Problems with Love/Hate.

TheNap · 19-12-2012 01:25PM

Nearly every Christopher i know is called Git

Happyman42 · 19-12-2012 01:35PM

TheNap wrote: »

Nearly every Christopher i know is called Git

How is it pronounced in your experience?

Bigus · 19-12-2012 01:41PM

I would have heard Gitser for christy

TheNap · 19-12-2012 01:44PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

How is it pronounced in your experience?

Are you actually serious ?

Happyman42 · 19-12-2012 01:54PM

TheNap wrote: »

Are you actually serious ?

yes

kippy · 19-12-2012 01:59PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

yes

Can I ask, what relevance any of this exchange has to do with your issues with Love/Hate?

Imhof Tank · 19-12-2012 02:06PM

kippy wrote: »

Can I ask, what relevance any of this exchange has to do with your issues with Love/Hate?

He's waiting for you to say "Gih" so he can criticise the L/H cast for pronouncing the T.

Am I right Happy?

TheNap · 19-12-2012 02:15PM

Git - It can be pronounced with the T but it rarely is . Like a lot of names in urban Dublin. Eg: Natalie , Martin etc

Happyman42 · 19-12-2012 02:15PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

He's waiting for you to say "Gih" so he can criticise the L/H cast for pronouncing the T.

Am I right Happy?

Correct, just interested in the reason they named him thus, is that alright? Watched half of the first episode there and there's a very definite 't' on the end. Maybe just non Dublin actor though. It is interesting though.
But what else did I spot in the introductory Git scenes? His wife smiling at him out the window as he tended to his pidgeons. SHe was doing it unknown to him, so not subservient or fearing, just a nice wee scene. What does that mean about the relationship, do you think, as it was very definltely cut to for a purpose.

Imhof Tank · 19-12-2012 02:20PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Correct, just interested in the reason they named him thus, is that alright? Watched half of the first episode there and there's a very definite 't' on the end. Maybe just non Dublin actor though. It is interesting though.
But what else did I spot in the introductory Git scenes? His wife smiling at him out the window as he tended to his pidgeons. SHe was doing it unknown to him, so not subservient or fearing, just a nice wee scene. What does that mean about the relationship, do you think, as it was very definltely cut to for a purpose.

Now its interesting

You have already ruled on the case my lord - it was a cheap and lazy dramatic device.

Happyman42 · 19-12-2012 02:45PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Now its interesting

You have already ruled on the case my lord - it was a cheap and lazy dramatic device.

Yes it was, and it was interesting to see if they deliberately pronounced the 't', if 'Gi' is the authentic pronunciation.
As I already said, names are extremely important to most writers and I don't believe that this name was chosen for this character lightly. My suspicions are that he was named Git for a wider audience who would have no idea of it's connection to Christopher for the same reason Dickens named his characther Scrooge.

PhiloCypher · 19-12-2012 02:49PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Totally agree, a good choice and believable name. But then Nidge is a complex and nuanced character and I think one of the things they got right and the series would be a shambles without him. He has essentially the same morals as Git and Dano but they are treated one-dimensionally, and are designed to pander to an audience that doesn't want to think, that's both a failure and a disappointment.
Carolan goes on at lenght about how he wanted to show the reality of these peoples lifes
[/I][/COLOR]
I think he failed that brief in the case of Git and Dano.

Even the very best shows have characters that are sketchily drawn and these are shows with 13 eps to play with. Love/Hate has 6 , the simple fact is for every character in the show to be as nuanced as you would like they would need twice that maybe more ,so perhaps rather then complain about the expediencies the writers have been forced into you should complain to the RTE or whoever finances it about not stumping up enough cash for more episodes.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'll have to watch it again, to me it was definatley a two way street (with her beng reluctant not repulsed, which is different) in the first two meetings. But the major point in relation to that was the way in which her character was used to illuminate aspects of the males, which was a problem with all the female characters.

I'm as flabbergasted as everyone else as to how you came to this conclusion , she was definitely repulsed, tbh I'd have thought the fact that your opinion is so wildy divergent from popular opinion on this matter that you would have admitted you'd likely misread things but nope, it's like as if you feel if you concede to this one thing you will be seen as fallible and the whole house of cards will come crashing down around you .

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think you are also projecting a good bit here. There's a difference between ambiguity and confused writing. All the men in the cast liked to drink heavily and do copious drugs and commit and glorify in violence, yet only the RA men, pathologically hate their wives and neglect and are violent to their children, you'd wonder how they end up with partners at all their genes are so ****ed up? Could Dano not even have had a fish to show some of his humanity? Oh yes he got to show his humanity with the pidgeons before he couldn't deny his paramilitary genes and went on a rampage of bird murder :rolleyes:

lol @ you accusing other people of projecting/having preconceptions , aren't you the guy who said Darren is too boyband to be a killer , if that's not projecting/having preconceived notions of what a person of a certain attractiveness is capable of I don't know what is.

glic71rods46t0 · 19-12-2012 03:00PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'll have to watch it again, to me it was definatley a two way street (with her beng reluctant not repulsed, which is different) in the first two meetings. But the major point in relation to that was the way in which her character was used to illuminate aspects of the males, which was a problem with all the female characters.

Oh dear me. If you came away from that show thinking Georgina was anything but repulsed by Nidge then you don't have a clue about the show and your opinion on other matters to do with the show shouldn't be argued with - just ignored.
Go home Happyman, you're drunk:D

Imhof Tank · 19-12-2012 03:00PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes it was, and it was interesting to see if they deliberately pronounced the 't', if 'Gi' is the authentic pronunciation.
As I already said, names are extremely important to most writers and I don't believe that this name was chosen for this character lightly. My suspicions are that he was named Git for a wider audience who would have no idea of it's connection to Christopher for the same reason Dickens named his characther Scrooge.

Well I'll say this - whatever their motivation they have succeeded in getting you to spend your time watching and re-watching episodes with a fine tooth comb listening out for silent Ts, surveying web strangers on their knowledge of Dublin slang, hoping to make an obscure point about a miniscule aspect of the show. Joycean scholars wouldnt go as deeply into the subtext as you are now doing.

How can you say the script is one dimensional when you have had to go into such detail on the origins and received pronunciation of "Gih"?

Happyman42 · 19-12-2012 03:16PM

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Even the very best shows have characters that are sketchily drawn and these are shows with 13 eps to play with. Love/Hate has 6 , the simple fact is for every character in the show to be as nuanced as you would like they would need twice that maybe more ,so perhaps rather then complain about the expediencies the writers have been forced into you should complain to the RTE or whoever finances it about not stumping up enough cash for more episodes.

Hardly sketchy characters are they, Dano particularly saying as the season centred around him.
It's disappointing that they didn't make him a more nunaced character is all I am saying, it would have given the whole thing a much greater depth and impact.

I'm as flabbergasted as everyone else as to how you came to this conclusion , she was definitely repulsed, tbh I'd have thought the fact that your opinion is so wildy divergent from popular opinion on this matter that you would have admitted you'd likely misread things but nope, it's like as if you feel if you concede to this one thing you will be seen as fallible and the whole house of cards will come crashing down around you .

Absolutley not willing to concede this point, go to 30 mins approx into the first episode, the first scene with Georgina and Nidge, here is what she says while both of them are smiling shyily and akwardly at each other for a protracted period,
'Nidge: Are you alright?'
'Georgina: Yeh, yeh, I'll just roll him on his side so he doesn't choke or vomit, but, there's always a chance that he will...if I say the prayers.
More embarassed smiling and laughing.
No replusion, no ambiguity, only classic attraction between them.

I'll watch the second meeting later but if memory serves me we didn't see any replusion until the bar scene when Tommy drove her home.

lol @ you accusing other people of projecting/having preconceptions , aren't you the guy who said Darren is too boyband to be a killer , if that's not projecting/having preconceived notions of what a person of a certain attractiveness is capable of I don't know what is.

Sheehan hasn't the range as an actor for the part as so many people have said. Of course a gangland figure can look attractive, I do think this actor was chozen because of how he looked however as it was quite evident that they wanted him to be liked right up to the last deliberately poignant ending, the seagull soaring over the city etc etc.
That is fine as an intent by the way, I don't have a problem with that in story telling, it just didn't work.

p.s. No I wasn't the guy who said he was 'too boyband to be a killer', although a lot did say that.

Happyman42 · 19-12-2012 03:58PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Well I'll say this - whatever their motivation they have succeeded in getting you to spend your time watching and re-watching episodes with a fine tooth comb listening out for silent Ts, surveying web strangers on their knowledge of Dublin slang, hoping to make an obscure point about a miniscule aspect of the show. Joycean scholars wouldnt go as deeply into the subtext as you are now doing.

How can you say the script is one dimensional when you have had to go into such detail on the origins and received pronunciation of "Gih"?

I don't like being on dodgy ground while I'm debating something, forgive me if I check stuff. Didn't take long to see how Nidge pronounced Git, and I agreed a long time ago that it was a minor point, others seemed to take issue with it and miss the substantive point about the stereotyping that was going on in the show.

Mardy Bum · 19-12-2012 04:04PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Joycean scholars wouldnt go as deeply into the subtext as you are now doing.

How can you say the script is one dimensional when you have had to go into such detail on the origins and received pronunciation of "Gih"?

Don't compare him with a Joycean scholar it will only inflate his ego more. Its like arguing with an automated machine, there is very little reason to continue after you say your piece.

Big Game · 19-12-2012 04:20PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes it was, and it was interesting to see if they deliberately pronounced the 't', if 'Gi' is the authentic pronunciation.
As I already said, names are extremely important to most writers and I don't believe that this name was chosen for this character lightly. My suspicions are that he was named Git for a wider audience who would have no idea of it's connection to Christopher for the same reason Dickens named his characther Scrooge.

Christopher Forrester and Christy Fagan who played for Bohs the season before last and St Pats last season are known as Git and Gito with the T's pronounced any time I've heard then discussed. I imagine Gito may just have been used to differentiate between the two due to them being team mates, I have heard Fagan called Git as well as Gito. There's plenty of references to their nicknames in media reports if you look.

Happy, how many scripts have Rte and /or Octagon rejected on you, your posts literally drip with bitterness which utterly overshadows any reasonable points you make.....

And the use of Scrooge to describe a miser came into use due to Dickens use of it, not the other way round. He misread a tombstone with the name Scroggie or some similar variation to get the name.

Happyman42 · 19-12-2012 04:40PM

Big Game wrote: »

Christopher Forrester and Christy Fagan who played for Bohs the season before last and St Pats last season are known as Git and Gito with the T's pronounced any time I've heard then discussed. I imagine Gito may just have been used to differentiate between the two due to them being team mates, I have heard Fagan called Git as well as Gito. There's plenty of references to their nicknames in media reports if you look.

Can we accept that I now know that Git is an abbreviation of Christopher in parts of Dublin? I won't respond to anbody quoting other instances again, it might speed things up.
The fact never did or will change my point; that the name was chosen deliberatly to emphasise the stereotype that Git was.

Happy, how many scripts have Rte and /or Octagon rejected on you, your posts literally drip with bitterness which utterly overshadows any reasonable points you make.....

None rejected, I was at pains in the OP to outline what this thread was about, and the significance I attached to my problems with Lov/Hate, please re-read it. It isn't my fault that people seem to be getting upset.

And the use of Scrooge to describe a miser came into use due to Dickens use of it, not the other way round. He misread a tombstone with the name Scroggie or some similar variation to get the name.

That is true, but Dickens frequently and brilliantly chose names that subconciously further illuminated his characthers. eg. M'Choakumchild, Pecksnip, Pumblechook, Mr Sloppy, Thomas Gradgrind etc. It was because it was a brilliantly and apt sounding choice that Scrooge became a common name for a miser.

PhiloCypher · 19-12-2012 04:51PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Hardly sketchy characters are they, Dano particularly saying as the season centred around him.
It's disappointing that they didn't make him a more nunaced character is all I am saying, it would have given the whole thing a much greater depth and impact.

The problem as i see it is that A) you have an unrealistic expectation of how well developed character can be in a 6 episode season and

have preconceived( yes you are as much guilty of it as everyone else) notion of what the family life and drinking habits or Ra members are .

Happyman42 wrote: »

Absolutley not willing to concede this point, go to 30 mins approx into the first episode, the first scene with Georgina and Nidge, here is what she says while both of them are smiling shyily and akwardly at each other for a protracted period,
'Nidge: Are you alright?'
'Georgina: Yeh, yeh, I'll just roll him on his side so he doesn't choke or vomit, but, there's always a chance that he will...if I say the prayers.
More embarassed smiling and laughing.
No replusion, no ambiguity, only classic attraction between them.

I'll watch the second meeting later but if memory serves me we didn't see any replusion until the bar scene when Tommy drove her home.

What you call classic attraction I and pretty much everyone else call awkward small talk , whatever Nidges intentions are she is in no way flirting with him, that you think she is suggests you may be a bit clueless where women are concerned. I'd be curious to know have you actually found anyone privately or on the internet that agrees with you on this point ? (bonus points if that person is female)

Happyman42 wrote: »

Sheehan hasn't the range as an actor for the part as so many people have said. Of course a gangland figure can look attractive, I do think this actor was chozen because of how he looked however as it was quite evident that they wanted him to be liked right up to the last deliberately poignant ending, the seagull soaring over the city etc etc.
That is fine as an intent by the way, I don't have a problem with that in story telling, it just didn't work.

p.s. No I wasn't the guy who said he was 'too boyband to be a killer', although a lot did say that.

Doesn't matter why he was chosen for the part or how good/bad an actor he is the fact is you have asserted previously that and I quote " it has it's roots in the initial dishonesty of wanting a sexy and attractive lead. Style won out out content. It was evident that they wanted us to 'like' this character but because he wasn't a true portrayal of somebody in that situation they had problems all the way through the 3 series making his actions and reactions credible " I bolded the important part "true portrayal of somebody in that situation" in other words you don't buy him as a killer because he's "a sexy and attractive lead".

Big Game · 19-12-2012 05:01PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Can we accept that I now know that Git is an abbreviation of Christopher in parts of Dublin? I won't respond to anbody quoting other instances again, it might speed things up.
The fact never did or will change my point; that the name was chosen deliberatly to emphasise the stereotype that Git was.

None rejected, I was at pains in the OP to outline what this thread was about, and the significance I attached to my problems with Lov/Hate, please re-read it. It isn't my fault that people seem to be getting upset.

That is true, but Dickens frequently and brilliantly chose names that subconciously further illuminated his characthers. eg. M'Choakumchild, Pecksnip, Pumblechook, Mr Sloppy, Thomas Gradgrind etc.

My point about Git was in relation to your later bugbear about the pronunciation of it.

I'd suggest people get upset because a lot of your points get out across in a smug patronising manner and you consistently refuse to provide a benchmark for people to measure your standards against. It leaves your arguments with no context as most of them could be leveled against every tv show in history.

If you accept that the word Scrooge only exists due to Dickens misreading of a tombstone then it totally contradicts your point that Git was chosen by Carolan in the same manner. Listing off a list of Dickens characters to show how well up on him you are doesn't change that contradiction. It was nearly 50 years after A Christmas Carol was published that the word came into common parlance, how is that relevant to whether the derogatory meaning of Git inspired its use in love hate?

glic71rods46t0 · 19-12-2012 05:01PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Can we accept that I now know that Git is an abbreviation of Christopher in parts of Dublin? I won't respond to anbody quoting other instances again, it might speed things up.
The fact never did or will change my point; that the name was chosen deliberatly to emphasise the stereotype that Git was.

So you're here to pontificate rather than debate the issue and nothing that anyone else says will change your opinion DESPITE the fact that until your preconceived view on the name was challenged on this thread you didn't even know that the name is a common substitute for a common christian name in parts of Dublin where this drama depicts???? You are losing on almost every single point you raised in this thread. Your inability to accept you're wrong on this point has destroyed your credibility

Happyman42 · 19-12-2012 05:12PM

PhiloCypher wrote: »

The problem as i see it is that A) you have an unrealistic expectation of how well developed character can be in a 6 episode season and have preconceived( yes you are as much guilty of it as everyone else) notion of what the family life and drinking habits or Ra members are .

I don't think it is unrealistic to ask that a major character be a little better drawn than a default stereotype. Especially when Carolan asserts that he wants to show that these families are just like every other family.
To me it is no accident that the series has been criticised for pandering to middle class pre-conceptions when you see writing like this.

What you call classic attraction I and pretty much everyone else call awkward small talk , whatever Nidges intentions are she is in no way flirting with him, that you think she is suggests you may be a bit clueless where women are concerned. I'd be curious to know have you actually found anyone privately or on the internet that agrees with you on this point ? (bonus points if that person is female)

Have you looked at their initial meeting again? There is no replusion on Georgina's part. We'll wait and see if anybody else agrees.

Doesn't matter why he was chosen for the part or how good/bad an actor he is the fact is you have asserted previously that and I quote " it has it's roots in the initial dishonesty of wanting a sexy and attractive lead. Style won out out content. It was evident that they wanted us to 'like' this character but because he wasn't a true portrayal of somebody in that situation they had problems all the way through the 3 series making his actions and reactions credible " I bolded the important part "true portrayal of somebody in that situation" in other words you don't buy him as a killer because he's "a sexy and attractive lead".

He wasn't a true protrayal (by the writer) as a character. I didn't buy him at all, not just as a killer.

Happyman42 · 19-12-2012 05:17PM

Big Game wrote: »

I'd suggest people get upset because a lot of your points get out across in a smug patronising manner and you consistently refuse to provide a benchmark for people to measure your standards against. It leaves your arguments with no context as most of them could be leveled against every tv show in history.

You are speaking to someone who has been patronised, called a traitor to Ireland, called to be on all levels of intelligence etc just for having an opinion on obvious problems with a TV show.
The show stands on it's own, I have no intention of diverting a thread into a discussion of my likes and dislikes outside of it.

If you accept that the word Scrooge only exists due to Dickens misreading of a tombstone then it totally contradicts your point that Git was chosen by Carolan in the same manner. Listing off a list of Dickens characters to show how well up on him you are doesn't change that contradiction. It was nearly 50 years after A Christmas Carol was published that the word came into common parlance, how is that relevant to whether the derogatory meaning of Git inspired its use in love hate?

Well, my intelligence must be suspect, for I can make no sense of that. Come again.

P_1 · 19-12-2012 05:17PM

Great show in fairness but my main gripe with it is the lack of realism in the locations of the scenes.

Example 1: In season 2 it was mentioned that Aido lived in North Wall, Darren making it from the Gibson Hotel to Aido's flat so quickly in the latest episode would highlight that. Why though was Aido's flat filmed deep in Dublin 8 (Darren's frequent wanders up Meath Street highlight this)?

Example 2: Nidge's trip to Dundalk. Aside from the shots of the Boyne Bridge no other venue in County Louth appears. The hotel was near Liffey Valley, the house was in Blanch and the garage is off the N7.

Probably won't mean anything to anyone not from Dublin or Louth but still a slight irritant.

Big Game · 19-12-2012 05:24PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Have you looked at their initial meeting again? There is no replusion on Georgina's part. We'll wait and see if anybody else agrees.

Would need to watch again but I agree there was no revulsion at their first meeting. Nidge was being the nice guy and they'd never met before so it was just a little awkward. Wouldn't call it major flirting though. By the second meeting Nidge was being a bit more of a sleaze and you could see she wasn't impressed. He was trying way too hard to get her out to the party, it was obvious. By the time they were in the nightclub she was obviously repulsed by him.

I don't see anything unrealistic in that chain of events?

Big Game · 19-12-2012 05:36PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Well, my intelligence must be suspect, for I can make no sense of that. Come again.

Agreed. I'll make it simple for you so.

You said "My suspicions are that he was named Git for a wider audiencewho would have no idea of it's connection to Christopher for the same reason Dickens named his characther Scrooge."

I'm assuming you meant that you suspect that Carolan named his character 'Git' as he was a bit of a git?

Therefore it's also fair to assume that you're saying that Dickens named his character 'Scrooge' as he was a bit of a scrooge (ie) a miser? That's the only meaning I can take from your above sentence.

The problem is that the expression scrooge (to refer to someone who's mean or miserly) didn't exist when Dickens was naming his character and only came into existence BECAUSE Dickens chose it. The reason he chose the word was becuase he misread a tombstone of someone called Scroggie who had been a 'meal man' by trade as being a 'mean man' called Scrooge. So how does that have any relevance to why Carolan chose 'Git' for his characters name?

That clear or am I missing something?

Happyman42 · 19-12-2012 05:46PM

Big Game wrote: »

Agreed. I'll make it simple for you so.

You said "My suspicions are that he was named Git for a wider audiencewho would have no idea of it's connection to Christopher for the same reason Dickens named his characther Scrooge."

I'm assuming you meant that you suspect that Carolan named his character 'Git' as he was a bit of a git?

Therefore it's also fair to assume that you're saying that Dickens named his character 'Scrooge' as he was a bit of a scrooge (ie) a miser? That's the only meaning I can take from your above sentence.

The problem is that the expression scrooge (to refer to someone who's mean or miserly) didn't exist when Dickens was naming his character and only came into existence BECAUSE Dickens chose it. The reason he chose the word was becuase he misread a tombstone of someone called Scroggie who had been a 'meal man' by trade as being a 'mean man' called Scrooge. So how does that have any relevance to why Carolan chose 'Git' for his characters name?

That clear or am I missing something?

I think you are missing something, something about what I meant anyway.
You are right, I think he was named Git because of the word's other connotations and because of it's sound, as I said before you wouldn't name a 'romantic lead' that. That is also why I was interested in it's authentic pronunciation and how it was used in the show,
The Scrooge analogy was because Dickens did that all the time, matched sounds to the type of character he was describing. Please don't get hung up on it, it's not that important to the general point.

Big Game · 19-12-2012 06:00PM

[Quote/] Happyman42;82302709]

I think you are missing something, something about what I meant anyway.
You are right, I think he was named Git because of the word's other connotations and because of it's sound, as I said before you wouldn't name a 'romantic lead' that. That is also why I was interested in it's authentic pronunciation and how it was used in the show,
The Scrooge analogy was because Dickens did that all the time, matched sounds to the type of character he was describing. Please don't get hung up on it, it's not that important to the general point.[/Quote]

Maybe it's not but it is symptomatic of the BS you tend to peddle.

I don't think I'm missing anything personally, it's just more deflection, as seems to be your MO anytime anyone pulls you up on anything.

Hitchens · 19-12-2012 06:04PM

I think we're getting into 'hanging chad' territory at this stage in the thread!

Problems with Love/Hate.

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