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[Panel Comparisons] Siemens vs HKC 1070

  • 19-06-2012 06:00PM
    #1
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    This is the first of a couple of threads where debate on the differences between panels will take place.
    There are too many threads descending into the same arguments over & over . From now on people asking for information on upgrading etc can be given information and then referred to these threads. If there is something interesting it will be moved to here.
    In addition to the charter the rules for these threads are as follows:
    The debate is only on the panels mentioned above. Other threads for other panels will follow. Bringing other systems into the discussion will be considered off topic and will result in infractions.
    Debate is fine but in a constructive manner . If you want to debate the pros & cons please answer any questions put to you regarding what you post.
    Trolling will not be permitted in any form & will result in infractions or a ban from this thread or the forum if deemed necessary.
    If there is an issue with any post use the report post function. Do not derail thread with these issues.


Comments

  • #2
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    These are by far the 2 most popular panels on the market at the moment.
    The HKC panels are hybrid .You can use both wired & wireless devices.
    The Siemens Panels come in 3 ranges, SPC4000
    , SPC 5000 and SPC 6000
    The main difference on these 3 panels is capacity.
    4000 up to 32 zones
    5000 up to 128 zones
    6000 up to 256 zones
    Expanders can be analysed or non analysed to save on cost.
    These panels are also hybrid .You can use both wired & wireless devices.
    All panels come with a built in web browser.
    All panels can have IP for full remote access from any browser or access via iPhone/iPad app SPC Anywhere.
    When using IP dynamic IPs are catered for via SPC Secure
    All panels can have wireless.
    SiWay wireless is one way with an expected device battery life of 5 years.
    SiWay devices are cheaper than HKC
    SIWay do not have wireless inertia sensors,
    All panels can control external devices via X10 control & via mapping gates
    These devices can be controlled via individual calendars and/or cause & effect from any device /system input or out put.
    All panels can be grade 2 or grade 3.
    All panels can have multiple areas.

    The HKC 1070
    Has 10 hardwired zones on board and can expand to 70 wired zones fully expanded . This can go up to 106 if using HKC ID sensors.
    This panel has 2 way wireless . This means the panel is able to tell the devices when it is setting & they need to transmit alarm events. This is said to save battery life . Whether this will be more than 5 years of the Siemens , I don't know.
    HKC Wireless devices are dearer than SiWay
    2 way devices also allow the ability to have secure key fobs which require code entry on the fob to disarm the system.
    The HKC 1070 is Grade 2.
    All HKC expanders are analysed .
    The HKC 1070 also has areas


  • #3
    Thunderbird2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭Thunderbird2


    HKC systems
    SW-10/70 10 on board zones expandable to 70 . 106 with ID sensors
    SW-20/70 20 on board zones expandable to 70 . 106 with ID sensors
    SW-20/200 20 on board zone expandable to 200. 306 with ID sensors
    Hybrid panels can use wired and wireless 2-way technology
    Voice capability for zone information and comunications E.g voice dialler
    Point ID - zones 5,6,7 & 8 support 10 ID devices, 5 power supplies and 5 output cards each.
    Panel outputs 3,4 & 5 have 300 mA resettable fuses
    Supports 8 keypads on high speed buses
    64 user codes ( up to six digits) with programmable user descriptions
    Up to 64 keyfobs can be mapped onto users
    Up to 70 RF detectors Can be mapped to zones 200 with SW20/20
    Optional proximity keypad RKPX
    Panel has built in RF indicator
    Wireless sensors- RF contact- inertia sensor, Quad PIR, smoke detector, Heat detector, CO sensor, Panic Button ,Internal siren , external Sabb, Keyfob, Rf repeater .
    Wired zones - all analysed , programable wire types Non EOL , DUAl EOL , Single EOL
    Smart lights feature . Ability to control lights with relays via timers or by sensor / alarm activation or by arming/ disarming with user codes. Also controlled with RF fob
    Smart doors. Ability to control door locks/ automation with relays via timers/sensors/ alarm activation or by arming / disarming with user codes


  • #4
    Thunderbird2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭Thunderbird2


    HKC new products
    LAN card : remote access via Internet .
    Rf panic
    Rf keypad with voice and prox tag option.
    GSM / arm / disarm , check status ect.
    Rf bells with built in jam detect .


  • #5
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    LAN card is not yet available.Expected up to mid next year.


  • #6
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    To add to Siemens features. iPhone & iPad app available now, SPC Anywhere .
    Gives you full control of the alarm system.
    The ability to handle multiple sites.
    Full access to detailed logs.
    The ability to switch multiple device via outputs/mapping gates.
    The ability to map zones onto floor plans
    The ability to view IP cameras added to your alarm.
    Currently testing Android app which is expected in the new year.


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  • #7
    Thunderbird2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭Thunderbird2


    The iPhone app has been out for months . I have it on demo mode :-) impressed I must say


  • #8
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Thunderbird2 wrote: »
    The iPhone app has been out for months . I have it on demo mode :-) impressed I must say

    It is , especially now the way it handles dynamic IPs via the portal.
    The Android one is looking good as well.


  • #9
    Plex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10 ✭Plex


    Hi There..

    Do you have any contacts for the supply of the alarms mentioned in this thread?

    (Apologies if this information has already been given)

    Cheers.
    Plex


  • #10
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    REW
    RWL
    Northwood Technology
    Borsatec

    Their contact details are in the suppliers sticky.


  • #11
    markireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭markireland


    Looking at the specs here the Siemens seems to be superior to the hkc. I say this as I note that ip and remote access seems to be built imto the Siemens skc. Also the skc is expandable to video etc and can Se top/ip to view remotely.

    I saw that the hkc central box and keypad are about 250. Is the Siemens vastly more expensive?

    Just. My thoughts


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  • #12
    Thunderbird2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭Thunderbird2


    €170 for the panel and keypad .


  • #13
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    markireland wrote: »
    Looking at the specs here the Siemens seems to be superior to the hkc. I say this as I note that ip and remote access seems to be built imto the Siemens skc. Also the skc is expandable to video etc and can Se top/ip to view remotely.

    I saw that the hkc central box and keypad are about 250. Is the Siemens vastly more expensive?

    Just. My thoughts

    There is not a vast difference if you buy the Siemens in kit form as well.


  • #14
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,592 ✭✭✭cerastes


    I think this is the most appropriate thread
    With the HKC 1070, is this the most up to date domestic panel HKC do?

    Ive seen securewatch and securewave mentioned, I can see this is mentioned as a hybrid, are they wired and wireless respectively and does this mean a hybrid of both these? I heard securewatch mentioned on another thread as outdated? just wondering why.

    Is GSM included on current 1070 panels? I looked at the HKC website and there seems to different GSM cards available, are these upgraded to whats fitted or is anything fitted as standard now, do they all do the same thing? I cant see the aerial on the

    Im thinking of swapping this or maybe the siemens panel for my existing panel myself as the inability to reset it when away is a bit of a concern. If adding gsm or other extras to the HKC (such as expander cards) adds up to a similar cost, I might consider the siemens if it is viable as a diy.
    Are the installation/programming instructions for either panel straight forward for someone with some electrical/electronics experience?

    I'm presuming most of my other existing components are standard and would be suitable for reuse in the HKC1070 or Siemens?, but Im a bit uncertain about the external bell being compatible or still useable, if it is, can the battery in it be replaced as its been there a good few years?


  • #15
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    cerastes wrote: »
    I think this is the most appropriate thread
    With the HKC 1070, is this the most up to date domestic panel HKC do?

    It is along with the Quantum.
    cerastes wrote: »
    Ive seen securewatch and securewave mentioned, I can see this is mentioned as a hybrid, are they wired and wireless respectively and does this mean a hybrid of both these?
    A hybrid panel is a panel which can have both wired & wireless zones.
    cerastes wrote: »
    I heard securewatch mentioned on another thread as outdated? just wondering why.
    Its around a long time . Early to mid nineties.
    cerastes wrote: »
    Is GSM included on current 1070 panels? I looked at the HKC website and there seems to different GSM cards available, are these upgraded to whats fitted or is anything fitted as standard now, do they all do the same thing? I cant see the aerial on the
    GSMs are an add on to the standard panels.
    cerastes wrote: »
    Im thinking of swapping this or maybe the siemens panel for my existing panel myself as the inability to reset it when away is a bit of a concern. If adding gsm or other extras to the HKC (such as expander cards) adds up to a similar cost, I might consider the siemens if it is viable as a diy.
    Are the installation/programming instructions for either panel straight forward for someone with some electrical/electronics experience?

    Yes. The Siemes is the easier option IMO with the ability to programme from a PC via web browser, Via SPC Pro or via the Fast Programmer.
    cerastes wrote: »
    I'm presuming most of my other existing components are standard and would be suitable for reuse in the HKC1070 or Siemens?, but Im a bit uncertain about the external bell being compatible or still useable, if it is, can the battery in it be replaced as its been there a good few years?

    All global parts would be compatible. What system have you at the moment?


  • #16
    LillySV
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,746 ✭✭✭LillySV


    hi guys,

    from what ye are saying it sound like the siemens system is slightly better...where can i pick one up though? Im assuming the Siemens SPC 4000 would be sufficient for my house but cant see where to buy one? I would also like to know if the wireless option is safe or is this there a strong chance that the signal could be interferred with externally, making the alarm redundant?

    (P.s im sorry if i sound stupid but when it comes to alarms and related technology..i really am! :D)


  • #17
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    The Siemens is the better panel IMO.
    They are available in some of the suppliers listed here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055956748
    Where are you located?

    Wireless is secure & can not be blocked or tampered with,
    If your looking for a wireless panel it the SPC4221
    If you want IP as well its SPC4320 . This does not come with internal wireless so you would need a keypad receiver or an external wireless gateway.


  • #18
    LillySV
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,746 ✭✭✭LillySV


    KoolKid wrote: »
    The Siemens is the better panel IMO.
    They are available in some of the suppliers listed here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055956748
    Where are you located?

    Wireless is secure & can not be blocked or tampered with,
    If your looking for a wireless panel it the SPC4221
    If you want IP as well its SPC4320 . This does not come with internal wireless so you would need a keypad receiver or an external wireless gateway.

    Thanks for that , I live in Galway city. When u say ip do you mean access to alarm through Internet? Would you have a rough idea of how much this system would cost? How much would the receiver or gateway cost roughly also?

    Thanks


  • #19
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Yes the IP panel is the one with a web server on board. It's accessible from the Internet and via apps.
    You will need to shop around suppliers re prices. They vvary a lot and some do different kits which include keypads and fobs etc.


  • #20
    jRoy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24 ✭jRoy


    Hi all,
    I am still trying to get an alarm installed and every installer I've talked to don't want to install Siemens with reasons varying from "difficult to maintain" to "not suitable for homes"

    For 5 windows, 3 doors, 2 PIRs, 2 fobs and GSM::
    HKC 1070 was quoted ~€1000!!! :(
    Siemens 4000 quoted around €1500 + VAT!!! :eek:
    Visonic Express (wireless) quoted around €1000!! :(

    They all seem astronomical since the initial prices they publish on their websites start from €499 for a 3 bed house like mine.

    Also, the guy trying to sell me Visonic said that HKC is a joke!:rolleyes: the batteries cannot be replaced by anyone but the engineers and can cost a fortune every two years... He also said that its GSM unit doesn't text immediately when the alarm goes off and it could be hours after! Of course that doesn't make sense.

    Can someone please confirm or debunk these and suggest someone who can do this job well and at a reasonable price?

    Thanks,
    Jay


  • #21
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,585 ✭✭✭kub


    jRoy wrote: »
    Hi all,
    I am still trying to get an alarm installed and every installer I've talked to don't want to install Siemens with reasons varying from "difficult to maintain" to "not suitable for homes"

    In other words they have no experience with it or if they are of a certain age can remember Europlex panels that broke our hearts years ago.

    For 5 windows, 3 doors, 2 PIRs, 2 fobs and GSM::
    HKC 1070 was quoted ~€1000!!! :(
    Siemens 4000 quoted around €1500 + VAT!!! :eek:
    Visonic Express (wireless) quoted around €1000!! :(

    OK my experience of the Siemens and Visonic systems is nil, HKC is my forte, I just done the maths and that €1,000 is around correct for a 10/70 with all those wireless devices you mentioned. Have you considered the HKC Quantum, it would work out cheaper.

    They all seem astronomical since the initial prices they publish on their websites start from €499 for a 3 bed house like mine.

    A typical introduction price, they do start at that but I would not really regard systems that cost €499 as a proper security system. You get what you pay for.

    Also, the guy trying to sell me Visonic said that HKC is a joke!:rolleyes: the batteries cannot be replaced by anyone but the engineers and can cost a fortune every two years... He also said that its GSM unit doesn't text immediately when the alarm goes off and it could be hours after! Of course that doesn't make sense.

    I am glad you have seen through him, I have been installing and servicing HKC systems since HKC started out and I have never encountered such difficulties. The batteries can be replaced by anyone, they don't cost a fortune and they are the same as some batteries which Visonic use. They last longer than two years. That is absolute rubbish about the HKC GSM. Basically the guy does not know his own business.

    Can someone please confirm or debunk these and suggest someone who can do this job well and at a reasonable price?

    All I can do is suggest that you consider the HKC Quantum. Koolkid has vast experience with Siemens and Visonic so he is the best man to advise you on those.

    Thanks,
    Jay

    PS has any of those installers specified the same system?


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  • #22
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Difficult to maintain & not suitable for domestic is installer language for I haven't a clue, all I know is HKC. Best to keep away from the likes of them.
    Do you want a basic Siemens panel or with IP and apps?


  • #23
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,585 ✭✭✭kub


    KoolKid wrote: »
    Difficult to maintain & not suitable for domestic is installer language for I haven't a clue, all I know is HKC. Best to keep away from the likes of them.
    Do you want a basic Siemens panel or with IP and apps?

    ;) Correct as usual, like most limited individuals I know HKC but have been known to enjoy having a crack at the others, did I mention ATS 1000 :confused:

    See Op, told you Koolkid was your man.


  • #24
    jRoy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24 ✭jRoy


    In the order of the posts above:
    Yes, I got two quotes for HKC, both above a grand and the second was €150 dearer.

    @Kub, my house is pre-wired, the only wireless items will be the two PIRs and the fobs.

    @KoolKid, I'd prefer an IP panel as it would be easier to configure and manage when necessary (I believe) given the 4000s have a web server built in but if its too expensive will go with just the GSM.
    However, I wonder if it'll still have the webserver interface available without IP and apps, may be via USB or Ethernet.

    Here is a list of items I need, all wired expect where indicated:
    1 External Bell Box
    1 Internal Siren
    2 Passive Infa Red (Detector) [wireless]
    1 Back up reserve battery b][i]not sure why its listed separate from the panel... company added it[/i][/b
    3 Door Contact for main doors (one front and two back [pair of patio double doors]
    5 HKC Inertia window & door shock sensors
    1 Wireless key fob with Panic Button and remote setting & Unsetting of system
    1 GSM dialer
    1 Dummy bell box for the back of the house.


  • #25
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    jRoy wrote: »
    @KoolKid,
    However, I wonder if it'll still have the webserver interface available without IP and apps, may be via USB or Ethernet.

    You do have access via usb using a web browser or SPC Pro
    jRoy wrote: »
    Here is a list of items I need, all wired expect where indicated:
    1 External Bell Box
    1 Internal Siren
    2 Passive Infa Red (Detector) [wireless]
    1 Back up reserve battery b][i]not sure why its listed separate from the panel... company added it[/i][/b
    3 Door Contact for main doors (one front and two back [pair of patio double doors]
    5 HKC Inertia window & door shock sensors
    1 Wireless key fob with Panic Button and remote setting & Unsetting of system
    1 GSM dialer
    1 Dummy bell box for the back of the house.

    There is a lot there . Your price of €1000-€1200 is reasonable enough for a full professional installation & set up.


  • #26
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    These threads are not for the promotion of brands or products.
    If any company wishes to represent themselves they may apply to the office for a verified rep account.
    Anyway they are probably outdated at this stage and they have served their original purpose, so we'll leave them as is.


This discussion has been closed.
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