Feminist mob attempt to shut down talk on equality for males - MOD NOTE POST 10

awec · 12-12-2012 10:38AM

This post has been deleted.

gozunda · 12-12-2012 10:56AM

Tbh I see a bunch of deranged students protesting at what they perceive as a controversial speaker

Imo men's rights should be advocated alongside women's - I believe it's called equality.

If woman advocating for their rights are feminists - Are men advocating for their rights - menminists? Is there an actual term?

To be honest I don't see the group in the video as feminists at all. - more like your usual mob up for a riot.

lechiennoir · 12-12-2012 11:08AM

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh I see a bunch of deranged students protesting at what they perceive as a controversial speaker

Imo men's rights should be advocated alongside women's - I believe it's called equality.

If woman advocating for their rights are feminists - Are men advocating for their rights - menminists? Is there an actual term?

To be honest I don't see the group in the video as feminists at all. - more like your usual mob up for a riot.

Men advocating for their rights are just called MRAs - Men's Right Advocates/Activists, just as the "movement" is called the MRM - Men's Rights Movement.

But feminism has tarred both MRA and MRM as hate speech and a hate movement because to them, men's rights = hate speech, support of rape and the oppression of the all important female.

Madam_X · 12-12-2012 12:20PM

lechiennoir wrote: »

That, my friends, is the face of feminism.

No it isn't. Because lots of feminists are moderate. The term is far far broader than you like to think it is. So there are crazy women like in the vid who hate men and you therefore decide ALL feminists are like that? Seriously?

I hope this goes viral, I hope feminism becomes a bigger target for hatred than it already is and I hope we see society fight back against these cretins.

Wow, so you want any woman at all with feminist views (again, this does not automatically mean she is opposed to equality of men) to be a target of hatred?

Hurricane Carter wrote: »

I'm really glad that's happened.

Bet you are

despite being so outraged by it! Shur stuff like this is great - gives you a stick to beat women who agree with any feminist ideology at all with.

Hopefully the world will see what the true face of feminism really is

Well that's not it. There is no one true face, because the ideology is so broad, for example some feminists are opposed to porn, others are very much in favour of it.
The loons are on the fringes - much as you like to pretend they're mainstream.

Hurricane Carter wrote: »

Because I've yet to see feminists want actual equality.

Doesnt mean they dont exist.

Lechiennoir told jaffacakesyum she is "proud" of man-hating feminists and that feminists are the ones propagating the notion that children aren't safe if alone with a man, even though it's hugely women who aren't a bit feminist, and men who believe everything the Sun says, who are the ones who gleefully believe that. Very provocative, inflammatory stuff. A bit sinister tbh.

ahnowbrowncow · 12-12-2012 01:44PM

Madam_X wrote: »

Lechiennoir told jaffacakesyum she is "proud" of man-hating feminists and that feminists are the ones propagating the notion that children aren't safe if alone with a man, even though it's hugely women who aren't a bit feminist, and men who believe everything the Sun says, who are the ones who gleefully believe that. Very provocative, inflammatory stuff. A bit sinister tbh.

Really?

Madam_X · 12-12-2012 02:08PM

Absolutely! The paedo suspicion hysteria is the preserve of very right-wing, knee-jerk, Daily Fail-reading types. Hardly a feminist leaning demographic!

The "it's anti men so it must therefore be the spawn of feminism" type mindset is exceptionally naive and simplistic. Another example: when it comes to backslapping and high fiving and "no big deal" if a man or boy is sexually assaulted/abused by a woman... it ain't women doing the above.

Just as issues faced by women aren't always caused by men, the reverse applies too.

Reku · 12-12-2012 02:25PM

Unfortunately Madam_X what you need to be aware of is that feminism is suffering the same problem all groups do, if you don't condemn the actions of your members you are seen to be condoning/supporting them.
How often does all of Islam get blamed for what a couple of f*ckwits get up to?

Feminism has too long been an easy hiding place for those whose only interest is in hating men and so has built up quote a base of such f*ckwits to drag the rest of them down. Feminism has become to misandrists what the Catholic church was to paedophiles, and until a concerted effort is made to purge themselves of this element the problem of the whole being blamed for the actions of a part of it will continue to plague them.

There are a few decent feminist groups who have disputed the claims of other groups but they are either too few or just seldom speak loud enough to be heard.

It also doesn't help when they are often viewed as largely self-serving groups, more concerned with the problems of those in their membership than worse problems suffered by women elsewhere.

awec · 12-12-2012 02:28PM

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Reku · 12-12-2012 02:38PM

awec wrote: »

I'm sure there are plenty of valid, reasoned feminist groups out there, they are just going to struggle to be heard over the more outspoken ones.

And until they succeed and clearly differentiate themselves from the mob they will continue to be perceived as no-different to what people consider the stereotype.

iptba · 12-12-2012 02:43PM

Reku wrote: »

It also doesn't help when they are often viewed as largely self-serving groups, more concerned with the problems of those in their membership than worse problems suffered by women elsewhere.

Although I have a bit of a problem with the argument that because women in country X are treated in such-and-such a way, this proves that women in Ireland have it worse/similar.

lechiennoir · 12-12-2012 02:47PM

awec wrote: »

I'm sure there are plenty of valid, reasoned feminist groups out there, they are just going to struggle to be heard over the more outspoken ones.

Feminism, from the get go, has been male-hate orientated. The past leaders of what is feminism today, such as Catherine MacKinnon, were little more than male hating misandrists.

These previous misandric leaders have built a movement that today is male-hatred to its very core and is hugely detrimental to society as we know it.

Although, one should note, "feminism" isn't taken very seriously any more, not least by most women. It's just that "feminism" is very loud, sensationalist and very, very accusatory, so it tends to be noticed.

norrie rugger · 12-12-2012 02:57PM

Why can't we all just get along?

the_syco · 12-12-2012 03:00PM

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

Techinically most men I know could even be described as feminists. They want equal rights for men and women.

lechiennoir wrote: »

I am extremely anti-feminist, however I'm absolutely pro-equality and pro-men's rights. Not one of these is conflicting either.

You can only be extreme for one side, the other, or equal rights. You can't be extreme for any two, as you won't see the conflict.

IMO, in the broader sense you cannot be a feminism and for equality, but you can be for equality and feminism. Although feminism does want equality on issues, equality is 50-50 (even if both sides end up being screwed over), whereas feminism is what's best for women.

Zulu · 12-12-2012 03:00PM

Reku wrote: »

Unfortunately Madam_X what you need to be aware of is that feminism is suffering the same problem all groups do, if you don't condemn the actions of your members you are seen to be condoning/supporting them.
How often does all of Islam get blamed for what a couple of f*ckwits get up to?

Feminism has too long been an easy hiding place for those whose only interest is in hating men and so has built up quote a base of such f*ckwits to drag the rest of them down. Feminism has become to misandrists what the Catholic church was to paedophiles, and until a concerted effort is made to purge themselves of this element the problem of the whole being blamed for the actions of a part of it will continue to plague them.

There are a few decent feminist groups who have disputed the claims of other groups but they are either too few or just seldom speak loud enough to be heard.

It also doesn't help when they are often viewed as largely self-serving groups, more concerned with the problems of those in their membership than worse problems suffered by women elsewhere.

Brilliant post Reku, very well put. Kudos.

Zulu · 12-12-2012 03:02PM

the_syco wrote: »

IMO, in the broader sense you cannot be a feminism and for equality, but you can be for equality and feminism. Although feminism does want equality on issues, equality is 50-50 (even if both sides end up being screwed over), whereas feminism is what's best for women.

And this is the problem I have with feminism as an egalitarian. I suspect I'm not the only one.

awec · 12-12-2012 03:19PM

This post has been deleted.

LeeHoffmann · 12-12-2012 04:11PM

Although feminism does want equality on issues, equality is 50-50 (even if both sides end up being screwed over), whereas feminism is what's best for women.

I see feminism and masculinism as wanting equality but focusing on what they see as the obstacles to achieving equality for the side they represent. I don´t see feminism as meaning what´s best for women. Likewise I don´t see masculinism as being what´s best for men. In this sense, I´d see myself as being both feminist and masculinist and see no contradiction there. I also have never been part of a feminist/masculinist lobby group etc. I just subscribe to the ideology that both genders suffer from gender-based inequality and prejudice, and I´m committed to countering such inequality and prejudice in my own little life.

I agree with most of what´s been said on this thread already (apart from one poster). I don´t think many people would wish to ally themselves with the people in the video or their methods. The thing is - anybody can slap a label on themselves and claim to represent that group - or just be taken to represent that group. It reminds me a little of the IRA and their tactics - bombing and killing in the name of the Irish people. What I see in that video is a mob of both men and women being generally aggressive and abusive in the name of women/feminists. Just like the IRA, they don´t represent me

Star Lord · 12-12-2012 05:54PM

Reku wrote: »

...until a concerted effort is made to purge themselves of this element the problem of the whole being blamed for the actions of a part of it will continue to plague them.

Therein lies a massive problem. How can those that support feminism prevent others from saying that is what they support? You can't prevent anyone from identifying themselves as part of a larger group, when it's not some strictly run members-only type affair. That is why further descriptive terms tend to be tagged on, such as "militant" feminists.

Also, I concur with LeeHoffmann, male rights adovocacy, feminism and equality are not mutually exclusive. Being an advocate for male or female rights does not mean campaigning for male/female superiority. Just for their rights. And the rights should be equal. It'll never be 100%, as there will always be some things that men/women are more inclined to, such as manual labour, or childcare, and paternal leave will probably never be equal to maternal leave, but I don't see these things as equality issues.

Madam_X · 12-12-2012 09:25PM

Reku wrote: »

Unfortunately Madam_X what you need to be aware of is that feminism is suffering the same problem all groups do, if you don't condemn the actions of your members you are seen to be condoning/supporting them.
How often does all of Islam get blamed for what a couple of f*ckwits get up to?

Feminism has too long been an easy hiding place for those whose only interest is in hating men and so has built up quote a base of such f*ckwits to drag the rest of them down. Feminism has become to misandrists what the Catholic church was to paedophiles, and until a concerted effort is made to purge themselves of this element the problem of the whole being blamed for the actions of a part of it will continue to plague them.

There are a few decent feminist groups who have disputed the claims of other groups but they are either too few or just seldom speak loud enough to be heard.

It also doesn't help when they are often viewed as largely self-serving groups, more concerned with the problems of those in their membership than worse problems suffered by women elsewhere.

awec wrote: »

The more extreme, militant feminists will always be heard the most. They get more airtime because their views are more newsworthy, and are more likely to get viewers or sell papers.

I'm sure there are plenty of valid, reasoned feminist groups out there, they are just going to struggle to be heard over the more outspoken ones.

Reku wrote: »

And until they succeed and clearly differentiate themselves from the mob they will continue to be perceived as no-different to what people consider the stereotype.

The thing about this though, is that it's surely agreed by anyone with a sense of fairness that "islam = terrorism" and "catholic priests = child abusers" is a terribly wrong way to think. Not trying to martyr feminists but it is the same logic. You say yourself Reku that youre aware of feminists who condemn the ones who are hostile to men.
I agree though that women here cannot be compared to women in e.g. Pakistan in terms of how things are for them, but to say feminism had its roots in man-hating is a rather frightening way to think. It has its roots in getting the vote, education and increased job prospects for women - the hatred of men simply for being men (unfortunately) came after.

And just like Islamic extremists get held up by islamophobes as what islam can be, the paedophile priests get held up by sectarian people and bigoted militant atheists as what the catholic church had/has in its ranks, so too do these loons (definitely not representative of all feminists) get held up by those with a questionable agenda towards any feminist, or even any forthright woman. It's plain to see from a (thankfully small) element on this thread.

It scares me tbh - and just as feminism is the sanctuary for man-haters, it's likely the very valid cause of men's rights will be hijacked by misogynists. And to object to their hostility being deemed as "feminism" (by those who think feminism is only a bad thing; as if you have to be a feminist to object to misogyny) and worse still... misandry. And the cycle of division will continue sadly. Even though the original intention of the men's rights movement are very much not to hate women.

donfers · 12-12-2012 11:48PM

Madam_X wrote: »

The thing about this though, is that it's surely agreed by anyone with a sense of fairness that "islam = terrorism" and "catholic priests = child abusers" is a terribly wrong way to think. Not trying to martyr feminists but it is the same logic. You say yourself Reku that youre aware of feminists who condemn the ones who are hostile to men.
I agree though that women here cannot be compared to women in e.g. Pakistan in terms of how things are for them, but to say feminism had its roots in man-hating is a rather frightening way to think. It has its roots in getting the vote, education and increased job prospects for women - the hatred of men simply for being men (unfortunately) came after.

And just like Islamic extremists get held up by islamophobes as what islam can be, the paedophile priests get held up by sectarian people and bigoted militant atheists as what the catholic church had/has in its ranks, so too do these loons (definitely not representative of all feminists) get held up by those with a questionable agenda towards any feminist, or even any forthright woman. It's plain to see from a (thankfully small) element on this thread.

It scares me tbh - and just as feminism is the sanctuary for man-haters, it's likely the very valid cause of men's rights will be hijacked by misogynists. And to object to their hostility being deemed as "feminism" (by those who think feminism is only a bad thing; as if you have to be a feminist to object to misogyny) and worse still... misandry. And the cycle of division will continue sadly. Even though the original intention of the men's rights movement are very much not to hate women.

the cycle of division is unfortunately perpetuated by feminism

i think the point that you miss is not so much that the people in this thread are saying the loons in the video represent feminism, rather that they represent a more radical, extreme form of feminism which unfortunately is more prevalent than you seem to think

further, they grow more and more emboldened as too few dare to challenge them simply because anybody who does will be instantly labelled as being anti-women

further, in order to stop these hateful mobs spouting bile while masquerading as some kind of revolutionary crusaders, comforted by the fact that they can use modern day McCarthyite tactics to smear anybody who opposes them - well, we need more of the moderate types to speak out against them, unfortunately there is no real significant or effective effort from the so-called moderate face of feminism to silence the nutjobs

finally, in the western world, men and women have equal opportunities in almost every conceivable regard, it's grating to see western educated liberals (a genuine liberal is supposed to be tolerant and understanding - why is it that the self-professed liberals are quite often the most intolerant and angry) engage in ever more hateful and dishonest debate while those women who are genuinely suffering and genuinely lacking in opportunity are all but forgotten - to think these guys are all gathering to stop a mens rights advocate give a speech and shout abuse at those who enter - is that really what their movement amounts to? Couldn't that time have been better spent organising fund-raisers or lobbying politicians about the situation in Saudi Arabia. Afghanistan etc.? Nah, they prefer to hurl bile at a guy whose two friends recently committed suicide and block him from entering the building, the feminists you speak of who campaigned for the vote, education, job prospects must be so proud!

Zulu · 13-12-2012 09:19AM

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I see feminism and masculinism as wanting equality but focusing on what they see as the obstacles to achieving equality for the side they represent.

You may well be right, but if you are it'll never happen. It's only a pretense. You can't seriously strive for equality by only looking at one side of the equation; by only representing one side of the equation.

Personally, I don't believe they are trying to achieving equality anymore. They certainly don't sound like they are. They don't look like they are. They don't walk like they are.

If it sounds like a duck; looks like a duck; walks like a duck...

I don´t see feminism as meaning what´s best for women. Likewise I don´t see masculinism as being what´s best for men. In this sense, I´d see myself as being both feminist and masculinist and see no contradiction there.

I suspect you are eager to avoid the use of labels, but what you are describing seems similar enough to how I'd look at things. I describe myself as an egalitarian however, as I don't see how either masculinist or feminist can represent true equality without considering the other sex.

To me it's tantamount to some sort of White nationalism group hiding behind the pretense of equality by protecting their own races' interests. There is no room for elitism in equality.

I also have never been part of a feminist/masculinist lobby group etc. I just subscribe to the ideology that both genders suffer from gender-based inequality and prejudice, and I´m committed to countering such inequality and prejudice in my own little life.

They really, (at risk of labeling you against your will) you are an egalitarian.

The thing is - anybody can slap a label on themselves and claim to represent that group - or just be taken to represent that group.

This is true, but until the group rallies against this "agent provocateur" it will increasingly grow and consume the voice of the whole.

I understand the feminism has "many different flavors" but if you take a moment to consider which of these flavors seeks out men and with what message, and which groups do nothing to address it, how do you expect society to view the whole?

fanki na pengin · 13-12-2012 09:22AM

Scrap the term 'feminist' and substitute with 'pro-equality'?

Zulu · 13-12-2012 09:28AM

Madam_X wrote: »

The thing about this though, is that it's surely agreed by anyone with a sense of fairness that "islam = terrorism" and "catholic priests = child abusers" is a terribly wrong way to think.

Of course it is, but life isn't fair. And continuing with that train of thought, how do we react to a church that does nothing to correct/condemn the child abusers?

You say yourself Reku that youre aware of feminists who condemn the ones who are hostile to men.

You yourself are one, are you not Madam_X? However your efforts appear to be in vain, for you (and others like you) are failing to marginalise these "extremest" groups. Whatever actions you are taking don't appear to be working. That said, are you taking any actions? or simply "complaining about it on the internet" - a comment often leveled at men who speak up on the internet.

but to say feminism had its roots in man-hating is a rather frightening way to think.

I have to agree with this. Unless the poster has evidence to the contrary, then to accuse the original suffragettes of being man haters is a simple, lazy, slur.

It scares me tbh - and just as feminism is the sanctuary for man-haters, it's likely the very valid cause of men's rights will be hijacked by misogynists.

Which is exactly the flaw I see in both efforts. The only solution I see is in a unity. An egalitarian effort. It's quite simple - equality for all. (Not equality for men/equality for women...)

And the cycle of division will continue sadly. Even though the original intention of the men's rights movement are very much not to hate women.

I have to agree.

Zulu · 13-12-2012 09:30AM

fanki na pengin wrote: »

Scrap the term 'feminist' and substitute with 'pro-equality'?

No, it's not a relabeling we need. We need a change in ideology.

fanki na pengin · 13-12-2012 09:31AM

Apologies, it was a bit of a flippant remark, and probably not needed in this thread.

fanki na pengin · 13-12-2012 09:35AM

Plus I may have been imbibing a wee bit.

¬_¬

Reku · 13-12-2012 10:33AM

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

Therein lies a massive problem. How can those that support feminism prevent others from saying that is what they support? You can't prevent anyone from identifying themselves as part of a larger group, when it's not some strictly run members-only type affair. That is why further descriptive terms tend to be tagged on, such as "militant" feminists.

They can't, all the more reasonable element can do is make sure that they actively discredit those in the group who depend upon hatred, lies and propaganda, so when the moderates say something that is true and reasonable people will take note.

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

Also, I concur with LeeHoffmann, male rights adovocacy, feminism and equality are not mutually exclusive. Being an advocate for male or female rights does not mean campaigning for male/female superiority. Just for their rights. And the rights should be equal. It'll never be 100%, as there will always be some things that men/women are more inclined to, such as manual labour, or childcare, and paternal leave will probably never be equal to maternal leave, but I don't see these things as equality issues.

Unfortunately, as shown by the video in the OP's post, there is a not insignificant number of feminists who see any mention of rights for or discrimination against men as being anti-women. Another video worth looking at might be the one from the UK where a lad was suing the university over the strong feminist agenda of the gender studies course, you will hear wonderful quotes from the females he interviews such as:
"Men are never discriminated against".:rolleyes:
This outlook turns the entire thing into a conflict instead of a mutual compromise.

Madam_X wrote: »

The thing about this though, is that it's surely agreed by anyone with a sense of fairness that "islam = terrorism" and "catholic priests = child abusers" is a terribly wrong way to think. Not trying to martyr feminists but it is the same logic. You say yourself Reku that youre aware of feminists who condemn the ones who are hostile to men.

However that sort of simplification is exactly how the human mind tends to operate, it's the entire basis of stereotypes. Our minds are lazy and so you can either cross your fingers that all those lazy brains out there will stop being lazy (unlikely:() or you can put in that extra mile yourself and ensure even the lazy brain has an easy time recognizing that you are not to be grouped in with the rest.

Madam_X wrote: »

I agree though that women here cannot be compared to women in e.g. Pakistan in terms of how things are for them, but to say feminism had its roots in man-hating is a rather frightening way to think. It has its roots in getting the vote, education and increased job prospects for women - the hatred of men simply for being men (unfortunately) came after.

Though I don't agree with a lot of his generalisations I think lechiennoir may have had a point here, if you have a group who broadly feel the same who are they going to elect leaders except those among the most extreme, because they will simply seem like the ones who will get the job done.:(
Loath as I am to feed Godwin's rule: this thinking would be how Hitler got as high up as he did; "we all hate the jews, this guy really hates them, he'll solve the problem".:( (again I blame our innate laziness)

Madam_X wrote: »

And just like Islamic extremists get held up by islamophobes as what islam can be, the paedophile priests get held up by sectarian people and bigoted militant atheists as what the catholic church had/has in its ranks, so too do these loons (definitely not representative of all feminists) get held up by those with a questionable agenda towards any feminist, or even any forthright woman. It's plain to see from a (thankfully small) element on this thread.

Sadly while I'm aware of the good elements of the feminist movement, I've personally encountered more of the negative element, can always hope one day they'll snap out of it but as long as they have their "sisters in arms" affirming that they are right in their thinking I doubt it will happen. While you (the moderates) can try to discourage that element I doubt you can do much to make them re-evaluate their stance since they at times seem cult-ish in that any questioning of their "faith" is met with hostility and they have a remarkable knack of only seeing and hearing what they want to.

Madam_X wrote: »

It scares me tbh - and just as feminism is the sanctuary for man-haters, it's likely the very valid cause of men's rights will be hijacked by misogynists. And to object to their hostility being deemed as "feminism" (by those who think feminism is only a bad thing; as if you have to be a feminist to object to misogyny) and worse still... misandry. And the cycle of division will continue sadly. Even though the original intention of the men's rights movement are very much not to hate women.

Indeed, I try to keep a quote circling in my head most of the time:
"to the left, to the right,
we will fight to the death"
sadly it often seems to sum up our behavior when we encounter that which is different. I'm definitely prone to letting myself get too worked up over things and then running along with the blinkers on.:(

iptba · 13-12-2012 02:29PM

I hope people who are egalitarians will actually do something. I've been listening to people who thought the gender movement was unbalanced i.e. only focused on women, for 20 years or so, who'd say they thought there was an imbalance but did nothing.

py2006 · 13-12-2012 04:35PM

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

Feminism = The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

On paper yes, but not always in practice unfortunately.

py2006 · 13-12-2012 04:49PM

The term Feminism has such negative connotations nowadays. You only have to read through this thread and various others in the past to see how people feel about the movement.

Yes the mission statement or slogan may have wonderfully positive egalitarian philosophies associated with it and yes there are plenty of well meaning and right-thinking ladies who declare themselves feminists. However, there would be appear to be a lot of untoward and deluded advocates who give the whole movement a really bad name.

A lot of men (and women) feel genuinely aggrieved, offended or disillusioned by the element associated with this movement and unfortunately this is largely dismissed on here and society as unacceptable.

Feminist mob attempt to shut down talk on equality for males - MOD NOTE POST 10

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