The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Gerry T · 10-10-2012 12:17PM

How large would the Ark have to be to carry all those animals & food for the flood duration, I guess God helped out by getting all the animals from all continents, but im guessing the ship was enormous, has anyone tried to calculate that ?

Lelantos · 10-10-2012 12:31PM

Gerry T wrote: »

How large would the Ark have to be to carry all those animals & food for the flood duration, I guess God helped out by getting all the animals from all continents, but im guessing the ship was enormous, has anyone tried to calculate that ?

If I remember my fairytales it was 300 cubits long & 50 wide. Now, people will argue about how big a cubit is, but its a Greek & Roman measure of approx 18".. So, the ark was 450 feet long. Now this doesn't seem like much, but bear in mind, Europe, the Americas, the poles & australasia hadn't been discovered then. More than enough room for everything in that case!

Zombrex · 10-10-2012 02:07PM

systemsready wrote: »

Personally I would agree with the receding underground theory, and probably burning itself away when the molten lava touched it.
Details are not what matters here.
Because as you know..."The devil is in the detail". If you have a belief that is the foundation of your entire being, and you trust the messengers (prophets) of that belief. Then if a non believer comes and tells you that what happened is an impossibility (their opinion only) . Then you look at what you have as a believer, and you also look at what the unbeliever has, and you compare, you say to yourself, If I 'trust' the so called evidence of today (which may change in the future) and abandon those Prophets who have shown me the bigger picture, what will I become? A lump of meaningless flesh on the earth!

So you are basically admitting to only believing all this stuff because, in your opinion, it gives your life meaning and without it you would be lost?

By that logic every religion the world must be true. I better go dust of my space suit for when the Heaven's Gate UFO returns to take us all off to the planet Xla'dau. :rolleyes:

systemsready · 10-10-2012 02:18PM

Zombrex wrote: »

So you are basically admitting to only believing all this stuff because, in your opinion, it gives your life meaning and without it you would be lost?

By that logic every religion the world must be true. I better go dust of my space suit for when the Heaven's Gate UFO returns to take us all off to the planet Xla'dau. :rolleyes:

Not true at all. You must start with 2 options. Is there a God or isn't there?
Saying "I don't know" is cowardly and lazy and means you are not willing to face either option.
Now ask yourself.."Is there a God or isn't there?"
I did that and I discovered through reasoning that indeed there is a God, the One who brought this Universe into existence. (What did you discover? That there isn't a God?)
Anyway , discovering God through reason is the first step on the path to truth. So everything presented to you afterwards must be assessed by reason . So if I am presented with an option that a 6 armed elephant is God, I dismiss it outright.
Same goes for all religions, however, when presented with the Abrahamic faith , you realise that therein is the secret to life. The teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammed are all the same, The truth is in there if you want iot, if you dont want it, then switch off your brain .

Gumbi · 10-10-2012 02:30PM

systemsready wrote: »

Zombrex wrote: »

So you are basically admitting to only believing all this stuff because, in your opinion, it gives your life meaning and without it you would be lost?

By that logic every religion the world must be true. I better go dust of my space suit for when the Heaven's Gate UFO returns to take us all off to the planet Xla'dau. :rolleyes:

Not true at all. You must start with 2 options. Is there a God or isn't there?
Saying "I don't know" is cowardly and lazy and means you are not willing to face either option.
Now ask yourself.."Is there a God or isn't there?"
I did that and I discovered through reasoning that indeed there is a God, the One who brought this Universe into existence. (What did you discover? That there isn't a God?)
Anyway , discovering God through reason is the first step on the path to truth. So everything presented to you afterwards must be assessed by reason . So if I am presented with an option that a 6 armed elephant is God, I dismiss it outright.
Same goes for all religions, however, when presented with the Abrahamic faith , you realise that therein is the secret to life. The teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammed are all the same, The truth is in there if you want iot, if you dont want it, then switch off your brain .

Let's try something else. You have two options. Are there unicorns, or are there not unicorns. Answer the question. My answer: I don't know. But I find no reason to believe that there are. Now you try.

shizz · 10-10-2012 02:31PM

systemsready wrote: »

Zombrex wrote: »

So you are basically admitting to only believing all this stuff because, in your opinion, it gives your life meaning and without it you would be lost?

By that logic every religion the world must be true. I better go dust of my space suit for when the Heaven's Gate UFO returns to take us all off to the planet Xla'dau. :rolleyes:

Not true at all. You must start with 2 options. Is there a God or isn't there?
Saying "I don't know" is cowardly and lazy and means you are not willing to face either option.
Now ask yourself.."Is there a God or isn't there?"
I did that and I discovered through reasoning that indeed there is a God, the One who brought this Universe into existence. (What did you discover? That there isn't a God?)
Anyway , discovering God through reason is the first step on the path to truth. So everything presented to you afterwards must be assessed by reason . So if I am presented with an option that a 6 armed elephant is God, I dismiss it outright.
Same goes for all religions, however, when presented with the Abrahamic faith , you realise that therein is the secret to life. The teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammed are all the same, The truth is in there if you want iot, if you dont want it, then switch off your brain .

Id be interested in hearing your reasoning that led you to the conclusion where you "know" that there is a god. In fact the I dont know option is the most logical because we can never truely know, just think which is more likely.

The truth is in the science if you want it. you dont want it because you see it as a danger to your faith so you choose to switch your brain off.

The beauty of verified science is it's true wether you choose to believe it or not.

tommy2bad · 10-10-2012 02:34PM

Zombrex;
I better go dust of my space suit for when the Heaven's Gate UFO returns to take us all off to the planet Xla'dau.

http://voices.yahoo.com/comet-coming-next-year-may-brighter-than-moon-11794918.html:eek::eek::eek:
You never know!

systemsready · 10-10-2012 02:39PM

Gumbi wrote: »

Let's try something else. You have two options. Are there unicorns, or are there not unicorns. Answer the question. My answer: I don't know. But I find no reason to believe that there are. Now you try.

There are no unicorns now, there may well have been in the past. Thats a simple deduction. So you are saying that because we have not discovered the bones of a unicorn, there never were any?, What if they discover these bones long after you pass away, that will mean you spent your whole life in doubt. You couldn't bring yourself to decide based on what evidence you have presented to you, albeit small, nevertheless its all you are going to get.

Lelantos · 10-10-2012 02:39PM

shizz wrote: »

systemsready wrote: »

Zombrex wrote: »

So you are basically admitting to only believing all this stuff because, in your opinion, it gives your life meaning and without it you would be lost?

By that logic every religion the world must be true. I better go dust of my space suit for when the Heaven's Gate UFO returns to take us all off to the planet Xla'dau. :rolleyes:

Not true at all. You must start with 2 options. Is there a God or isn't there?
Saying "I don't know" is cowardly and lazy and means you are not willing to face either option.
Now ask yourself.."Is there a God or isn't there?"
I did that and I discovered through reasoning that indeed there is a God, the One who brought this Universe into existence. (What did you discover? That there isn't a God?)
Anyway , discovering God through reason is the first step on the path to truth. So everything presented to you afterwards must be assessed by reason . So if I am presented with an option that a 6 armed elephant is God, I dismiss it outright.
Same goes for all religions, however, when presented with the Abrahamic faith , you realise that therein is the secret to life. The teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammed are all the same, The truth is in there if you want iot, if you dont want it, then switch off your brain .

Id be interested in hearing your reasoning that led you to the conclusion where you "know" that there is a god. In fact the I dont know option is the most logical because we can never truely know, just think which is more likely.

The truth is in the science if you want it. you dont want it because you see it as a danger to your faith so you choose to switch your brain off.

The beauty of verified science is it's true wether you choose to believe it or not.

I think anybody who looks at the world realistically & scientifically knows that all 2400+ gods that have ever been are superstitious nonsense. But, live & let live, they don't ram their religion down my throat I don't show them my coccyx

systemsready · 10-10-2012 02:43PM

shizz wrote: »

Id be interested in hearing your reasoning that led you to the conclusion where you "know" that there is a god. In fact the I dont know option is the most logical because we can never truely know, just think which is more likely.

The truth is in the science if you want it. you dont want it because you see it as a danger to your faith so you choose to switch your brain off.

The beauty of verified science is it's true wether you choose to believe it or not.

Part of my reasoning is based upon what alternatives there are to a Creator. We have not many alternatives, but one of them says that all what exists simply happened by chance (Absurd)
So by process of elimination, I deduct that indeed the Universe was brought into existence by a Power who reveals Himself to mankind though signs. And the signs are there if one chooses to look. Once you notice the signs you then find confirmation that your deduction was indeed correct. Indisputable.

Bythe way...Science and faith go hand in hand for me...no difference at all.

Zombrex · 10-10-2012 02:45PM

systemsready wrote: »

Not true at all. You must start with 2 options. Is there a God or isn't there?
Saying "I don't know" is cowardly and lazy and means you are not willing to face either option.

How cowardly or lazy I am (or am not) has no baring on what I can or can't know.

Is there a Jupiter sized planet orbit UMi B, the second star of the North Star system. And don't say "I don't know", that is just lazy! :rolleyes:

systemsready wrote: »

I did that and I discovered through reasoning that indeed there is a God, the One who brought this Universe into existence. (What did you discover? That there isn't a God?)

I discovered that people make up stuff that they want to belief is true.

systemsready wrote: »

Anyway , discovering God through reason is the first step on the path to truth.

I'm going to go out on a limb and state categorically that what ever reason you used to prove to yourself that God exists is deeply flawed reasoning.

systemsready wrote: »

So everything presented to you afterwards must be assessed by reason . So if I am presented with an option that a 6 armed elephant is God, I dismiss it outright.
Same goes for all religions, however, when presented with the Abrahamic faith , you realise that therein is the secret to life. The teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammed are all the same, The truth is in there if you want iot, if you dont want it, then switch off your brain .

The teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are not all the same, which is why you have Jews and Christians and Muslims, who more than often are quite happy to kill each other over the differences.

Also, why wouldn't god have 6 arms? How is this any more ridiculous than him having human like thoughts and emotions?

systemsready · 10-10-2012 02:47PM

Lelantos wrote: »

I think anybody who looks at the world realistically & scientifically knows that all 2400+ gods that have ever been are superstitious nonsense. But, live & let live, they don't ram their religion down my throat I don't show them my coccyx

There has only ever been One God.
But there have been many false gods that men have tried to worship...and I'm sure its a lot more than 2400+

Zombrex · 10-10-2012 02:48PM

systemsready wrote: »

Part of my reasoning is based upon what alternatives there are to a Creator. We have not many alternatives, but one of them says that all what exists simply happened by chance (Absurd)

So by that logic God can't exist, since if he does exist he just exists, by chance. There just happens to be a god, rather than not a god, for no reason. It just happens to be the way things are. And thus everything that follows from that is equally simply a product of there just happening to being a god.

Like I suspected your reasoning is deeply flawed. If you can accept that God just exists you can accept than anything can just exist.

systemsready · 10-10-2012 02:49PM

Zombrex wrote: »

How cowardly or lazy I am (or am not) has no baring on what I can or can't know.

Is there a Jupiter sized planet orbit UMi B, the second star of the North Star system. And don't say "I don't know", that is just lazy! :rolleyes:

I discovered that people make up stuff that they want to belief is true.

I'm going to go out on a limb and state categorically that what ever reason you used to prove to yourself that God exists is deeply flawed reasoning.

The teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are not all the same, which is why you have Jews and Christians and Muslims, who more than often are quite happy to kill each other over the differences.

Also, why wouldn't god have 6 arms? How is this any more ridiculous than him having human like thoughts and emotions?

The original teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammed were all the same, all from One God, however, man has tampered with God's words in the meantime.
You are getting everything second and third hand.

systemsready · 10-10-2012 02:52PM

Zombrex wrote: »

So by that logic God can't exist, since if he does exist he just exists, by chance. There just happens to be a god, rather than not a god, for no reason. It just happens to be the way things are. And thus everything that follows from that is equally simply a product of there just happening to being a god.

Like I suspected your reasoning is deeply flawed. If you can accept that God just exists you can accept than anything can just exist.

I do not question the existence of God, I question the existence of the |Universe, and as I question I realise that it could not have come about by chance. Therefore the only alternative is that it was Created. Now we can ask ..what Force could possibly be powerful enough to create such a thing.
We must say it is an All Powerful, All Knowing Being.
Even Time was created by Him, therefore He is not subject to Time...which means we will never come to an understanding of Him. Nevertheless we must acknowledge His presence.

Zombrex · 10-10-2012 02:53PM

systemsready wrote: »

The original teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammed were all the same, all from One God, however, man has tampered with God's words in the meantime.

The teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammed, which I'm guessing you haven't actually studied, are mutually exclusive (ie they can't all be right, someone must be wrong since they claim different things.

Unless you have some copy of the Bible and Quaran that no one else has access to that is closer to the true word of GOd.

systemsready wrote: »

You are getting everything second and third hand.

And you aren't ... ?

You aren't going to be another person who claims they speak directly to God are you?

shizz · 10-10-2012 02:53PM

systemsready wrote: »

shizz wrote: »

Id be interested in hearing your reasoning that led you to the conclusion where you "know" that there is a god. In fact the I dont know option is the most logical because we can never truely know, just think which is more likely.

The truth is in the science if you want it. you dont want it because you see it as a danger to your faith so you choose to switch your brain off.

The beauty of verified science is it's true wether you choose to believe it or not.

Part of my reasoning is based upon what alternatives there are to a Creator. We have not many alternatives, but one of them says that all what exists simply happened by chance (Absurd)
So by process of elimination, I deduct that indeed the Universe was brought into existence by a Power who reveals Himself to mankind though signs. And the signs are there if one chooses to look. Once you notice the signs you then find confirmation that your deduction was indeed correct. Indisputable.

Why is it absurd? What reasoning do you have for it being so? I could direct you to an article on a paper which shows that recent research indicates that in the quantum world an effect can have happened due to itself. Cause and effect in that case are one in the same.

Its a huge step to go from a creator to a creator who also interfers by using signs. Not to mention how ridiculous it is to say that he needs to use signs which arent obvious, you have to want to find then to find them. Convenient isnt it? What are these signs? Jesus appears in my toast?

In no way is that indisputable evidence.

systemsready · 10-10-2012 02:58PM

Zombrex wrote: »

The teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammed, which I'm guessing you haven't actually studied, are mutually exclusive (ie they can't all be right, someone must be wrong since they claim different things.

Unless you have some copy of the Bible and Quaran that no one else has access to that is closer to the true word of GOd.

And you aren't ... ?

You aren't going to be another person who claims they speak directly to God are you?

Again it is by deduction, for example, Moses said God forbade pork and insisted on circumcision, Jesus said live by the commandments of God , Muhammed said God forbade pork and insisted on circumcision. . Therefore, even though Christianity has abandoned these rules, we can deduct that the rules are indeed forever. Never changing. When we find a constant, we can use that to reflect about other things.

Zombrex · 10-10-2012 02:59PM

systemsready wrote: »

I do not question the existence of God

You don't? So when you said this -

Now ask yourself.."Is there a God or isn't there?"
I did that and I discovered through reasoning that indeed there is a God, the One who brought this Universe into existence.

what? you were lying? Messing? Pulling my finger?

systemsready wrote: »

I question the existence of the |Universe, and as I question I realise that it could not have come about by chance.

Why? You accept that God just exists. Why can't the universe (or anything for that matter) not also just exist?

You believe an unbelievably powerful omnipotent intelligent deity just happens to exist. But the universe, which by definition is infinitely less perfect that God himself, can't just exist it must have been created.

What? God is too perfect to have been created, he can just exist? Arguing that a perfect deity can just exist but an imperfect universe must be created is deeply deeply flawed logic.

Again your reasoning is nonsense. You believe what you believe because you want it to be true, not because you reasoned that it is true.

systemsready · 10-10-2012 03:01PM

shizz wrote: »

Why is it absurd? What reasoning do you have for it being so? I could direct you to an article on a paper which shows that recent research indicates that in the quantum world an effect can have happened due to itself. Cause and effect in that case are one in the same.

Its a huge step to go from a creator to a creator who also interfers by using signs. Not to mention how ridiculous it is to say that he needs to use signs which arent obvious, you have to want to find then to find them. Convenient isnt it? What are these signs? Jesus appears in my toast?

In no way is that indisputable evidence.

It is absurd because it means that the everything is ultimately meaningless and this resulting meaninglessness from all your hypothesis proves that the hypothesis is not true. All you have to do is continue with the hypothesis down to its end and you will find it is absurd. Thats solid reasoning.

Lelantos · 10-10-2012 03:01PM

systemsready wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

I think anybody who looks at the world realistically & scientifically knows that all 2400+ gods that have ever been are superstitious nonsense. But, live & let live, they don't ram their religion down my throat I don't show them my coccyx

There has only ever been One God.
But there have been many false gods that men have tried to worship...and I'm sure its a lot more than 2400+

It's generally accepted that their have been a little over 2400 major gods, yes, countless more minor deities, but still, to say there has only been 1 god is more than a little arrogant. Others have been around for far longer than your god, have equally devout followers & denounce yours as the false god

fatmammycat · 10-10-2012 03:02PM

systemsready wrote: »

Again it is by deduction, for example, Moses said God forbade pork and insisted on circumcision, Jesus said live by the commandments of God , Muhammed said God forbade pork and insisted on circumcision. . Therefore, even though Christianity has abandoned these rules, we can deduct that the rules are indeed forever. Never changing. When we find a constant, we can use that to reflect about other things.

Deduce, for god's sake it's deduce. Deduct means to subtract. Whatever about what your version of a god might have said or not, words are not interchangable.

Zombrex · 10-10-2012 03:03PM

systemsready wrote: »

Again it is by deduction, for example, Moses said God forbade pork and insisted on circumcision, Jesus said live by the commandments of God , Muhammed said God forbade pork and insisted on circumcision. . Therefore, even though Christianity has abandoned these rules, we can deduct that the rules are indeed forever. Never changing. When we find a constant, we can use that to reflect about other things.

Christianity abandoned these rules because Jesus told them to. Have you actually read the New Testament?

So you can believe Moses and Muhammed but that puts you at odds with Jesus. Like I said you cannot believe all of them got it right about everything.

systemsready · 10-10-2012 03:03PM

Lelantos wrote: »

It's generally accepted that their have been a little over 2400 major gods, yes, countless more minor deities, but still, to say there has only been 1 god is more than a little arrogant. Others have been around for far longer than your god, have equally devout followers & denounce yours as the false god

I only acknowledge the God that brought all of the Universe into existence. The One True God of Abraham. Any other notions result in absurdity.

systemsready · 10-10-2012 03:04PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Christianity abandoned these rules because Jesus told them to. Have you actually read the New Testament?

So you can believe Moses and Muhammed but that puts you at odds with Jesus. Like I said you cannot believe all of them got it right about everything.

Can you quote me where Jesus when he was on earth actually told the people, you can now eat pork, and no need to get circumcised?

systemsready · 10-10-2012 03:08PM

fatmammycat wrote: »

Deduce, for god's sake it's deduce. Deduct means to subtract. Whatever about what your version of a god might have said or not, words are not interchangable.

Dective reasoning?, make a deduction? Deduct?

Go on though, I'll give to you until I find otherwise.

greenpilot · 10-10-2012 03:12PM

systemsready wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

It's generally accepted that their have been a little over 2400 major gods, yes, countless more minor deities, but still, to say there has only been 1 god is more than a little arrogant. Others have been around for far longer than your god, have equally devout followers & denounce yours as the false god

I only acknowledge the God that brought all of the Universe into existence. The One True God of Abraham. Any other notions result in absurdity.

And this, my logical and rational friends, is the attitude which has forced thousands of young to laugh at religion and put the nail in the coffin of faith in this country. We are probably the last generation of believers. I'm beginning to wonder myself after reading some of these illogical posts....including mine, I hear u say..

Lelantos · 10-10-2012 03:15PM

systemsready wrote: »

Zombrex wrote: »

The teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammed, which I'm guessing you haven't actually studied, are mutually exclusive (ie they can't all be right, someone must be wrong since they claim different things.

Unless you have some copy of the Bible and Quaran that no one else has access to that is closer to the true word of GOd.

And you aren't ... ?

You aren't going to be another person who claims they speak directly to God are you?

Again it is by deduction, for example, Moses said God forbade pork and insisted on circumcision, Jesus said live by the commandments of God , Muhammed said God forbade pork and insisted on circumcision. . Therefore, even though Christianity has abandoned these rules, we can deduct that the rules are indeed forever. Never changing. When we find a constant, we can use that to reflect about other things.

So your deduction is based on whether little piggy goes to the butchers or not? In fact its because they didn't know howto cure the meat, it goes bad quickly in the heat, lots of deaths, easier to say pig bad! Don't eat!
Most religions differ greatly in basic belief, Christians say son of god, Muslims say its impossible for there to be a son of god, Hindus do their own thing & Sikhs say come one, come all. We're all the same & pray to the same god. Perhaps if you wish to have religion in your life, this is the best option?

systemsready · 10-10-2012 03:22PM

greenpilot wrote: »

And this, my logical and rational friends, is the attitude which has forced thousands of young to laugh at religion and put the nail in the coffin of faith in this country. We are probably the last generation of believers. I'm beginning to wonder myself after reading some of these illogical posts....including mine, I hear u say..

They only laugh temporarily. History shows there is no escape from truth. Going back to our original debate about Noah's Ark...people laughed at Noah too.
Look for the signs of wisdom in order to be saved.

Gumbi · 10-10-2012 03:24PM

So your honest answer is "I don't know whether unicorns ever existed". Well, hey, neither do I! Unfortunately were both cowards and lazy by your reasoning.

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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