Gun control in the USA

magicbastarder · 18-12-2012 10:16AM

anyway, as noted elsewhere this morning. kinder eggs are banned in the states because they are dangerous and a hazard to children.

Mark Hamill · 18-12-2012 10:38AM

MadsL wrote: »

So the US has produced 10% fewer 'standard' rampage killers than Europe? Thanks for confirming that.

So just 20% more school attacks in the US.

Well, finally we get to an overwhelming figure. Five times as many incidents.

But lets add up the number of incidents:
US 89+18+20 = 127 incidents
Europe 99+15+4 = 104 incidents

So just over 20% more likely to have an incident than Europe, not the skewed result you are claiming. You understand why your "number of deaths" weighting is as absurd as counting the number of passengers killed in plane crashes when assessing an airline's safety record.

Wow, being on the A&A forum, I've seen some really forced misinterpretations of posts, but this level, if honest, would have to imply that you are both illiterate and innumerate. Seeing as i specifically explains the maths in plain English. My last paragraph specifically explains that the number of incidents of all types, when corrected for the fact that the US has just over a third the population of Europe, is much higher than Europe.

To just make sure you understand, the US has 2.5 TIMES as many rampage incidents (so 150% more than Europe), 3.3 TIMES as many school based incidents (230% more than Europe) and 13.75 TIMES as many workplace incidents (1275% more than Europe).

Also, seeing as a lot of posters are arguing that gun control will also make rampagers less effective at killing, pointing the higher number of deaths (higher, even when we account for the higher number of incidents in the US) is relevant.

MadsL wrote: »

I see you missed showing your working there, half-mark.

I copied the tables into excel, deleted the non US countries and just added the number of deaths and counted the number of incidents. Europe has ~2.75 the population of the US, so you multiply the number of US incidents to compare to Europe stats. I assumed that was obvious. My mistake.
I'm on my phone now, I can throw up the excel sheet this evening, if you really need the help with your maths.

magicbastarder · 18-12-2012 11:27AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

anyway, as noted elsewhere this morning. kinder eggs are banned in the states because they are dangerous and a hazard to children.

as one friend suggested, maybe they should start putting miniature self-assembly assault rifles inside the eggs; that'd really give the lawmakers a headache.

MagicMarker · 18-12-2012 12:56PM

As norrie rugger has ignored my question, maybe someone else would care to provide an answer.

Should guns be easily accessible in Ireland, with no restrictions in place on the type of guns allowed? Should I have the ability to go to my local Spar/B&Q or just any specialized gun shop and be able to buy a high calibre semi-automatic weapon? Even if I have to wait a few days for a "background check"?

I'm assuming all those in the "guns aren't the problem" camp would be more than happy for this to happen?

Hivemind187 · 18-12-2012 01:11PM

Unbelieveable the level of magical thinking from the "atheists". Lost a lot of respect for the so-called "critical thinkers" here.

Seems that when it's something emotionally charged, there is a awful tendency to let yourselves sink into the same reactionary, irrational hyperbole as the theists.

kippy · 18-12-2012 01:19PM

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Unbelieveable the level of magical thinking from the "atheists". Lost a lot of respect for the so-called "critical thinkers" here.

Seems that when it's something emotionally charged, there is a awful tendency to let yourselves sink into the same reactionary, irrational hyperbole as the theists.

Which side are you referring to?

robindch · 18-12-2012 01:31PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Should guns be easily accessible in Ireland, with no restrictions in place on the type of guns allowed?

Reminds me of an incident in the Siberian city of Omsk during the summer. Snowflake and I were walking back home from a typically unhelpful, unfriendly meeting with a tedious minor bureaucrat, when we rounded a building corner and almost walked straight into a large, swaggering, sweaty, stoned-to-the-sky skinhead waving a heavy revolver unsteadily around his head. Luckily, I was jabbering in Russian at the time and that and whatever drugs he was on may have helped him fail to notice that at least one of us was foreign -- a risk factor anywhere near Russian skinheads. So ignored him as best one can and he carried on and didn't look back. Unfortunately, I didn't have an option at the time of collecting our things and leaving on the next train out of town, going anywhere.

While in theory, Russia has a similar rate of gun ownership to Ireland, and in theory, has stricter gun ownership rules than the USA, its annual rate of around 15 murders per 100,000 is around four times the US rate. That's assuming of course, one trusts what the Russian government says. It's far more likely that laws are bribed around or simply ignored and the gun ownership and murder rate statistics noted here are fabrications -- the real figures likely being multiples of what's reported.

robindch · 18-12-2012 01:33PM

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Unbelieveable the level of magical thinking from the "atheists". Lost a lot of respect for the so-called "critical thinkers" here.

Would you like to clarify what exactly you're talking about?

Bannasidhe · 18-12-2012 02:11PM

robindch wrote: »

Would you like to clarify what exactly you're talking about?

Seemed to me to a pointless dig (much like a previous comment re: leftys)- only difference is not sure at whom but given the remark about 'emotional responses' I would hazard a guess...

Bannasidhe · 18-12-2012 02:17PM

Well, we know what happened.

It had nothing to do with mental health or availability of guns:

Mass shootings because schools teach evolution and ‘how to be a homo’

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/17/tennessee-pastor-mass-shootings-because-schools-teach-evolution-and-how-to-be-a-homo/

Wow -imagine finding yourself arguing on the same side of the ideological spectrum as the likes of Pastor Sam Morris...:eek:

We’re going to see more of this,” he continued. “Because notice, the first thing in America we start yelling about is gun control is gun control. Have you noticed that? Gun control. No one’s even thought about the fact that these shootings only happened at places where guns are banned. Have you noticed that? They have never had a mass shooting at a gun show, where you can find over a thousand loaded guns at one time.”

Galvasean · 18-12-2012 02:21PM

I find it hard to believe that someone could interprate Magic Marker's statistical breakdown or any of Oldrnwsrs' contributions as "irrational hyperbole".

MrPudding · 18-12-2012 02:27PM

nagirrac wrote: »

2. The second is the media and how they sensationalize these cases. Before further gun control laws there should be a law that makes identifying such killers illegal and any media outlet breaking the law should be shut down. The safety of broader society should trump free speech in this type of occurance. You have to ask the question why does someone who has decided to kill themselves also decide to take out a large number of people with them. As suggested in intelligent articles by Roger Ebert and others after years of being a "nobody" to society they want to be a "somebody".

So, to summarise, fcuk the 1st Amendment but don't you dare touch the 2nd. Got it.

MrP

robindch · 18-12-2012 02:39PM

Big-god-and-jesus-man Sam Morris wrote:

They have never had a mass shooting at a gun show, where you can find over a thousand loaded guns at one time.

Somehow, I'm reminded of those gun-toting weddings that go wrong when somebody pulls out their weapon, fires a shot or two, and before you know it, people are lying dead everywhere:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/10/2012103192352586941.html
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d76_1253730318
http://dawn.com/2012/04/30/trading-bullets-in-a-gun-friendly-nation/

etc, etc, etc.

Bannasidhe · 18-12-2012 02:41PM

robindch wrote: »

Somehow, I'm reminded of those gun-toting weddings that go wrong when somebody pulls out their weapon, fires a shot or two, and before you know it, people are lying dead everywhere:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/10/2012103192352586941.html
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d76_1253730318
http://dawn.com/2012/04/30/trading-bullets-in-a-gun-friendly-nation/

etc, etc, etc.

Where at least half the guests would describe themselves as 'straight shooting kinda guys.'

robindch · 18-12-2012 02:43PM

^^^ NSFW, BTW.

MagicMarker · 18-12-2012 02:59PM

Galvasean wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that someone could interprate Magic Marker's statistical breakdown or any of Oldrnwsrs' contributions as "irrational hyperbole".

As much as I'd love to take credit, that was robindch & Mark Hamill.

Galvasean · 18-12-2012 03:18PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

As much as I'd love to take credit, that was robindch & Mark Hamill.

Apologies I often confuse the two of you. Get some shiny sigs or something!

As for the claims that gun shows are safe...
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2011/01/father_testifie.html

MagicMarker · 18-12-2012 03:44PM

robindch wrote: »

Somehow, I'm reminded of those gun-toting weddings that go wrong when somebody pulls out their weapon, fires a shot or two, and before you know it, people are lying dead everywhere:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/10/2012103192352586941.html
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d76_1253730318
http://dawn.com/2012/04/30/trading-bullets-in-a-gun-friendly-nation/

etc, etc, etc.

Let's not forget when even under supervision things still go horribly wrong. I recall the case of an 8 year old accidentally shooting himself in the head with a mini uzi submachine gun.

The man who had organised the gun show was a former Police Chief and, unbelievably, the person who was in charge of allowing people to use such guns was a 15 year old boy who did not have a machine gun license and was not a certified instructor. The police chief has since been acquitted of all charges.

The father of course blames everyone but himself, as the 15 year old warned him that the gun was too powerful for an 8 year old, but the father persisted.

edit: Damn Galvasean beat me to it, note to self, hit reply before going to get some food next time.

Galvasean · 18-12-2012 03:50PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

The father of course blames everyone but himself, as the 15 year old warned him that the gun was too powerful for an 8 year old, but the father persisted.

Why would he believe the kid? Sure, everybody knows guns = safety.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taih2zUOmIM

Witcher · 18-12-2012 03:57PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

The father of course blames everyone but himself, as the 15 year old warned him that the gun was too powerful for an 8 year old, but the father persisted.

Range officer should have stood his ground but given that he was 15 arguing with adults he was probably unsure of himself, it doesn't matter what people on a firing line want they do what the range officer says or fcuk off.

robindch · 18-12-2012 04:02PM

Galvasean wrote: »

As for the claims that gun shows are safe...

...waits for somebody to claim that the gun was legally held so restrictions wouldn't have prevented yet another needless death.

Bannasidhe · 18-12-2012 04:05PM

robindch wrote: »

...waits for somebody to claim that the gun was legally held so restrictions wouldn't have prevented yet another needless death.

Restrictions such as basic common sense?

8 year old + machine gun = very, very bad idea.

rockonollie · 18-12-2012 04:09PM

Blay wrote: »

Nearly every firearms owner in the US has an 'assault rifle'

That's a ridiculous generalization........what's your evidence to support this?

I own a firearm, my neighbours owns firearms, my inlaws own firearms......I can give you a sample of 6 households, non of which have assault rifles.

rockonollie · 18-12-2012 04:16PM

Also, it's worth pointing out, as a counter argument to the unwavering supporters of the "right to bear arms", when that' right was put in writing, an experienced person with a gun could shoot and get off a second shot about 30 seconds later......now you can fire 50-60 shots in that time.

Witcher · 18-12-2012 04:18PM

rockonollie wrote: »

That's a ridiculous generalization........what's your evidence to support this?

I own a firearm, my neighbours owns firearms, my inlaws own firearms......I can give you a sample of 6 households, non of which have assault rifles.

You're picking me up wrong there. I don't mean they own actual assault rifles i.e. select fire rifles. If you look at my post you will see ' ' <--- these. By 'assault rifle'(once again in quotation marks as you can see) I mean any of the rifles which people are demonising at the moment. I was referring to popularity of the AR15 and other S/A rifles in the US which people here understand to be 'assault rifles' which they clearly are not.

rockonollie · 18-12-2012 04:23PM

Blay wrote: »

You're picking me up wrong there. I don't mean they own actual assault rifles i.e. select fire rifles. If you look at my post you will see ' ' <--- these. By 'assault rifle'(once again in quotation marks as you can see) I mean any of the rifles which people are demonising at the moment. I was referring to popularity of the AR15 in the US which people here understand to be an 'assault rifle' which it clearly is not.

Even miscategorizing rifles like the AR-15, meaning any rifle with rapid fire capabilities.....it's still an inaccurate statement ot say that most owners of firearms in the US have them.

Most households I know that have firearms have regular hunting rifles, shotguns or handguns......I only know 1 person that owns an "assault" style rifle.

Witcher · 18-12-2012 04:30PM

rockonollie wrote: »

Even miscategorizing rifles like the AR-15, meaning any rifle with rapid fire capabilities.....it's still an inaccurate statement ot say that most owners of firearms in the US have them.

Most households I know that have firearms have regular hunting rifles, shotguns or handguns......I only know 1 person that owns an "assault" style rifle.

I won't get into a debate with you over it, poor choice of words, the AR15 and other s/a rifles are still extremely common in the US and it would be a hard task to recover them all which is what I was staing in that post.

nagirrac · 18-12-2012 04:39PM

MrPudding wrote: »

So, to summarise, fcuk the 1st Amendment but don't you dare touch the 2nd. Got it.

MrP

Yes, in this instance fcuk the first amendment. Stop making cult heroes out of mass killers and inspiring copycat killings.
The 2nd amendment is harder to tackle. The answer imo is removing access to assault type weapons, responsible gun ownership and more effective controls on gun ownership. Thats the best you can hope for in the US.

rockonollie · 18-12-2012 04:39PM

Moving on.........

The logistics would be a nightmare, and I honestly can't think of a way to do it, but I do think that these Assault style rifles should not be available to the general public, and this may be the only ban that would pass through congress (I can't see them every having the support to pass a complete ban)

The main reason behind the right to own weapons in the US, is the ability to protect yourself and your family. If somebody is breaking into your house, you don't need a weapon that fires 20-30 rounds in 15 seconds.........a well placed single shot from a handgun would do the job just fine.

Witcher · 18-12-2012 04:50PM

I think a visual explanation of the last Assault Weapons Ban in the US would be useful here;

This is a AR15 that you can buy in the US right now, if you pass a background check etc;

This is an AR15 you could buy under the Federal Assault Weapons Ban which Bill Clinton implemented;

It functions in the same manner as the one above it, the larger magazines were restricted for new sales during the ban but you could still purchase existing ones privately. If Obama signs a new ban, it's likely that the rifle in the bottom picture will still be available for sale from a dealer...that was what made the Clinton ban ridiculous...the only difference in those two rifles is that the stock doesn't collapse, there's no flash hider or bayonet lug...the rifles still functions the same, so if Obama signed a ban which was basically a copy of the Clinton version then s/a rifles like these would still be out there.

Gun control in the USA

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