The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

J C · 19-11-2012 07:37PM

pauldla wrote: »

There was never a question of medical neglect being directed against a religious minority. That was your own unique interpretation of the cartoon. Your interpretation does not seem to be shared by others on this thread: and that would make you a minority of one.

I never said that "Creationists should receive 'Noahs Ark' style ineffective medical treatment". You really are shameless in the way you put words in peoples mouth. Is this a Christian? Is this an example of "thou shalt not bear false witness"? If so, it is no wonder so many have tired of the hypocrisy.

I shall continue to use humour to test the strength and veracity of beliefs, though of course I shall limit myself to the appropriate fora. I can pm you links, if you are interested.

I have no wish to put words in your mouth ... nor do I have any objection to you poking fun at my beliefs ... but I think that suggesting that ineffectual medical treatment be provided to Creationists ... or Evolutionists ... or indeed anybody is in very bad taste, to say the least.

... and the cartoon that you are defending did talk about a 'Noahs Ark' version of ineffectual treatment for the Creationist in it ... and I don't think that it is acceptable for a doctor to suggest this ... in jest ... or for any other reason.
... so I am bearing true witness against you.
The doctor in the cartoon is clearly using an Evolutionist 'straw-man' argument to justify the possibility of not properly treating the Creationist.

J C · 19-11-2012 09:09PM

Masteroid wrote: »

No, you are not getting away with that. Let's go through it slowly shall we?

What do you think is meant by the phrase 'small and great'?
All of the damned.

This phase is employed in the previous chapter of Revelation:

Revelation 19:

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+19&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31035h"][COLOR=#0066cc]h[/COLOR][/URL 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, freeURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+19&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31036i"][COLOR=#0066cc]i[/COLOR][/URL and slave, both small and great.”

... yes it means everyone ... in the case of Rev 20:12 everyone who is Damned after the millenium.

Masteroid wrote: »

What does it mean here? Does its meaning change for the next chapter?

What is the difference between a great king and a small one? What is meant by 'the flesh of all people, free and slave? And why qualify that list with 'both great and small'?

Yes, these are the bodies of everyone killed in the Battle of Armagedon.

Masteroid wrote: »

The term was used earlier too, Revelation 11:18

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.

It is clear that all the dead are to be judged.

And you are clearly wrong in your interpretation.

All the Damned are to be judged ... and the Saved are to be rewarded.
That is why the Saved are said to go to their eternal reward ... while the unSaved go to their eternal judgement.

Masteroid wrote: »

Noone receives their reward in heaven or their punishment in hell until after Christ's Thousand Year Reign. Of the occupants of Death, Hades and the sea(?), some are written in the book and will be saved. Those who repent and acccept Jesus as their saviour, for example. Even the prophets and saints have to wait and in another part of the story, they are awoken to be told to wait a little longer,

They do ... that is why Lazarus was in the pre-salvation 'heavenly' section of Hades ... while the Rich Man was in the 'Hellish' section ... and an insurmountable divide separated them.
Heaven was opened to the Saved upon Christ's atoning death.

Masteroid wrote: »

Revelation 6:

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

These Saved souls certainly aren't asleep, as you would have us believe ... they are under the altar of Heaven.

Masteroid wrote: »

Even the martyrs have to wait.

But as far as I'm concerned, the clincher is,

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for aURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31043a"][COLOR=#0066cc]a[/COLOR][/URL thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The ones who take part in the first resurrection are not the only ones to escape the second death. Abraham, Moses, Abel nor Mary are part of that group but it is fair to assume that they too will survive the second death. It is not just souls of people who are beheaded who get to enter the Temple of God, is it?

The list of those reigning with Christ during the Millenium isn't exhaustive ... as all of the Saved at the start of the millenium will reign with Christ.

Masteroid wrote: »

Therefore, neither Lazarus nor the rich man have been shown their fates through Gods judgement and won't do for quite some time.

They both knew their fates ... the Rich Man begged for Lazarus (who was in the lap of luxury for the first time in his life) to come and ease his agony. Also please note that neither are asleep.
LK 16:22-26 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.
... their fates were sealed ... and the Rich Man was in the pre-salvation 'Hellish' section of Hades ... while Lazarus was in the pre-salvation 'Heavenly' section of Hades.

Masteroid · 19-11-2012 09:11PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Now that the X files diversion has ended, it has ended hasn't it?
I was responding to your remark about god not existing outside this universe.
I took it to mean a god in the terms of Zeus or Odin, i.e. some superman figure.
God as described by Christians isn't in that category.
In fairness some times descriptions of God are more projections than anything else and bad ones at that.
I'm not even sure Christians claim to have anymore than a slight idea what god is.
Not that I'm implying that those who do claim to have a hotline to God aren't Christians, far be it for me and all that.

It just seems to me, when you analyse the bible, God's plan is very reliant on a great deal of suffering. Why would the creator of the universe be reliant on the suffering of a certain number of a particular kind of person?

If we abandon God then we abandon armagedden. If enough people don't die in the name of Jesus, God cannot complete His plan for the destruction of the world. Why would anyone want Him to succeed?

It makes me wonder, who is the beast that deceives nations and brings them to destruction?

And based on your God-given morality, do you know anyone who actually deserves to suffer burning for eternity?

Whether God exists within or without the universe, it seems to me that we should be looking for ways to thwart His plans.

And how can Christians be sure that God isn't Satan masquerading as God? Now that would be the ultimate deception wouldn't it? And the bible would actually make more sense.

Imagine, if the sophisticated serpent knew the Jewish prophecy and engineered the whole Messiah event. Imagine if Jesus was the false prophet.

Where would Christianity lead mankind then? And how can we be sure that Satan didn't inspire the bible?

It makes sense, the Hebrew God does very little for Himself. The burning-bush was only able to instruct Moses and seemed to lack the power to deal with the Egyptians Himself. The genocides of the bible are carried out by men doing 'God's will' in most cases, God does very little smiting Himself.

It is as if God is limited in exactly the way that Satan is.

And doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that God loves nothing more than the smell of burning flesh - what's up with that?

There may well be many differing Christian views of God but none of them are reflected by the God of Abraham. And how many Christians know more about the bible than what they've been told? I'm constantly amazed at how many Christians don't know what the 'Immaculate Conception' actually means. It's pointless trying to get them to analyse God, they won't.

A third of the world is Christianised and the world has never been in a worse state. The world would be no worse off for the lack of God nor better off for the lack of Satan.

And teaching people that they are inherently evil does not help the world to become a better place.

J C · 19-11-2012 10:12PM

Masteroid wrote: »

It just seems to me, when you analyse the bible, God's plan is very reliant on a great deal of suffering. Why would the creator of the universe be reliant on the suffering of a certain number of a particular kind of person?
He isn't reliant on suffering ... people bring suffering upon themselves ... or inflict it on others.

If we abandon God then we abandon armagedden. If enough people don't die in the name of Jesus, God cannot complete His plan for the destruction of the world. Why would anyone want Him to succeed?
Armageddon isn't caused by God ... its brought to fruition by mankind in combination with the Anti-christ.

It makes me wonder, who is the beast that deceives nations and brings them to destruction?
No need to wonder, he is the Man of Sin ... and the Son of eternal perdition.

And based on your God-given morality, do you know anyone who actually deserves to suffer burning for eternity?
... I don't actually ... they are all amazing, beautiful, much-loved Human Beings, who sell their souls for a pittance ... and nobody, not even God, can prevent them exercising their free will to do so!!

Whether God exists within or without the universe, it seems to me that we should be looking for ways to thwart His plans.
His plans are to prosper you ... to love you ... and bring you eternal peace and bliss.
Why would you want to thwart these plans for you?
... yet, amazingly, many do.

And how can Christians be sure that God isn't Satan masquerading as God? Now that would be the ultimate deception wouldn't it? And the bible would actually make more sense.
It would be the ultimate deception allright ... yet it is actually the other way around ... and it is Satan who is trying his best to become as God!!!

Imagine, if the sophisticated serpent knew the Jewish prophecy and engineered the whole Messiah event. Imagine if Jesus was the false prophet.
... imagine all you like ... but it's still only in your imagination.

Where would Christianity lead mankind then? And how can we be sure that Satan didn't inspire the bible?
... there is every possibility that Satan can deceive the unSaved ... and the Saved have the Holy Spirit to ensure our spiritual dicernment.

It makes sense, the Hebrew God does very little for Himself. The burning-bush was only able to instruct Moses and seemed to lack the power to deal with the Egyptians Himself. The genocides of the bible are carried out by men doing 'God's will' in most cases, God does very little smiting Himself.
God dealt directly with the Egyptians allright ... and He dealt with an irrideemably evil Humanity in the Flood ... so I woudn't go tempting Him to smite anybody ... and especially myself ... if were you!!
God is infinitely just as well as infinitely merciful ... and I'd try and ensure that it is His mercy ... rather than His justice that you receive ... if I were you ... but of course, I'm not you!!!

It is as if God is limited in exactly the way that Satan is.
... please don't confuse God's patience ... with weakness!!!

There may well be many differing Christian views of God but none of them are reflected by the God of Abraham. And how many Christians know more about the bible than what they've been told? I'm constantly amazed at how many Christians don't know what the 'Immaculate Conception' actually means. It's pointless trying to get them to analyse God, they won't.
... you do have a very good point there ... I'm constantly embarassed by the lack of Biblical knowledge amongst professing Christians ... and the quite good knowledge of the Word of God amongst Atheists.

A third of the world is Christianised and the world has never been in a worse state. The world would be no worse off for the lack of God nor better off for the lack of Satan.
... when all Saved Christians are raptured ... and the restrainer is removed ... then you will see what 'all hell breaking loose' really means!!

And teaching people that they are inherently evil does not help the world to become a better place.
... one can but try!!!

... with love.

J C · 19-11-2012 11:19PM

Masteroid wrote: »

There are no daughters until after Seth.

They aren't mentioned ... but undoubtedly daughters were born to Adam and Eve ... both before and after Seth.
When God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply ... they obeyed that bit of advice!!:D

Masteroid wrote: »

Cain is in the land of Nod, hidden from the face of God, cursed, why would Eve's daughter be there?

... why not ... she was probably married to him before he killed Abel.

Masteroid wrote: »

By the way, that is worse than incest, sending your daughter to live with a fratricidal maniac. Did she have a choice?

... she may have been the first woman to marry a murderer ... but she certainly wasn't the last!!

Masteroid wrote: »

Hmm, very seedy if you ask me.

I'm not !!:)

Masteroid wrote: »

That's by the by, there were no human women for Cain to reproduce with until after Adam was at least 130-years old and one would assume that Seth or Adam would get first pick of the daughters.

Annual pregnancies stretched out over 130 years can produce quite a few daughters!!!:)

Masteroid wrote: »

Oh, and that Eve was constantly pregnant which must have taken it out of her. She was punished much more severely than Adam, wasn't she?

Eve was much more healthy than modern women as she had been Created perfect ... so she probably 'bloomed' with each pregnancy!!

Masteroid wrote: »

Also, Lot's daughters didn't seem to suffer too much for their contravention of God's incest law, did they?

They were sinful women ... and Lot wasn't much better ... what can I say?

Masteroid wrote: »

And all the while, Abel languishes in Hades.

... probably the 'heavenly' part of Hades!!!

Masteroid wrote: »

Which version of the bible are you 'plain'-reading?

You twist words and deceive in precisely the manner of the beast depicted in Revelation and just in case you are correct in any part of your beliefs about God, you should tread much more carefully. Eternity is a long time and a lake of fire is not a comforting blanket where you can relax.

You're quite right ... and I'm Saved ... but the question is are you?
... and only you and Jesus Christ can answer that.

Masteroid · 19-11-2012 11:30PM

J C wrote: »

The list of those reigning with Christ during the Millenium isn't exhaustive ... as all of the Saved at the start of the millenium will reign with Christ.

Is English not your first language J C?

And what precisely do you mean by plain reading?

Let's go through this again:

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for aURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31043a"][COLOR=#0066cc]a[/COLOR][/URL thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So, John says, "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a/B][URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31043a"][COLOR=#0066cc][B]a[/B][/COLOR][/URL][B thousand years."

This is clear, the entire group of people described here had been beheaded. Neither Abel, Adam, Moses, Noah, Lot, Mary, the thief on the cross beside Jesus, nor even Peter are part of that group.

Okay, I'm prepared to accept that the word 'beheaded' was derived from a word meaning 'cut off from life' so Peter may be part of that group and because I'm reasonable, I might accept that they include the same group as the group beneath the altar in 'The Fifth Seal' who are described in a similar way.

And it was said to the group under the altar 'that they should rest a little while longer'. Longer than what? They were obviously previously in a state of rest and were disturbed to be given white cloaks. Plain reading suggests that, nothing else.

So, John describes a particular group as reigning with Christ but then he qualifies this group to the exclusion of all of the rest of the dead by saying:

"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished."

So the 'dead', which is everyone because it neither states nor implies 'damned' are divided into two distinct groups as shown by what John says next:

"This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection"

It could not be plainer, the only people that take part in the first resurrection are ones that were murdered for their beliefs and never worshiped the beast (which I take to mean never sinned against God).

"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished."

Not any of them.

The rest of the dead were in Hades, Death or the sea. All of them.

And John qualifies this further when he says:

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years"

The entire group that takes part in the first resurrection 'shall be priests of God and Christ'. Is God's temple to be filled with priests and no flock?

Moreover, does dying of natural causes damn you to hell? Must you be a murdered sinless believer to attain heaven? What about the obedient nun who dies of a heart attack, does she automatically burn?

Of course not, that's what the second resurrection is about, Judgement.

John is specific, the first resurrection will produce priests. The rest of the dead must wait one-thousand years longer.

But wait, then you come up with this:

J C wrote:

... their fates were sealed ... and the Rich Man was in the pre-salvation 'Hellish' section of Hades ... while Lazarus was in the pre-salvation 'Heavenly' section of Hades.

where you accept that they are both in Hades. With Abraham!

Which is what I said.

Unfortunately, your 'departmentalised' Hades is not supported by John who makes no distinction of the sort. 'Hades, Death and the sea give up their dead in their entirety to be presented for judgement. If you are in the book go right, or else go left and follow the screams.

Neither Lazarus nor the rich man 'know' what Judgement Day will bring or does being a useless beggar qualify one for Gods temple?

And didn't the rich man work hard like the boss in the 'Talents Parable'?

At least now you seem to accept that Hades in inhabited by some who will survive the second death through Judgement which, presumably can be mitigated by repentance and accepting Jesus as your saviour among, hopefully, other things.

Therefore, either Luke didn't write it down properly, John didn't write it down properly, the person talking to Luke about these things made it up or Jesus was just pretending that He knew stuff about stuff and described Hades as being a place where the saved and unsaved can chat to each other across a divide that cannot be crossed in order to impress His mates.

Thing is, the lake of fire is not located in Hades is it? According to Revelation, Hades too, along with Death are consumed by the lake which is somewhere else and will have just recently taken the beast in as a guest for eternity.

Do you still think that heaven and hell are occupied by the saved and the damned before the seals are opened?

If so, what is Abraham doing in Hades? Or anyone for that matter?

Also, if everyone in Hades is damned then what is the point of the book? Why not just show that Hades contains only the damned by throwing it into the lake complete with its occupants?

Masteroid · 19-11-2012 11:45PM

J C wrote: »

He isn't reliant on suffering ... people bring suffering upon themselves ... or inflict it on others.

No, He is:

Revelation 6:11

Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Whose agenda is being served by this?

J C · 19-11-2012 11:53PM

Masteroid wrote: »

No, He is:

Revelation 6:11

Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Whose agenda is being served by this?

This is the post-church era, after the Rapture ... and there are no Saved people left on Earth ... and the only way to be Saved is through martyrdom.
The era of Grace has passed at this stage ... and the era of justice has begun.

J C · 19-11-2012 11:55PM

Masteroid wrote: »

You should show support with thanks. You need the support.

And for the record, I don't think that any recognised denomination of Christianity would view you as a Christian.

The only person who ultimately matters, when it comes to recognising whether someone is a Christian ... or not ... is Jesus Christ.

PopePalpatine · 20-11-2012 12:11AM

J C wrote: »

They (Lot's daughters) were sinful women ...

So, they deserved to be thrown to the lions mob of rapists?

J C · 20-11-2012 12:18AM

Masteroid wrote: »

Is English not your first language J C?

And what precisely do you mean by plain reading?

Let's go through this again:

I couldn't be bothered ... we've been over this ad nauseum.

Its very simple, Hades was divided in two before Christ's atonement ... a 'hellish' side for the 'to-be-damned' ... and a 'heavenly' side for the 'to-be-saved'.
The Rich Man was in the 'hellish' side ... and Lazarus and Abraham was in the 'heavenly' side ... and 'ner the two could meet.
When Jesus died He went down to Hades and brought the Saved to Heaven ... and left the damned where they were in Hades.
During the Church era, when a person dies their soul goes to either Heaven or Hades, depending on whether they decide to be Saved ... or not.
Immediately, after Armageddon Jesus will return in Glory to make the Great Judgement ... taking the spirits of the damned from Hades and their bodies from wherever and consigning tham to Hell for eternity and determining and announcing the eternal reward of each of the Saved (who are already in Heaven).
There is a further judgement after the Millenium ... of those who have rebelled against God during the Millenium.

J C · 20-11-2012 12:25AM

wrote:

J C
They (Lot's daughters) were sinful women ... and Lot wasn't much better ...

PopePalpatine
So, they deserved to be thrown to the lions mob of rapists?

Now, what do you think???

I wasn't talking about the threatened mob rape in Sodom ... (which was actually directed at the two angels) I was talking about the incestuous relations between Lots daughters and Lot later on.

Lot's daughters obviously didn't deserve to be raped in Sodom ... and despite Lot's cowardly and spineless behaviour, in offering his daughters to the mob ... the angels ensured that Lots daughters weren't thrown to the mob or raped in Sodom.

I note that you truncated my quote ... where I also condemned Lot for the incest incidents!!!

Do you not believe that women (as well as men) can be sinful?

tommy2bad · 20-11-2012 12:48AM

JC, are you getting this stuff from some sect I'v never come across before? TBH your posts have more of that sky conspiracy theory channel in them than gospel or bible let alone any theology of the last ooh about 1500 years.

Masteroid wrote: »

It just seems to me, when you analyse the bible, God's plan is very reliant on a great deal of suffering. Why would the creator of the universe be reliant on the suffering of a certain number of a particular kind of person?
Not the suffering but the faithfulness in spite of the suffering.
If we abandon God then we abandon armagedden. If enough people don't die in the name of Jesus, God cannot complete His plan for the destruction of the world. Why would anyone want Him to succeed?
Not destruction but reconstruction and restoration
It makes me wonder, who is the beast that deceives nations and brings them to destruction?

And based on your God-given morality, do you know anyone who actually deserves to suffer burning for eternity?
All of us deserve it
Whether God exists within or without the universe, it seems to me that we should be looking for ways to thwart His plans.

And how can Christians be sure that God isn't Satan masquerading as God? Now that would be the ultimate deception wouldn't it? And the bible would actually make more sense.
Getting a clue at last
Imagine, if the sophisticated serpent knew the Jewish prophecy and engineered the whole Messiah event. Imagine if Jesus was the false prophet.

Where would Christianity lead mankind then? And how can we be sure that Satan didn't inspire the bible?

It makes sense, the Hebrew God does very little for Himself. The burning-bush was only able to instruct Moses and seemed to lack the power to deal with the Egyptians Himself. The genocides of the bible are carried out by men doing 'God's will' in most cases, God does very little smiting Himself.

It is as if God is limited in exactly the way that Satan is.
He is, but by His own reluctance rather than any impediment
And doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that God loves nothing more than the smell of burning flesh - what's up with that?

There may well be many differing Christian views of God but none of them are reflected by the God of Abraham. And how many Christians know more about the bible than what they've been told? I'm constantly amazed at how many Christians don't know what the 'Immaculate Conception' actually means. It's pointless trying to get them to analyse God, they won't.
Most won't analize themselves or their motives let alone God...so?
A third of the world is Christianised and the world has never been in a worse state. The world would be no worse off for the lack of God nor better off for the lack of Satan.
:eek: you jest, right?
And teaching people that they are inherently evil does not help the world to become a better place.

Then they are being lied too, the message is we are made in Gods image but fallen and can again be restored to perfection.
Don't get me wrong, the God of Abraham is a killer and a destroyer. He has no mercy for the innocent or the guilty. To deny this is to gloss over the harsh reality of faith, that we worship something that will mortally destroy us.
But thats not the whole story. He will also redeem every lost sick filthy sinful shameful one of us if we accept it. Even the worst of us can be saved. Not a pretty thought either when you conceder some of the sinners you might have to sit with in heaven.

Masteroid · 20-11-2012 12:49AM

J C wrote: »

They were sinful women ... and Lot wasn't much better ... what can I say?

LOL. Well now we know that you are doing this on the fly. You just spoiled my post by changing your position. In the e-mail, you said 'God's incest law had not been enacted at the time of Lot.'

He he, that's funny.

I'm really looking forward to the next bit, Matthew 25.

J C · 20-11-2012 01:18AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

JC, are you getting this stuff from some sect I'v never come across before? TBH your posts have more of that sky conspiracy theory channel in them than gospel or bible let alone any theology of the last ooh about 1500 years.

No sect ... it's all in your Bible, Tommy ... go read it.

Masteroid · 20-11-2012 01:18AM

J C wrote: »

I couldn't be bothered ... and you're 'all wet' ... and confused.

Its very simple Hades was divided in two before Christ's atonement ... a 'hellish' side for the 'to-be-damned' ... and a 'heavenly' side for the 'to-be-saved'.
The Rich Man was in the 'hellish' side ... and Lazarus and Abraham was in the 'heavenly' side ... and 'ner the two could meet.
When Jesus died He went down to Hades and brought the Saved to Heaven ... and left the damned where they were in Hades.
During the Church era, when a person dies their soul goes to either Heaven or Hades, depending on whether they decide to be Saved ... or not.
Immediately, after Armageddon Jesus will return in Glory to make the Great Judgement ... taking the spirits of the damned from Hades and their bodies from wherever and consigning tham to Hell for eternity and determining and announcing the eternal reward of each of the Saved (who are already in Heaven).
There is a further judgement after the Millenium ... of those who have rebelled against God during the Millenium.

So, Matthew 25, The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holyURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-24040c"]c[/URL angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him,URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-24053d"]d[/URL saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

From the top. Verses 31-33 are describing the same events that are being described in Revelation 20 as the Great White Throne Judgement.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31051c"]c[/URL and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31053d"]d[/URL 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 37 of Matthew 25:

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

This could be Lazarus talking. After he learns his judgement.

And from verse 44:

44 “Then they also will answer Him,/COLOR][URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-24053d"][COLOR=#0066cc]d[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#0000ff saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

This could be the rich man and he seems surprised.

So we have Jesus's words that indicates that noone learns how they will be judged until Judgement Day which is yet to come and Luke's words that indicate that we arrive at judgement day in full knowledge of the coming judgement.

One of them must have it wrong, is it Luke who has it wrong or is it Jesus and John who have it wrong?

Both is an option, neither is not.

You pick the part of the bible that is not the infallible word of God.;)

J C · 20-11-2012 01:36AM

Masteroid wrote: »

So, Matthew 25, The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holyURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-24040c"]c[/URL angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him,URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-24053d"]d[/URL saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

From the top. Verses 31-33 are describing the same events that are being described in Revelation 20 as the Great White Throne Judgement.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31051c"]c[/URL and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31053d"]d[/URL 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 37 of Matthew 25:

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

This could be Lazarus talking. After he learns his judgement.

And from verse 44:

44 “Then they also will answer Him,/COLOR][URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-24053d"][COLOR=#0066cc]d[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#0000ff saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

This could be the rich man and he seems surprised.

So we have Jesus's words that indicates that noone learns how they will be judged until Judgement Day which is yet to come and Luke's words that indicate that we arrive at judgement day in full knowledge of the coming judgement.

One of them must have it wrong, is it Luke who has it wrong or is it Jesus and John who have it wrong?

Both is an option, neither is not.

You pick the part of the bible that is not the infallible word of God.;)

The Passages from Matthew and Revelation are not describing the same event ... Matthew is describing the return of Jesus in Glory at Armageddon to judge the damned (Goats) and reward the Saved (Sheep) before setting up His millennial reign,
Revelation 20 is describing the Great White Throne Judgement of the people who rebelled at the end of the Millennium ... and it takes place after the Millennium.

... and the pleadings of innocence from the Goats and the protests of humility from the Sheep ... are just that ... pleas and protests ... after the sentences/rewards have been pronounced.
... but both categories know their fate from when they died.
... and indeed the reason the damned are damned ... or the Saved are Saved isn't because of good works (or a lack thereof) ... these are only symptoms of their Salvation / Damnation ... and not the cause ... which is the acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ's atonement for their sins.

Masteroid · 20-11-2012 02:28AM

J C wrote: »

This is the post-church era, after the Rapture ... and there are no Saved people left on Earth ... and the only way to be Saved is through martyrdom.
The era of Grace has passed at this stage ... and the era of justice has begun.

You're just making this up as you go along, J C. Where are you getting this stuff from.

You're making it out as though Jesus can sneak you in through a back door that simply isn't available to non-Christians such as Abel, Adam, Abraham, etc.

What gets you through the tribulation, converting to Christianty and repenting as you are being murdered by an angel? That hardly seems fair. Even the martyrs had to wait until everyone was dead.

And if the rapture was a process of removing people from Hades, Death an'd the sea, why didn't Jesus or John indicate such? Indeed Jesus indicates in that passage in Matthew that the Christians are among the sheep to the right.

Why didn't John report the other 'first resurrection'? Why didn't Jesus?

Why are you?

And do you think that Luke should be dropped from the New Testament through lack of credibility?

Or should it be Matthew and Revelation that are dropped?

Masteroid · 20-11-2012 02:48AM

J C wrote: »

The Passages from Matthew and Revelation are not describing the same event ... Matthew is describing the return of Jesus in Glory at Armageddon to judge the damned (Goats) and reward the Saved (Sheep) before setting up His millennial reign,
Revelation 20 is describing the Great White Throne Judgement of the people who rebelled at the end of the Millennium ... and it takes place after the Millennium.

(bleat bleat bleat)

Are you for real?

First, the passage in Matthew relates what he claims to be Jesus's words and Jesus is quite clearly talking about The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations.

How many resurrection events are there?

This is precisely the same event as depicted by The White Throne Judgement in Revelation.

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations

And again, you imply an alternative 'first resurrection' event.

It's easy to plain read a bible that you yourself wrote.

Oh, and Matthew is talking about a Judgement on 'works' and not 'faith'. It is evident that there are 'believers' to the left who were let down by works.

But more importantly, it is possible that there are some who did not believe but were saved through works included to the right.

So, if those being judged in Matthew consisted of the faithful and the faithless, how were the faithless selected to be removed from Hades, presented for Judgement and then thrown into the lake before the beast has even been chained?

If the rapture was all Christians, living and dead being fast-tracked to salvation, who were the people Jesus was Judging in Matthew and who are the people He judges in the white throne room?

Masteroid · 20-11-2012 03:16AM

J C wrote: »

... and indeed the reason the damned are damned ... or the Saved are Saved isn't because of good works (or a lack thereof) ... these are only symptoms of their Salvation / Damnation ... and not the cause ... which is the acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ's atonement for their sins.

So Abel, Adam, Abraham, Noah and all the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, etc., are screwed.

pauldla · 20-11-2012 09:53AM

J C wrote: »

I have no wish to put words in your mouth ... nor do I have any objection to you poking fun at my beliefs ... but I think that suggesting that ineffectual medical treatment be provided to Creationists ... or Evolutionists ... or indeed anybody is in very bad taste, to say the least.

... and the cartoon that you are defending did talk about a 'Noahs Ark' version of ineffectual treatment for the Creationist in it ... and I don't think that it is acceptable for a doctor to suggest this ... in jest ... or for any other reason.
... so I am bearing true witness against you.
The doctor in the cartoon is clearly using an Evolutionist 'straw-man' argument to justify the possibility of not properly treating the Creationist.

You did put words in my mouth. To say now that you have 'no wish' to put words in my mouth is completely disingenuous.

I did not say that ineffectual medical treatment should be provided to Creationists. This is another untruth. More false witness, JC?

As for the cartoon itself, you lost any credibility in my eyes with your talk of genocide against creationists. For the record, the cartoon does offer a 'Noah's Ark' treatment to the Creationist - if they were small-minded and petty enough to be uncomfortable with the 'evolved' treatment. As I've said before, I can see why you don't like that cartoon: it mocks slavish adherence to dubious beliefs. And it would seem, in this case, to have hit a nerve, would it not?

J C · 20-11-2012 07:55PM

pauldla wrote: »

You did put words in my mouth. To say now that you have 'no wish' to put words in my mouth is completely disingenuous.

I did not say that ineffectual medical treatment should be provided to Creationists. This is another untruth. More false witness, JC?

As for the cartoon itself, you lost any credibility in my eyes with your talk of genocide against creationists. For the record, the cartoon does offer a 'Noah's Ark' treatment to the Creationist - if they were small-minded and petty enough to be uncomfortable with the 'evolved' treatment. As I've said before, I can see why you don't like that cartoon: it mocks slavish adherence to dubious beliefs. And it would seem, in this case, to have hit a nerve, would it not?

It is as outrageous as me posting a cartoon showing a Creationist Doctor asking an Evolutionist patient with TB why he wanted any medical treatment, in view of his belief in 'survival of the fittest'.
... and I then start justifying it on the basis that Evoutionists deserve second rate medical treatment because they are 'small-minded petty idiots' that don't know what is good for them!!!
... when they are just as intelligent and deserving of proper medical care as Creationists.

... and could I suggest that when you are in a self-dug metaphorical 'hole' ... you should stop digging!!;)

J C · 20-11-2012 09:07PM

Masteroid wrote: »

You're just making this up as you go along, J C. Where are you getting this stuff from.
It's all in the Word of God.

You're making it out as though Jesus can sneak you in through a back door that simply isn't available to non-Christians such as Abel, Adam, Abraham, etc.
As a God of justice and mercy, God logically makes salvation available to everybody ... and judges their wishes.
People who lived before Jesus Christ's atonement and people who never heard of Jesus Christ and His ability to Save them are logically given the option of choosing Salvation ... or not, at their moment of death.
People who make a deliberate and informed choice to reject Jesus and maintain this position throughout their life will also logically have their choice respected after they die.

What gets you through the tribulation, converting to Christianty and repenting as you are being murdered by an angel? That hardly seems fair. Even the martyrs had to wait until everyone was dead.
... the tribulation period occurs after the church era ... so people can only be Saved (or not) at the moment of their death ... just like the situation was before the Church age.

And if the rapture was a process of removing people from Hades, Death an'd the sea, why didn't Jesus or John indicate such? Indeed Jesus indicates in that passage in Matthew that the Christians are among the sheep to the right.
... the Rapture is the process by which the church is removed from the World immediately before the Great Tribulation starts with the rise of the Anti-christ, when the restraint of the Holy Spirit indwelt in Christians is removed.

And do you think that Luke should be dropped from the New Testament through lack of credibility?
No
Or should it be Matthew and Revelation that are dropped?
No

Sin City · 20-11-2012 09:38PM

J C wrote: »

It is as outrageous as a cartoon showing a Creationist Doctor asking an Evolutionist patient with TB why he wanted any medical treatment, in view of his belief in 'survival of the fittest'.
... and I started justifying it on the basis that Evoutionists deserve second rate medical treatment because they are small-minded petty idiots that don't know what is good for them!!!
... when they are just as intelligent and deserving of proper medical care as Creationists.

... and could I suggest that when you are in a self-dug metaphorical 'hole' ... you should stop digging!!;)

J C · 20-11-2012 09:51PM

Masteroid wrote: »

Are you for real?

First, the passage in Matthew relates what he claims to be Jesus's words and Jesus is quite clearly talking about The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations.
Yes, this is the First ... or Great Judgement immediately after Jesus Christ's Second Coming, at the end of the Great Tribulation.

How many resurrection events are there?
Four ... Jesus Christ's own resurrection, the Ressurection at the Rapture, the Resurrection of the damned for the Great Judgement ... and the Resurrection of the damned from the millennium, for the Great White Throne Judgement.

This is precisely the same event as depicted by The White Throne Judgement in Revelation.
No

It's easy to plain read a bible that you yourself wrote.
You don't realise how close to correct, in a sense you are ...
... as I'm indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who inspired the writing of the Bible ... I'm making a plain reading of the Bible in association with the One who wrote it.

Oh, and Matthew is talking about a Judgement on 'works' and not 'faith'. It is evident that there are 'believers' to the left who were let down by works.
... we will always be 'let down' by works ... as works cannot Save us.

But more importantly, it is possible that there are some who did not believe but were saved through works included to the right.
No

So, if those being judged in Matthew consisted of the faithful and the faithless, how were the faithless selected to be removed from Hades, presented for Judgement and then thrown into the lake before the beast has even been chained?
I see no issue there.

If the rapture was all Christians, living and dead being fast-tracked to salvation, who were the people Jesus was Judging in Matthew and who are the people He judges in the white throne room?
The Rapture is the 'fast-tracking' of all living Saved Christians (body and spirit) as well as the bodies of the Saved dead, at that time, to Heaven ... and they, along with the Great Tribulation martyrs (who are collectivley 'the Sheep' in Matthew 25) are formally granted their eternal reward at the Great Judgement before the Millennium.
The White Throne Judgement is on the Millennium damned at the end of the Millennium.

.

J C · 20-11-2012 10:02PM

I guess we've now reached the prophecy stage of the thread!!:):D:eek:

Masteroid · 20-11-2012 10:19PM

J C wrote: »

... we will always be 'let down' by works ... as works cannot Save us.

No, the sheep were saved through works and the goats were condemned though works.

J C wrote: »

I see no issue there.

What makes you think that Hades is emptied twice?

J C wrote: »

The Rapture is the 'fast-tracking' of all living Saved Christians (body and spirit) as well as the bodies of the Saved dead, at that time, to Heaven ... and they, along with the Great Tribulation martyrs (who are collectivley 'the Sheep' in Matthew 25) are formally granted their eternal reward at the Great Judgement before the Millennium.
The White Throne Judgement is on the Millennium damned at the end of the Millennium.

LOL.You're wriggling now.

You are claiming that the Rapture is now a Judgement on all nations as opposed to being the event where all Christians, dead and alive are transported bodily to heaven which has nothing to do with any judgement being passed.

Where did you read that many of those caught up in the Rapture are not Christians?

And since you are so well informed, which demograph of the damned is produced before Jesus as a result of the Rapture?

I guess that being taken in the Rapture isn't the blessing that many believe it is, huh?

J C · 20-11-2012 10:35PM

Masteroid wrote: »

No, the sheep were saved through works and the goats were condemned though works.
Nobody can be Saved from the consequences of their sin through their own efforts ... only God can do so.

What makes you think that Hades is emptied twice?
Hades will be emptied firstly, at the Great Judgement ... and secondly, at the White Throne Judgement.
... what makes you think that Hades isn't emptied twice?
... Hellish Hades is the equivalent of a 'remand prison' for the convicted Damned ... as they await their formal judgement ... and consignment to Hell.
Heavenly Hades is closed since the crucifixion.

LOL.You're wriggling now.

You are claiming that the Rapture is now a Judgement on all nations as opposed to being the event where all Christians, dead and alive are transported bodily to heaven which has nothing to do with any judgement being passed.

Where did you read that many of those caught up in the Rapture are not Christians?
Where did I say that??

The Rapture involves only the bodies of the Saved dead and bodies and spirits of the Saved living, just before the Great Tribulation.
There are no non-Saved involved in the Rapture.

And since you are so well informed, which demograph of the damned is produced before Jesus as a result of the Rapture?
None

I guess that being taken in the Rapture isn't the blessing that many believe it is, huh?
It is indeed a great blessing from God on His Saved people ... and His Saved people alone..

.

Masteroid · 20-11-2012 10:42PM

J C wrote: »

I guess we've now reached the prophecy stage of the thread!!:):D:eek:

Yeah? Well on that, it would be better for the world if 'the Lamb that is worthy' doesn't get anywhere near the scroll.

That way only those few favoured by God lose.

You know what they say about the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

God's people are the few and they are a fraction of all the humanity that ever lived.

In a democracy, God would lose.

J C · 20-11-2012 10:56PM

Masteroid wrote: »

Yeah? Well on that, it would be better for the world if 'the Lamb that is worthy' doesn't get anywhere near the scroll.

That way only those few favoured by God lose.

You know what they say about the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

God's people are the few and they are a fraction of all the humanity that ever lived.

In a democracy, God would lose.

Dream on!!!:D

God grants peoples wish to be Saved ... or not ... and you can't get any more democratic than that!!

... as for trying to 'gang-up' on God ... forget about it ... Lucifer tried that ... and he has been licking his eternal wounds ... ever since!!:eek:

God's people are indeed very few ... but they have the power of the living God ... and that makes them invincible ... as this thread proves!!:D

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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