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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 282 ✭✭maguffin


    JC wrote:
    "You're the guys with the obvious 'old wives tales' ... claiming that rocks, which have clearly formed by cementation, took millions of years and mega-bars of pressure to set ... when any child can tell you that hydraulic cement sets in a matter of hours ... even under water!!!! "
    'Noun 1. hydraulic cement - a cement that hardens under water; made by heating limestone and clay in a kiln and pulverizing the result.' Interesting...it needs LIMESTONE...which we ALL know is a SEDIMENTARY ROCK, laid down over MILLIONS of years and is formed by HIGH pressure.</p>


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Lelantos wrote: »
    You don't have a point, you are arguing with yourself & providing sport for the rest of us. I don't feel threatened by religion, you seem to feel threatened by science & evolution though
    The Christian Faith threatens nobody ... including you ... so you are correct not to feel threatened by it.

    ... equally, Evolution may be wrong ... but it also threatens nobody including me!!!:)

    I guess its an I'm OK ... you're OK moment then!!!:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    maguffin wrote: »
    'Noun 1. hydraulic cement - a cement that hardens under water; made by heating limestone and clay in a kiln and pulverizing the result.' Interesting...it needs LIMESTONE...which we ALL know is a SEDIMENTARY ROCK, laid down over MILLIONS of years and is formed by HIGH pressure.</p>
    I thought you nearly 'got it' ... but then your 'millions of years' reflex kicked in!!!

    The point is that the limestone (and the cementing agents in other sedimentary rocks) ... is so pure (and would have set so fast), that the Calcium Carbonate that produced it all, had to be generated very rapidly and in vast volumes ... all over the Earth. The only plausible explantion is that it was generated by the catastrophic collapse of the underground water caverns when massive tectonic movement caused 'all the fountains of the great deep to break up' ... as is so eloquently described in Gen 7:11.
    The remnent of these underground caverns and some of the exit points for the high temperature Calcium Carbonate saturated waters that were released in the Flood is to be found in our limestone cave systems ... and the artesian basins of the World.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Gumbi wrote: »
    Didn't you know? All these fields of science aren't independently verifying each others' claims. No, no, no. Don't be naïve.

    It's a vast, intricately organised conspiracy to fool the world into believing a lie!
    ... if you say so!!!:):D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    J C wrote: »
    ... if you say so!!!:):D
    That is your hypothesis, right? I haven't mis-interpreted you?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭The Concrete Doctor


    JC, if that account is true and if as you say, all of the Earth was flooded, including mountains, then it would mean that every relatively low lying country we know today, would have been submerged beneath at least 8 kms of water. Europe, Australia and the Americas would have been submerged. But not just submerged, but in places, nearly as deep as the Marianas Trench. There would have been no differentiation between salt water and fresh water. That is just not believable.
    Apart from that though, we are constantly told that God is "all loving". How could an all loving God decide to wipe out every human on Earth, including innocent women and children.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭The Concrete Doctor


    J C wrote: »
    You're the guys with the obvious 'old wives tales' ... claiming that rocks, which have clearly formed by cementation, took millions of years and mega-bars of pressure to set ... when any child can tell you that hydraulic cement sets in a matter of hours ... even under water!!!!
    Actually, there are many types of cement. Usually, if they are placed under water, especially any kind of turbulent water, wash out will occur. This is where the cement particles are removed from the mix and it may not actually set properly. This whole argument is simplistic and ridiculous. I hope you guys are not engineers who design bridges. That would be pretty disastrous.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Gumbi wrote: »
    That is your hypothesis, right? I haven't mis-interpreted you?
    It isn't actually ... it's more like 'group think' in action.:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Actually, there are many types of cement. Usually, if they are placed under water, especially any kind of turbulent water, wash out will occur. This is where the cement particles are removed from the mix and it may not actually set properly. This whole argument is simplistic and ridiculous. I hope you guys are not engineers who design bridges. That would be pretty disastrous.
    Great to have a Concrete Doctor ... to tell us all about cement.
    ... so how do you think the cement got into all sedimentary rocks?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    JC, if that account is true and if as you say, all of the Earth was flooded, including mountains, then it would mean that every relatively low lying country we know today, would have been submerged beneath at least 8 kms of water. Europe, Australia and the Americas would have been submerged. But not just submerged, but in places, nearly as deep as the Marianas Trench.
    The mountains currently on Earth were volcanically thrust up after the Flood ... so the water levels were more like 2.5 Km.

    There would have been no differentiation between salt water and fresh water.
    That's true ... and that's why the diversity of fish life in fresh water is only a tiny fraction of the diversity in sea water. Only fish with the ability to survive in fresh and sea water colonised freshwater habitats after the Flood ... many have become freshwater obligates since then.
    Apart from that though, we are constantly told that God is "all loving". How could an all loving God decide to wipe out every human on Earth, including innocent women and children.
    God is both perfectly just ... as well as perfectly loving.
    The Flood is an example of His perfect justice in action.
    Because this is the Church era ... we can all avail of His perfect mercy ... and thereby receive His perfect love ... instead of His perfect justice ... by being Saved.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    J C wrote: »
    God is both perfectly just ... as well as perfectly loving.
    The Flood is an example of His perfect justice in action.
    Because this is the Church era ... we can all avail of His perfect mercy ... and thereby receive His perfect love ... instead of His perfect justice ... by being Saved.

    Last time I checked drowining an entire population isnt just.


    Last time I checked , drowning your children wasnt just

    Last time i checked, worship me or else Ill punish you and possibly kill you, isnt really just either, though I could be wrong


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Sin City wrote: »
    Last time I checked drowining an entire population isnt just.


    Last time I checked , drowning your children wasnt just

    Last time i checked, worship me or else Ill punish you and possibly kill you, isnt really just either, though I could be wrong
    As a general rule ... you would be correct ... however, this was how the situation was described immediately before the Flood:-
    Gen 6:5-6 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    J C wrote: »
    As a general rule ... you would be correct ... however, this was how the situation was described immediately before the Flood:-
    Gen 6:5-6 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    really , every single.person was evil ? new borns , toddlers, children ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭The Concrete Doctor


    J C wrote: »
    The mountains currently on Earth were volcanically thrust up after the Flood ... so the water levels were more like 2.5 Km.


    That's true ... and that's why the diversity of fish life in fresh water is only a tiny fraction of the diversity in sea water. Only fish with the ability to survive in fresh and sea water colonised freshwater habitats after the Flood ... many have become freshwater obligates since then.
    God is both perfectly just ... as well as perfectly loving.
    The Flood is an example of His perfect justice in action.
    Because this is the Church era ... we can all avail of His perfect mercy ... and thereby receive His perfect love ... instead of His perfect justice ... by being Saved.
    Wow, this is an interesting take on lots of topics. Lets start with the fish. Are you saying they EVOLVED???? Surely not evolution!

    If perfect love involves killing very young people, 'cause you are not pleased with the actions of their parents, then count me out of ever being involved with that kind of love. I have a name for someone like that, and it sure isn't loving.

    Where in the bible does it say that the mountains, like Everest, were pushed up during the flood. I'm just curious about that one. I really don't know the answer, genuinely.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,610 ✭✭✭ArtSmart


    J C wrote: »
    It isn't actually ... it's more like 'group think' in action.:)
    Did Jesus say anything about Dinosaur meat (eating it wise) or where had they died out by then?

    I can see them eating the dinosaur eggs alright, but the meat? whaozah.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,610 ✭✭✭ArtSmart


    J C wrote: »
    As a general rule ... you would be correct ... however, this was how the situation was described immediately before the Flood:-
    Gen 6:5-6 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
    well one man's evil and all that.

    besides wouldnt they have killed themselves through excess n stuff?

    i mean why poop the party when the beer is sure to run out?

    you know?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭TheBegotten


    I'm aware I may be dragging up an old argument, but can someone tell me where evolution and thermodynamics tie together?
    And to add my opinions to the mix, Old Testament God seems to be an abusive power figure, intent on seeing how far he could push us. Why else would someone stifle curiosity, one of the key signs of intelligence in any species?
    God creates Eden. God places Adam, then Eve, in the Garden with the tree of knowledge. The serpent comes along, tempts Eve and God casts them out, punishing Satan for the gift of curiosity.
    I'd like to parrallel this to the story of Prometheus. He was a titan, one of the ancient beings that ruled before the time of the Olympian gods of Greece. During the war between titans and gods Prometheus sided with the gods. When the war ended Zeus rewarded him by making him the guardian oc fire. Prometheus, ever the rebel, shared fire with the humans, thus making them intelligent. I doubt anyone can argue against saying fire was humanity's first discovery, thus making us that little bit divine.
    Fire represents curiosity in that tale. Curiosity is the forerunner for intelligence, and in both tales, the divine power doesn't want us to have it (Zeus banished Prometheus to Tartarus, where his regenerating liver was pecked out every day for eternity).
    I for one don't think any god who would begrudge us our ability to think is worth worshiping.

    Just as an afternote, they had drugs and exxageration back then too. How accurate would you consider a factual news report that origanated several thousand years ago and existed only in oral form for most of that time?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭TheBegotten


    J C wrote: »
    ... as an experiment ... take some sand ... put half of it in an oven ... and then put it into a vice.
    ... take the other half and mix it with water and cement ... and see which half forms a rock-like mass within, say a week!!!:)
    That was a lot of ignorance in one small post. Accepting a timeline of <10000 years, your idea would be perfectly reasonable. It'd be more like a year than a week, but its still acceptible. However...
    1. Cement is artificial. It requires a kiln and crushed LIMESTONE or other sedimentry rocks...so that argument is self defeating.
    2. Natural cements: These are organic products requiring organisms to produce them. Its like saying chlorophyll occured naturally and plants got it afterwards. Not a great comparison, I know.
    Whereas given a timeline of 10 million years...
    Assumption 1: We're playing by conventional evolutionary theory - life is already at full tilt and has been for the last billion years.
    1. Nutrients/minerals: Most, if not all, common organic compounds have been formed. This includes CO2, C6H12O6 (glucose), etc. This allows for the mass natural formation of Calcides and Chlorides to make sedimentary rocks.
    2. Increased time means increased chance. Logic at its simplest.
    3. The difference between manufactured diamonds and natural ones. Chemically the same, same process. However, the millions of years of pressure allow for imperfections to be ironed out and structual patterns to become aligned due to harmonic frequencies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    philologos wrote: »
    That's also not true! The first account we have of the crucifixion and resurrection were written in 55AD in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. Impressive since Paul was a convert to Christ. Now we know that the gospel which is mentioned in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was preached in the early church before Paul. Moreover if you read Paul's conversion account in Galatians you'll see a timeline in years from Paul's conversion to the writing of Galatians.

    I'm sorry but this cannot be true.

    Firstly, Christianity as we know it today is Paul's codification of the gospel. Therefore we should ask how could Paul's gospel be preached before he even codified it?

    Next, it was 'The Rock', Peter, whom Jesus lived with and mentored. Why did he become subservient to Paul? Shouldn't Paul have designed Christianity under direct instruction from Peter.

    I mean, how did that first conversation between Paul and Peter go?

    "Hey Paul, I'm Peter and the last time I spoke to Jesus he gave me detailed instruction on how the spreading of the word should be achieved."

    "Hi Peter, nice to meet you. I've heard so much about you, all good mind. Anyway, I was on my way to Damascus, the festival was on, and I fancied partaking in some Christian bashing but then I bumped into Jesus and He explained everything to me. I had you guys all wrong and the old me is gone now. I even changed my name. To cut a long story short, there's been a change of plan. He wants me to codify the gospel."

    "Oh! Er... well. This seems most irregular, I must say. I was a favorite of His and He seemed quite clear and adamant about what he requires of me."

    "Well, He did say that you were too clever to be taken in by a charlatan and would need proof so He told me to say, 'Do you remember what you did before the cock crowed?'. He said you'd know what that meant and that you would know I speak with His authority. Is it some kind of private joke perh..."

    "Then it is true, you have seen the Master... Sir, I am honoured to be at your service. No sir, not a private joke. It's a bit embarassing actually... rather not talk about it. I must admit that I am a little disappointed to be demoted by history to merely an assistant."

    "Well, to be fair, a long career in drunken, loutish, murderous brutishness has given me experience that makes me better equipped than Barabus for negotiating with the San Hedron. You are better suited to dealing with the gentiles. Oh, and don't worry about the Romans."

    It's ironic really. Jesus is acknowledged as the founder of a church that collects money in its temples on the Sabbath.

    I reckon that Peter was frightened of Paul and allowed himself to be bullied out of his inheritance. Jesus must feel He was denied by Peter even after the cock had crowed.

    Anyway, why didn't Jesus remain on earth after His resurrection? Pontious Pilate would have been delighted to see Him again and would be more likely to lend his weight to Christianity.

    All I'm saying is that God, Jesus, Peter and Paul all seriously mismanaged the whole event. It could all have been done much more efficiently and could have served as a much better antidote to evil than it currently does.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    Evolution and thermodynamics: life on earth becomes more complex - entropy decreases - apparently in defiance of the second law of thermodynamics. However, this law applies to closed systems and the earth is not a closed system. In fact, part of our system is a massive ball of hydrogen and helium, increasing in entropy at an astounding rate.

    Evolution after the flood: assuming they don't really believe that the ark contained a pair of every animal, creationists have to accept not only evolution after the flood but a kind of accelerated super-evolution. A kind of evolutionary rate that we could observe in the lab on a routine basis.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    J C wrote: »
    The Christian Faith threatens nobody ...

    Does it not threaten non believers with eternal damnation?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    Andrewf20 wrote: »
    Does it not threaten non believers with eternal damnation?

    No, it threatens believers with damnation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    tommy2bad wrote: »

    No, it threatens believers with damnation.
    And non-believers? So I've been told...or threatened...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Wow, this is an interesting take on lots of topics. Lets start with the fish. Are you saying they EVOLVED???? Surely not evolution!
    Natural selection of previously existing created genetic diversity.
    If perfect love involves killing very young people, 'cause you are not pleased with the actions of their parents, then count me out of ever being involved with that kind of love. I have a name for someone like that, and it sure isn't loving.
    Like I have said already, the Flood was an example of God's perfect justice in action ... to access His love ... you'll need to repent and be Saved.
    Where in the bible does it say that the mountains, like Everest, were pushed up during the flood. I'm just curious about that one. I really don't know the answer, genuinely.
    It's a logical deduction ... the ocean waters are capable of covering mountains with altitude differentials of about 2.5 Km ... and the waters covered the entire earth ... and our current high mountains show evidence that they were created through volcanic activity and the surface of the earth is covered by sedimentary rocks, with the exception of the high mountains that apparently were thrust up after the flood.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    ArtSmart wrote: »
    well one man's evil and all that.

    besides wouldnt they have killed themselves through excess n stuff?

    i mean why poop the party when the beer is sure to run out?

    you know?
    ... they may indeed have 'cooked their own goose' by their excess ... which triggered the greatest environmental catastropy that the Earth has ever seen.
    ... and God simply left them to their own devices when the Flood was triggered.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Gumbi wrote: »
    And non-believers? So I've been told...or threatened...
    ... it's not a threat ... it's a logical deduction ... just like than telling somebody who is hitting their head against a wall, that they will get a headache, if they don't stop!!!:)

    ... you're not threatening them with a headache ... you're just merely pointing out that a headache will be the logical consequence of their actions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    That was a lot of ignorance in one small post. Accepting a timeline of <10000 years, your idea would be perfectly reasonable. It'd be more like a year than a week, but its still acceptible. However...
    1. Cement is artificial. It requires a kiln and crushed LIMESTONE or other sedimentry rocks...so that argument is self defeating.
    The crushed limestone is heated ... and voila ... add water and you have limestone (cement) again. and if you crushed the concrete again in a kiln ... you would produce cement. Its a circular chemical equation.
    2. Natural cements: These are organic products requiring organisms to produce them. Its like saying chlorophyll occured naturally and plants got it afterwards. Not a great comparison, I know.
    The total volume of organisms found in limestone are miniscule relatively speaking ... Indeed, nothing living could survive the highly caustic environment that would be present when limestones that are hundreds of metres deep were being created.

    Whereas given a timeline of 10 million years...
    Assumption 1: We're playing by conventional evolutionary theory - life is already at full tilt and has been for the last billion years.
    1. Nutrients/minerals: Most, if not all, common organic compounds have been formed. This includes CO2, C6H12O6 (glucose), etc. This allows for the mass natural formation of Calcides and Chlorides to make sedimentary rocks.
    99.999% of all limestone is pure chemical Calcium Carbonate ... with no evidence that it had an organic origin.


    2. Increased time means increased chance. Logic at its simplest.
    ... only if the event is possible in the first place ... and the spontaneous generation of life and CFSI are impossibilities.
    3. The difference between manufactured diamonds and natural ones. Chemically the same, same process. However, the millions of years of pressure allow for imperfections to be ironed out and structual patterns to become aligned due to harmonic frequencies.
    ... it used to be argued that the transformation of carbon into diamonds needed millions of years and mega pressures ... and then we discovered that they could be artificially produced in a few days using relatively ordinary pressures and tempratures.
    ... and similarly, it used to be argued that sedimentary rocks needed millions of years and mega pressures to form ... and then we discovered that they could be artificially produced in a few days using cement and aggregate at no pressure and room temprature.
    ... sounds like the 'millions of years' are looking very shaky indeed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    doctoremma wrote: »
    Evolution and thermodynamics: life on earth becomes more complex - entropy decreases - apparently in defiance of the second law of thermodynamics. However, this law applies to closed systems and the earth is not a closed system. In fact, part of our system is a massive ball of hydrogen and helium, increasing in entropy at an astounding rate.
    The Sun does increase entropy or disorder ... and all raw energy does the same ... think of fire - and a burning house, to see what I mean.
    Entropy is only observed to decrease (locally) with the employment of intelligently designed systems to harness raw energy to produce an increase in organised complex functional specific products ... think of a jet engine powering a plane or a living organism taking basic chemicals and turning them into complex products.
    doctoremma wrote: »
    Evolution after the flood: assuming they don't really believe that the ark contained a pair of every animal, creationists have to accept not only evolution after the flood but a kind of accelerated super-evolution. A kind of evolutionary rate that we could observe in the lab on a routine basis.
    Certainly rapid Natural Selection and speciation occurred using pre-existing genetic diversity occurred post the Flood.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    J C wrote: »
    The Sun does increase entropy or disorder ... and all raw energy does the same ... think of fire - and a burning house, to see what I mean.
    Entropy is only observed to decrease with the employment of intelligently designed systems to harness raw energy to produce an increase in organised complex functional specific products ... think of a jet engine powering a plane or a living organism taking basic chemicals and turning them into complex products.

    Certainly rapid Natural Selection and speciation occurred using pre-existing genetic diversity occurred post the Flood.
    ?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    doctoremma wrote: »
    Evolution and thermodynamics: life on earth becomes more complex - entropy decreases - apparently in defiance of the second law of thermodynamics. However, this law applies to closed systems and the earth is not a closed system. In fact, part of our system is a massive ball of hydrogen and helium, increasing in entropy at an astounding rate.

    I think it is fair to say that it is the rate of change of entropy of the sun that powers life.

    It is as if the sun is a battery and all life systems on earth are plugged into it. While there is power in the battery, these systems are buffered from entropy which is increasing as the battery goes flat. If the rate of change of entropy was different in the sun then the battery would be more or less powerful and life would have to evolve differently to how it has.

    When the battery goes flat the buffer disappears and the systems that were reliant on that energy find themselves abandoned to the effects of entropy.

    I imagine a large river with an infinite source eroding its way across the landscape. This erosion is is like entropy. It constantly reshapes the path of the river, always changing it, widening, deepening and never the other way around. Kind of like how time flows in only one direction. Even if you could make the river flow backwards, erosion will still occur, and the river would continue to deepen and widen.

    But there are certain places along the riverbank that because of turbulence in another part of the river are protected from the cutting flow of the water. The water is seemingly still here. It's not of course, water is flowing in and out of the area but in a structured way that directs the energy of the flow harmlessly away from erodable surfaces. But the slightest change in the flow of the river could change all that.

    In fact, I think that the existence of life on earth is no more remarkable than the calm pools that occur along the rapids.

    And I simply cannot see how the existence of life contravenes the 2nd LoT. When the sun dies, we die.


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