the kind of person who can't control a 2-year-old for a few hours, or who thinks that they shouldn't have to teach their two-year-old how to behave properly, what hope have you got dealing with adults and why should I respect you?

In fact, leave your child in the restaurant and come back when you're fit for adult society yourself.

My parents managed it, I respect them. My friends with kids have managed it, I respect them. Many poster on this thread have managed it, I respect them.

If you can't win a battle of wits with a child, I don't respect you.

MrCreosote · 20-01-2013 07:58AM

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

I don't expect bad behaviour and I don't actively look for it, I just told a story and all of a sudden I'm a crank. This is exactly the attitude that restaurant owners and other businesses can do without.

Look I'm not doubting your story. You obviously met a particularly obnoxious person.

But I've met plenty of pissed up adults- obnoxious, aggressive, dirty, dangerous- at all times of the day and in all sorts of places. But I don't go around saying adults should be banned from drinking, or kept out of particular places because a tiny number of them behave badly.

MrCreosote · 20-01-2013 08:02AM

Popinjay wrote: »

But if you want to bring your kids to these places and expect people to put up with them, you're expecting other punters to behave exactly how you want. I expect a lower standard of behaviour from kids in these places than I do from adults, but I still expect some standard of behaviour from them and I expect their parents to teach/encourage/enforce it.

As my parents did.

As the cliche goes; respect is earned, not given.

If you've demonstrated yourself to be the kind of person who can't control a 2-year-old for a few hours, or who thinks that they shouldn't have to teach their two-year-old how to behave properly, what hope have you got dealing with adults and why should I respect you?

In fact, leave your child in the restaurant and come back when you're fit for adult society yourself.

My parents managed it, I respect them. My friends with kids have managed it, I respect them. Many poster on this thread have managed it, I respect them.

If you can't win a battle of wits with a child, I don't respect you.

So answer me this: Why if, as you agree, most children behave well, you're so keen to ban them based on the behaviour of a tiny minority?

Popinjay · 20-01-2013 08:05AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

...or kept out of particular places because a tiny number of them behave badly.

But adults are kept out of places where it's not appropriate for them to be, all the time. Why shouldn't children be?

MrCreosote · 20-01-2013 08:18AM

Popinjay wrote: »

But adults are kept out of places where it's not appropriate for them to be, all the time. Why shouldn't children be?

What you're saying is- "You and anyone with you are not welcome on our premises because there is a remote possibility that someone of your age will behave badly"

Try that on with any other group, gender or ethnicity and see where it gets you.

It's called prejudice and it's not pretty.

Onthe3rdDay · 20-01-2013 08:21AM

MrCreosote wrote: »

Look I'm not doubting your story. You obviously met a particularly obnoxious person.

But I've met plenty of pissed up adults- obnoxious, aggressive, dirty, dangerous- at all times of the day and in all sorts of places. But I don't go around saying adults should be banned from drinking, or kept out of particular places because a tiny number of them behave badly.

Yes, we've all met adults that misbehave, and they're usually dealt with. Words are had and they're turfed out if they don't agree to an acceptable level of behaviour. But my point is that you can't do that with kids. God forbid that you say anything about children as the parents take it as a personal insult.

Often you get good parents apologizing because a child has made a mess or is being too loud. In fact the child is doing nothing wrong and isn't interfering with anyone surrounding them. These people both big and small would be welcomed into almost any establishment.

However, it's the children that misbehave that aren't controlled by their parents that are a problem. The Children cause issues and if you say something to the parents a scene is very likely.

Are these in a minority? yes! but they're the ones that ruin days and evenings out and are the one's that are talked about.

So it's understandable that certain places avoid the hassle by banning all kids.

As for my tale, The manager said sorry to us but we don't actually know if the kids parents were obnoxious. The management just wouldn't risk approaching them because of a scene taking place. You say that kids aren't particularly liked but they appear to be the only section of society that can not be criticized under any circumstances.

Restaurant bans children...

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