Plan to build $84 million Super Mosque in Dublin Ireland.

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Nobody has mentioned the call to prayer every day,someone think of the children!

There isn't one. DCC have advised that call to prayer is internal, inside the building, as per Clonskeagh.

old hippy wrote: »

jmayo wrote: »

Converts to anything are always the worst.
They have a point to prove.

BTW where exactly is this mosque going to be ?
Just wondering becuase as sure as hell the US is going to be moving in next door keeping an eye on it.

How so? Why?

If you plan on building one of the biggest mosques in Europe then I can see how the US and every other Western government that have been targets for muslim nutjobs would be very interested.
And no I am not syaing every muslim that attends a mosque is a nutjob bent on destruction of the west, but a lot of the ones that are have formulated their views in mosques where they have been exposed to certain teachings.

Look at who has been linked to the islamic centre in Clonskeagh.

And it aint just the Americans who have take exception to some of the people linked to our exsiting Irish mosques.

A CONTROVERSIAL Muslim cleric with links to the Clonskeagh mosque in Dublin has been told he is not welcome in France after President Nicolas Sarkozy announced plans to crack down on the dissemination of radical Islamist ideas.

Yusuf al-Qaradawi, an Egyptian-born religious scholar who is based in Qatar and is considered a spiritual guide of the Muslim Brotherhood, was due to attend a conference in Paris next month organised by the Union of French Islamic Organisations.

In the late 1990s, Mr Qaradawi established the European Council for Fatwa and Research – a group of scholars that issues religious opinions, or fatwas, on practical matters specific to Muslims in Europe. The council is based at the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland in Clonskeagh and the imam there, Egyptian-born Hussein Halawa, is the council’s secretary.

Mr Qaradawi was denied a visa to visit Britain in 2008 on grounds of seeking to “justify acts of terrorist violence or disburse views that could foster inter-community violence”, the British government said at the time.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0327/1224313954230.html

US accused mosques of extremist connections
The cables, dating from July 2006, strongly linked the biggest mosque, the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland (ICCI), to the conservative Muslim Brotherhood, which is headed by the controversial cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi.

Dublin embassy officials compiled the dossier in response to questions from the US State Department regarding a Dublin-based Islamic body, the European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFR) and influential Muslim leaders in Ireland.

The cable closely links the ICCI, and its imam, Shaykh Hussein Muhammad Halawa, to ECFR, which it said was based in the ICCI, in Clonskeagh, south Dublin.

It also claimed that despite Imam Halawa’s public criticism of the London bombings of 2005 the ICCI employed as a religious teacher Abderrahmane Katrani, an Afghanistan veteran and Moroccan national wanted by the Government of Morocco for the 2003 Casablanca bombings.

In a statement, an ICCI spokesman said the ECFR and the ICCI were "two independent organisations". He confirmed the imam was the current secretary general of the ECFR.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2011/0429/ireland/us-accused-mosques-of-extremist-connections-152896.html

I think we as a state need to be wary.
That doesn't mean we should be racist bigots, but it also doesn't mean we should dismiss anyone with concerns.
The typical Irish attitude of "shure it'll be alright" could bite us in the ass.
We always need to be careful about the growth of any group who view our form of government and freedom as something to be destroyed, all the while using that freedom to slowly achieve their aims.
It was something we had to be very aware of it with our own homegrown terrorists in the latter half of the 20th century.

We have to learn from our neighbours and we can't afford to suddenly wake up in 30 years time to news that we have home grown Irishmen somewhere on the planet fighting in a jihadist war possibly against our own soldiers.
And that is something the British have experienced.
Assuming Irish soldiers are in a European army or Rangers on secondment with some other force.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The US government must have incredible resources at it's disposal if it can dispatch teams to keep an eye on every mosque.

They only need to watch certain ones and an Irish mosque, the islamic centre in Clonskeagh has already appeared on their radar.

Do I want a big fook off Mosque in Ireland ?
No.
Do I want big fook off Cathedrals in Ireland belonging to a decrepit organisation that has covered wholesale abuse of children throughout the world ?
No.

MrD012, please answer the questions:

1) Have you ever lived in the UK, if so, what part?

2) Have you ever visited the UK, if so, what part.

skD13 wrote: »

Hey irishconvert,

Can I assume you are Muslim yes? Good to have actual Muslims on here debating this issue.

Can I ask you a genuine question. Regarding jmayo's post above on Yusuf al-Qaradawi. I have read articles on this guy before. Do you think it is a bad idea of Muslims in Ireland, via organizations located at the Clonskeagh centre, to be associated with the likes of this guy? Does it not cause problems for Islam and lead to accusations like Muslims are experiencing here from posters like MrD?

Why is the likes of this guy not renounced? He seems to be courting controversy that I imagine the majority of ordinary Muslims don't need.

I'd like an answer because as someone broadly welcoming of this development, I am not sure what to say when I hear about this guy as it does unnerve me and make me start to question?

Thanks in advance.

Hi,

To be honest I don't know anything about Yusuf al-Qaradawi as I don't live in Dublin. However I am always wary of the phrase "has links to" as there never seems to be any evidence provided as to what those links acutally are.

If you can give me a few links to reliable information on the guy I will read it and give you my opinion.

EDIT: The Irish Times article linked to has no actual quotes from Yusuf al-Qaradawi. It looks like a copy and paste from Associated Press or Reuters, something the lazy Irish media do all the time. Wish they would do their own investigations and write their own articles?

I have seen Muslim scholars quoted out of context many times in the media and in press releases from the UK government so I take any media reports with a pinch of salt. I would want to read his exact words before I can tell you what I think of the guy.

irishconvert wrote: »

Will you please please please educate yourself and find out about real life Muslims.

but I have , I have studied various reputable articles and reports about the effects of Islamic culture in the UK society and it does not look good

I appreciate that as a Muslim you are protecting your own as to speak but really you have not confronted any of the issues I have raised in previous linked articles such as discrimination of women in sharah council rulings , child brides , arranged marriages , radicalisation etc etc etc . you have yet to provide any documented evidence that suggests any of the articles or reports I have linked to are untrue.

JustinDee wrote: »

Y
There is a book I recommend to folk regularly here and it is by Nick Davies. Called 'Flat Earth News', it is an excellent study in how certain media behaves and has an interesting two chapters on how to read an article from the likes of the Mail or Telegraph.

if you looked at my posts you would see there was also links to Articles in the Guardian. Apart from that are you suggesting everything we read in the tabloids is lies ?

MrD012 wrote: »

but I have , I have studied various reputable articles and reports about the effects of Islamic culture in the UK society and it does not look good

I appreciate that as a Muslim you are protecting your own as to speak but really you have not confronted any of the issues I have raised in previous linked articles such as discrimination of women in sharah council rulings , child brides , arranged marriages , radicalisation etc etc etc . you have yet to provide any documented evidence that suggests any of the articles or reports I have linked to are untrue.

You have continualy ignored the fact that the private arbitration laws in the UK, are you know an UK law, and as such have 0 bearing on Ireland. You also ignore that Muslims aren't the only one who use them as well. You also ignore that they existed 100 year before the vast majortiy of the UKs Muslims arrived. You seem intent on blaming Muslims on a UK system, that they didn't create, but are using like other groups are similarly using.

skD13 wrote: »

Thanks irishconvert. OK. Here is a link with some information on the European Council for Fatwa and Research, located in Dublin at the Clonskeagh centre. http://www.euro-muslim.com/en_u_foundation_details.aspx?news_id=343

It's president, listed here is this guy:

1. Professor Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, President of ECFR (Egypt, Qatar)

I only skimmed the objectives, seem fine and I guess beneficial to Muslims.

So there's the pretty concrete link to Al-Qaradawi and the Clonskeagh mosque. He is not based in Ireland but he is head of an organisation based here.

So in that Irish Times article that jmayo linked to above it states he was denied entry to France and Britain. The article states:

"Mr Qaradawi was denied a visa to visit Britain in 2008 on grounds of seeking to “justify acts of terrorist violence or disburse views that could foster inter-community violence”, the British government said at the time."

This Independent article reporting the same entry bans says that he "has defended suicide bombing and advocated the death penalty for homosexuals. "... and the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland wouldn't denounce him.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fatwa-sheikh-with-links-to-irish-muslims-is-refused-visa-2842247.html

Here is a BBC article re. his views on suicide bombings and actually quotes him. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3874893.stm

And a here is a Guardain article on his view on female genital mutilation. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/oct/15/female-genital-mutilation-yusuf-al-qaradawi

Anyway, back to my question and I admit I am just playing devil's advocate here as this is the kind of thing that gets thrown out as arguments for protesting the building of another mosque/cultural centre in Dublin; Would the majority of ordinary Muslims denounce the likes of this fellow and are they concerned that he heads this ECFR in Clonskeagh. Seems like bad PR to me. Is this not embarrassing for Muslims to have to deflect suspicions due to senior clerics like this heading official Muslim organizations and getting banned from countries like the UK and France?

To me it looks bad and it make me ask questions of the intentions of Islamic leaders in this country and beyond.

And of course, I admit, clerics can be a world away from the average adherent to a religion. But I do feel like this stuff needs to be teased out a little. The newspaper articles seem pretty objective.

Have you enough to go on now re. this guy to suss him out? He appears on a TV show on Al Jazeera as well I believe.

Thanks

Ok, well I strongly disagree with his view on FGM, as do all Muslims I know at least. As for his comment on suicide bombing, the BBC article says

He has distanced himself from suicide attacks in the West but he has consistently defended Palestinian suicide attacks against Israelis.

Recently he told Al-Jazeera that he was not alone in believing that suicide bombings in Palestinian territories were a legitimate form of self defence for people who have no aircraft or tanks.

Directly quoting Al Qaradawi

Through his (Allah) infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have and and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do

So he is referring to people who are using suicide bombing to defend themselves from attacks as they have no other means. They can't compete with fighter jets dropping bombs from the sky and bombing them back to the stone age.

Do you see or agree with his point of view in any way?

It is double standards to condemn him and disassociate with him for what he said if you don't also do the same to the other side who are attacking and killing civillians in Pakistan.

Fromthetrees wrote: »

irishconvert, feel free to correct me here but didn't Mohammed take a child bride during his lifetime

That is disputed, many scholars believe Aisha was 16 at the time of marriage. In Islam you cannot marry a girl unless she can give consent, and a child is not capable of giving consent as they have not reached the age of reason. So it would be an illegal marriage.

Fromthetrees wrote: »

and isn't the testimony of a woman worth half that of a man.

I believe that is true but it is not an area I have looked into in any detail.

Originally Posted by MrD012


the pro-mosque side tend to be libertarians , people who believe that everyone is allowed to express their freedoms even if it offends others .

Well that's a first. No one has ever mistaken me for a Libertarian before :eek:.
(bluewolf - you reading this??? Seems I've crossed over to your side and I didn't even know it.)

Usually on this forum Libertarians accuse me of being to the left of Joe Higgins - which is equally incorrect.

Like Benny I am neither pro- mosque or anti-mosque. I am anti sweeping negative statements being made about a diverse group of people and believe that just as I have a right to my (lack of) religious beliefs- equally religious folk have a right to their beliefs. Neither I nor they have the right to impose our beliefs on the other.

I also believe religious belief should not be allowed to dictate civil legislation.

If that is 'Libertarian' than colour me blue, it will make a nice change from Pinko lefty.

JustinDee wrote: »

Great, we're back in 1940s Ireland again, only Jews are now replaced by Muslims as the object of irrational mistrust.

Err... no.

1940s Ireland was a Catholic Ireland for a Catholic people.

I'm secular and believe that individuals should pursue any belief they want; just not create distinct communities within Ireland.

irishconvert wrote:

Discrimination against women is NOT allowed in Islam.

This sentence is silly in the extreme.

Discrimination against women is not allowed in any religion, yet is persecuted all the time in the name of said religions. The more extreme the adoption of a religion the more frequent certain characteristics emerge concerning restriction on sports and games, persecution of women, restriction of free speech, xenophobia, strict observance of customs concerning certain foodstuffs or avoidance of particular activities on certain days of the week. The particulars vary from religion to religion and the manner in which people follow their faith.

It would have been unheard of of someone putting out washing in Ireland on a Sunday 50 years ago, in Afghanistan under the Taliban football was banned, until recently at least in Saudi Arabia women could not go out without a male escort.

Frank Grimes wrote: »

[...]is not accurate. It may explain the motivations of certain suicide bombers individually but as a whole it is just another tactic that insurgent groups use. The PKK are a Marxist group and they have used it, the Tamil Tigers were (predominantly at least) Hindu and they have also used it - both separatist groups and neither religiously orientated [...]

I don't believe that someone who is a separatist will deliberately commit suicide in the name of his cause without there being a religious motivation. I had already pointed out the PKK and Tamils (albeit not actually naming them) - although the PKK are a damn odd lot because most of the Kurd separatists are Sunnis but their organisation is nominally Marxist; I'd have to do a good bit more research into this weirdness to comment with confidence but I would suspect that it could have something to do with Turkey's secular constitution coupled with close proximity to the (now gone) Iron Curtain.

The question to a certain extent is 'are there good religions and bad religions?' - in my view Christianity, Islam and Judaism are very similar in scope and vision; they stem from the same source and their doctrinal distinctions have relatively little bearing on the manner in which their respective followers lead their lives. Did Cromwell ban Christmas because he was a Christian? (He felt the celebration cheapened the spiritual meaning of Christ's birth, or whatever) Technically yes, but in practice it was because he was a bit of a nut-job. In general the manner in which people follow their faith is dependent far more on the cultural morés of their country rather than their religion - Ireland is almost just as Catholic today as it was 70 years ago - but there is nevertheless a world of difference between the two.

The truth is that a great many countries which are Muslim do not share Western views (I by no means believe that they should be forced to - in fact attempts to coerce countries to think the way you do can have a detrimental effect). A consequence of this is a great divergence in the way that the respective cultures think - it would be an anathema to anyone in this country the idea of stoning to death a mentally handicapped minor on the suspicion that they may have desecrated a Bible for instance.