The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

J C wrote: »

God created all of the Angels, including Lucifer ... who 'fell' when He became jealous of God ... and decided to rebel against Him.
God could destroy Satan ... but He doesn't ... because He created him as an eternal being.

I think you've just opened up a can of worms.

From what you are saying, God created Adam to be mortal then. In other words, whether Adam ate from the tree of knowledge or not, he was to die anyway. And so was Eve and any children they were to have because, obviously, they were not created eternal beings.

So much for your plain reading of the bible.

It always amazes me how religious zealots have to twist and distort sense and meaning in order to make the god of Genesis loving, merciful and just when in an actual fact, a plain reading of Genesis indicates the exact opposite.

In a plain reading of Genesis, God tells Adam he will die if he eats a particular fruit. He doesn't say that He will kill Adam to punish him for eating the fruit. This is apparent from Eve's conversation with the serpent who tell Eve that eating the fruit will not be fatal. He doesn't say that God won't kill her, he says that the fruit won''t.

If Eve thought that God meant that He would punish them for eating the fruit then she might well have argued something along the lines of 'what good is knowing stuff about stuff if I am dead' whereupon the serpent would have to up his game in order to directly court the wrath of God.

So, it wasn't the fruit that would kill them in God's mind. He lied.

And the serpent spoke truth.

You have to perform some serious linguistic, and mental, gymnastics to interpret Genesis as saying that God is honest and the serpent is dishonest.

No, a plain reading of Genesis suggests a story of two brothers, God and Lucifer.

Lucifer is the good looking one. He's clever, charming and funny and he gets all the girls.

God, on the other hand, is a bit spotty, has a big nose, a stammer and lousy fashion sense. And He resents His more successful brother.

Lucifer is popular, always the centre of attention and obviously, anyone who has respect or love for him also show respect to his brother but God's resentment grows - He wants to be the centre of attention, He's tired of Lucifer always being the star.

So one day, God decides to create a secret garden, His own special place that Lucifer will be no part of which He populates with sycophants. He is the king here and for the first time in His life, He feels like a god.

Well, it's all good for a while, God struts around His garden being worshipped by that which He made to worship Him and God is happy. Until one day, Lucifer, who had scored a coulpe of cup-final tickets went looking for God in order to invite Him out. Unfortunately, Lucifer had spotted God on His way to His secret garden and because didn't respond to his shouts and whistles, Lucifer followed Him and found himself stood at the gate of God's garden just as God had entered it.

God turns around to see Lucifer who is peering over His shoulder at His beautiful creation and stands in front of him to bar his entrance.

"What do you want?" asks God.

"Ah, don't be embarassed our kid, it's lovely. I knew there was an artist in you. You're so lucky to have that talent. Anyway, d'you fancy coming to the match, it Man U v Madrid, Man U are going to win 3-2 after scoring an equaliser and the winner in injury time. It'll be fun watching catholics being tormented, the Madrid fans are going to be gutted."

"Er, okay... whatever.. I have to go now. See ya later."

"Oh! See you later bro'," Lucifer says as God closes the gate and retreats into His garden.

Godhead is reeling.

"Dammit! He knows. Dammit! Dammit! DAMMIT!" The last 'dammit' came out as a loud curse though and Adam. who was nearby heard it.

Adam approached God.

"Whatever is the matter master?" he asked.

God was surprised, "Oh, Adam," he was thinking quickly, "Adam, promise me you'll never turn against me. Promise me that you will never forsake me."

"Of course my lord, you are the light and the creator - how could I ever forsake you?"

"It's just that I worry about you. And Eve. You're not like me, eternal, and there is danger in the garden."

"What danger sire?"

"Well, you know I told you that you can eat anything in the garden? Well, I noticed that you have been collecting fruit from trees in a certain area. One of those trees is about to produce lovely looking red fruit which looks very tasty. Thing is, it's poisonous. If you or Eve eat it you will die. I wouldn't even have it there only the fruit nourishes the rest of the garden and is a necessary evil but I'm..."

"What is 'evil' lord?"

"You don't need to be concerned with that Adam, the point is that I am worried that you or Eve might eat some and die. I don't want to force you to move but can I trust you not to eat it, I'd be very sad if anything should happen to you."

"I promise you lord, We shall not touch that fruit."

And the alarm was set.

And then it was tripped.

Lucifer became concerned about God. He was always in that garden of His and Lucifer decided to do the brotherly thing, grabbed a bottle of Jameson's and approached the locked gate at the entrance of the garden of Eden. He jumped over the gate and went looking for God but it was Eve he came across first.

"Hello," said Lucifer, "what a delightful creature .you are."

"Oh! Hello said Eve," as she felt an involuntary blush cover her entire body, "who are you sir?" she asked.

Lucifer instantly realised that his brother had not mentioned him to Eve and mischievously went on, "Are you alone here?"

"No," she replied, "what are those things covering your body?"

"Oh, it's Prada. So, c'mere, do you ever leave the garden, er... dressed like that?"

"Dressed sir? No sir... leave the garden, to go where?"

"I don't know, don't you want more?"

"But we have everything, sir. All you see is at our disposal. Except for one tree, that is. That one." She indicates a tree a few dozen paces behind her.

"That tree?" says Lucifer, "But why? he says as he walks toward it.

"It's poisonous," she says. "If we eat that fruit, we die."

"I think you are mistaken my dear, that's an apple tree." He reaches up, grabs a piece of fruit and takes a bite. "Mmm! See? It's lovely. Try some."

He hands her the apple and says, "You might accidentally eat poisonous fruit by avoiding the wrong tree."

She's reluctant, "Come on," he chides, "God wouldn't be very pleased with me if I came into His garden and just killed his most beautiful creation.

She blushes again. That makes sense. It would do, without knowledge of good and evil she could not know of any intent on Lucifer's part. She bites into the apple as Lucifer says,

"I'll have a word with God, get the tree thing straightened out. Maybe put up a sign in front of the right one or something. Or maybe He sprayed it with something. I wouldn't want you eating DDT either. Anyway, they're clean now. And delicious."

And even before Eve bit into the apple she was thinking, "This is the right tree, the tree with the bright red fruit."

Even before the juice of the apple touched her tongue she knew the tree hadn't been sprayed.

She bit into the apple knowing that Adam had lied to her.

Later, she confronted Adam. She was angry and didn't want to arouse him so she clothed herself before he saw her. She marched up to Adam, an apple in each hand and demanded,

"Why did you lie to me?"

Adam saw the apples, stepped back and pleaded, "Eve! What are you doing?"

She bites the apple, swallows, bites again.

"Do I look dead to you?" she spits as she throws the half-eaten apple at him. She went on, "Hundreds of these rot each year and you would deny me the taste of even one? Well, for what it's worth, I prefer peaches so you would have been welcome to your apples..."

"They're not mine," Adam interrupted, "and I didn't lie to you." The penny had dropped, "God lied to me. Us. He did say that we would die from eating the apples and yet you live. Why would God lie to me?"

Then Adam bit into the apple.

"Anyway," says Eve, thinking of Lucifer, the Light, "put some clothes on, We're not kids anymore."

Later, God enters the garden. He is looking for Adam and Eve. They should be going forth and multiplying about now. But what's this? He's looking at an empty whiskey bottle surrounded by dozens of apple cores scattered during Eve's first dance of defiance.

"Lucifer!" He snarls and goes marching off in search of Adam. But Adam and Eve are waiting for Him.

"Why did you decieve me my lord? Now I am confused about what is right and wrong. I have only ever heard one lie and it came from you... Why lord?" Adam asked.

"Well, you lied to me.. you said you wouldn't eat the apples and you did so that makes us quits," God retorted, thinking He had won the argument.

"Er... excuse me," said Eve helpfully, "I think you'll find that the contract was made on a false premise. You lied to Adam in order to extract the promise."

God got angry, "Well, it was a test," he stammered, "and you both failed. I wanted you to be obedient only to me."

"What?" said Adam as the realisation hit him, "We were to be nothing more than slaves in this garden? Well, to be honest God, I don't think that I can stay here anymore. I'd like to see the world outside the garden so we are going to leave."

"Well you can't cos you'll die.."

"Come on Eve, let's go."

"Well you can't leave because I'M KICKING YOU OUT. AND DON'T COME BACK! AND BABIES ARE EEE-VI-IIL!!"

God starts pacing up and down the garden.

"What am I to do. That damn Lucifer... one visit to the garden.. ngyoo, I'm lucifer... ngyer... I'm great me... ngyer nyer nyer."

Then it hits Him.

He goes to see Max Clifford.

"Hi Max," says God, "I'm God. I'd like you to run my publicity campaign... Now, I'm looking to write a book that makes me look good. Not just good but just and merciful... and I think we can pull it off if we say..."

J C wrote: »

Mount Everest and neighbouring peaks are capped by sedimentary limestone and underlain by low grade metamorphic rocks in the Yellow Band and Everest Series. These then pass down into granite, which was the volcanic source of the (rapid) uplift of the mountain range.

It's you who should read your links!!!!
Quote:
"The Himalayas and the Tibetan Plateau to the north have risen very rapidly. In just 50 million years, peaks such as Mt. Everest have risen to heights of more than 9 km. The impinging of the two landmasses has yet to end. The Himalayas continue to rise more than 1 cm a year -- a growth rate of 10 km in a million years! "
... so the 'long agers' find the Himalays rising now at 1 cm per year ... at the end of it's uplift phase ... (when the uplift has slowed down to a negligible amount) and they conclude it took 50 million years ... based on an average rise of 1/50 of its current uplift rate ... when it logically was uplifting vastly more rapidly, when the volcanism and tectonic movements were at their height, in the immediate aftermath of the Flood.

... volcanic and tectonic movements are rapid and catastrophic, even today ... and were vastly more rapid and active at the time of the Flood. For example, the two sides of the San Andreas Fault were instantly offset by over 20 feet at some points during the 1906 Earthquake.

You're failing to mention a very important point about the nature of the tectonic collision that resulted in the creation of the Himalayas.

If the two plates had impacted each other square, i.e., the force of the collision is spread equally along the length of the boundary then you would have at least some credibility when you claim that the rise of the Himalayas occurred in a linear fashion.

However, there are an infinite number of angles at which the plates could meet and a collision at any angle but square would cause a rotational motion to be added to the plates. Both of them.

I don't thing that even you would try to argue against the likelihood of an off-square collision since out of the infinite possibilities, there is only one that allows the edges of the plate to be a perfect match.

So, the plates collide and Everest pops her head above the surface but the plates are turning slightly. This slows down the elevation process. It is not until the boundaries of the plates have settled against each when Everest achieves maximum upward velocity.

And remember, if certain regions of the plates break down then it is theoretically possible for the Himalayan range to fall again.

Obviously mountain range formation is neither a linear process and nor does it rely on volcanic activity in order to generate lift and it is disingenuous for you to imply otherwise.

Then there is your take on evolution. You seem to believe that entropy is a stumbling block for evolution even though it is quite clear that evolution is nothing more than a consequence of entropy. To say the entropy is evidence of the non-existence of evolution is like saying that sunlight is evidence that the sun does not exist.

And the bible. Have you actually read it with your own eyes or was its meaning beaten into you? And was that the same way you learned about geology, physics, biology and history?

I suspect that you haven't considered this before as you seem to only cite 'cherry-picked' evidence. But none of your characterizations stand up to scientific or historical scrutiny and your attempts to plug these gaps reveals a fundamental ignorance. Only weaker, non-analytical minds could be persuaded by your arguments but they are the ones you are after, aren't they.

If you are intent on being the mad scientist that corrupts the world then it might be in your best interests to be just a little scientific about it.

J C wrote: »

That's just it ... the volcanicity is now largely ended ... and that is why the Himalayas are only rising at 1 cm per year ... instead of hundreds of metres, in the aftermath of the Flood.

Hmm, interesting. So the entire planet is submerged when the ground pushes up for some reason and within about a year, all the excess water has drained away. And all this while Noah is sat atop in his wooden boat.

First thing is, if the earth's surface rose then where are the radial cracks?

In order for the surface to be elevated it would have to break up creating fissures that the water could drain into. The earth's surface is not elastic like a balloon and the higher the earth lifted, the wider these cracks would have been. Where are these cracks?

Second, what happened to the water when it came into contact with the magma as it drained into the fissures? The earth would have been covered by a thick layer of steam that would have displaced the air making it impossible to breathe.

Then there is the problem of the massive tsunamis that are travelling in all directions around the entire planet. How did Noah survive these and avoid being washed down the drain by the huge currents that would have existed as a few metres of water per day drains into a network of fissures around the world?

And as if you don't have enough problems, there is the issue of subduction.

As the earth's surface breaks up, the resultant 'plates' acquire a new set of dynamics. Uneven weight distribution causes the plates to tip one way or the other, i.e., one side lifts and the other side becomes submerged in the magma.

The side that is submerged would then be melted which would alter the weight distribution causing the plate to alter its tilt angle. This would tend to cause the earth's surface to be flattened under the force of gravity. Think of an iceberg as it melts.

But what about the other side of the plate, the side that's been elevated?

Well, on smaller sized portions only the changes caused by subduction are relevant but on large pieces, it's a different story. As the edge of the plate rises into the air enormous stresses appear at the balancing point and just as the Titanic broke into two as its nose dipped below the surface, the plate would break causing the up-ended portion to career into the magma below and subduction would take over from there.

But there's more. When the broken off piece hits the magma, it generates a tsunami of lava which 'washes' over the exposed surfaces changing the weight distibution again.

And again, all this is going on while Noah bobs around in his wooden boat.

And apart from anything else, you can't explain why the magma chamber suddenly expanded all over the world which it must have in order not to significantly alter the way that the earth rotates.

To summarise then, the flood event that you describe would mean that the only mountains that should exist today are the result of volcanic deposits. It would mean that the water vapour content of the atmosphere would be much higher than it is since water cannot co-exist with magma below the earth's crust.

And more importantly, in the flood event you describe, an ark would have been about a much use to Noah as an asbestos suit would be to an astronaut collecting rock samples from the sun.