Gardi to tackle cycle menaces

magicbastarder · 04-10-2012 11:19AM

EnterNow wrote: »

Because if it saves even one life, its a resource worth investing, no?

my point was that *if* the same effort - which might have saved one life - could have been concentrated elsewhere and reduced road fatalities by two lives (obviously any attempt at putting figures to this would be a hand waving exercise), should we concentrate on that itself.

some figures i found - in 2010, there were five cyclist fatalities in ireland, which was a big reduction on a decade or two earlier (may be due to falling numbers of cyclists); would a concerted campaign concentrating on cyclists which reduced fatalities by 20% divert garda resources away from other traffic duties, which could lead to a minor upswing in road fatalities?

i've found an article from june which states that road fatalities in the first five months of the year stood at six, so 2010 may have marked a low point for fatalities.

this is an interesting quote from that article:
"In fact, there is data to show that while 10 per cent of pedestrians are likely to die on impact with a vehicle travelling at 30km/h, this jumps to a whopping 80 per cent if the vehicle is travelling at 50km/h. Similar results would pertain to cyclists."

BostonB · 04-10-2012 11:19AM

EnterNow wrote: »

Your implying cyclists don't endanger themselves & in doing so, others. I see recklessness every day from motorists, pedestrians and yes, cyclists too. ....

Because if it saves even one life, its a resource worth investing, no?

My point is it makes sense to do the thing that has the biggest impact with the least resources. Also if the point of the campaign is improving the safety of cyclists and pedestrians, then why pick something that has the least impact on that, but takes more resources.

BostonB · 04-10-2012 11:22AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

i brought up jaywalking because people in general do not have an issue with what is an illegal practice on roads. most motorists here would be extremely put out if someone fined them for jaywalking; i was getting back to the 'clamp down on the other sort of road user' attitude which prevails.

I don't think there is a charge of jaywalking in this country. So its not illegal AFAIK. There is a charge for crossing near a pedestrian lights and not using them. There was a whole discussion on this a while back. No point digging all that up here. It needs its own thread.

magicbastarder · 04-10-2012 11:22AM

3 out of 4 cycling fatalities in Dublin have been caused by left-turning HGVs

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2012/0619/1224318189169.html
this is not down to cyclists breaking red lights (or breaking any laws, probably). this is a cyclist education & assertiveness issue.

i would suspect that this number has fallen since the HGV ban, however.

Monty Burnz · 04-10-2012 11:24AM

Slurryface wrote: »

It aint illegal to park on a cycle lane in many cases.

And here we begin to see the problems that cyclists face in getting around Dublin safely.

BostonB · 04-10-2012 11:26AM

Slurryface wrote: »

Thank yopu for DISPROVING your own earlier allegation that there is no Garda enforcement against motorists these days.
i take it you will now have the decency to withdraw that statement.

What you quoted was...

BostonB wrote: »

...These days I see almost no enforcement, for months at a time. Seeing a Garda enforcing the law is a quite rare sight for me.

BostonB · 04-10-2012 11:31AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2012/0619/1224318189169.html
this is not down to cyclists breaking red lights (or breaking any laws, probably). this is a cyclist education & assertiveness issue.

i would suspect that this number has fallen since the HGV ban, however.

+1 a TV campaign telling people not to cycle up the inside of HGV or buses at junctions would have more effect on accidents.

monument · 04-10-2012 12:04PM

I'm all for better enforcement of around the issue of cyclists on footpaths, the idiots with no lights in the dark, and those breaking red lights.

But any step up in enforcement should also target cars with broken light(s) which there is more and more of travelling around Dublin these days, it should target cars illegally parked on footpaths and cycle paths which is widespread, and it should target motorists blocking cyclists advance stop lines, ped crossings and whole junctions.

I'd be also very wary of saying just because cyclists don't kill or injury any/many people does not mean some cyclist don't need to behave better. Aggressive behaver by cyclists towards pedestrians can be just as bad as aggressive behaver by motorists towards cyclists.

cournioni wrote: »

It is every bit as dangerous when cyclists break red lights and knock pedestrians over!

While I strongly disagree with cyclists breaking red lights especially when they blindly or otherwise fly across a busy junction, it's not "every bit as dangerous". Larger vehicles have a far higher potential to hurt and kill people -- it's basic physics back up by real word hard stats.

That not to say bicycles are never dangerous -- just that they are less so than cars, vans and trucks.

cournioni wrote: »

You very rarely see motorists at it, yet you almost always see cyclists breaking red lights where pedestrians have the right of way.

Where do you live? Because where ever you live sounds a lot different than the rest of the country where motorist break red lights all the time.

EnterNow wrote: »

About time the cyclists are made responsible as any other road user for disregarding rules.

What other road users are you taking about?

The 75%+ of motorist who break the speed limit in general or 90%+ who break the 30km/h limit? Those stats are survey detection rates, not the amount who are caught.

Or the pedestrians who jay-walk all over the place?

Spook_ie wrote: »

How many get killed/injured/scared by cyclists not yielding to pedestrians, as the figures aren't ( don't seem to be logged anywhere ) available we'll have to go by anecdotal evidence, which seems to point to the fact that cyclists are a load of unruly, law unto themselves thugs that think they are a cut above other road users because " We are cyclists and we matter more than other road users"

Regarding those killed on the road -- it's highly unlikely that many people killed on the road are not recorded in official stats and if people are it is as likely that people killed by motorists are also not recorded.

And regarding those injured/scared -- research by the HSE has shown that the garda / RSA stats underestimate all injuries and generally scaring people is not record. This applies to motorists, including motorists injuring or scarring other motorists.

cournioni wrote: »

Yeah, just as dangerous as breaking red lights and cycling on footpaths knocking people over. At least motorists stick to the road.

Motorists stick to the road?! :eek:

AGAIN: Where you live must be different to the rest of Ireland where motorists parking on footpaths is rampant.

Undercover Elephant · 04-10-2012 12:21PM

monument wrote: »

Motorists stick to the road?! :eek:

I can't find any Irish statistics, but certainly in the UK a pedestrian on the footpath is over 100x more likely to be killed by a car than a bike.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two people mown down on the footpath next to the Malahide Road*. No one seems to be able to come up with a single Irish case of pedestrian killed by cyclist on the footpath (or, indeed, at all).

EDIT - actually five mown down, in an incident in November 2009. One killed, one seriously injured, two with minor injuries, one unharmed.

cournioni · 04-10-2012 12:22PM

seamus wrote: »

The irony.

Very good seamus, a two word retort. How about being constructive and actually coming up with some suggestions of how to solve the problem of "cycle menaces" as the thread title suggests.

Gambas · 04-10-2012 12:22PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Ya, never mind the gang war thats going on in dublin, lets get the cyclists

Yeah, lets ignore everything else and just get the gangs.

cournioni · 04-10-2012 12:25PM

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

I can't find any Irish statistics, but certainly in the UK a pedestrian on the footpath is over 100x more likely to be killed by a car than a bike.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two people mown down on the footpath next to the Malahide Road. No one seems to be able to come up with a single Irish case of pedestrian killed by cyclist on the footpath (or, indeed, at all).

If a car is driven on a footpath and it is witnessed by Gardai, you can bet your arse that the driver will be prosecuted. The same cannot be said for cyclists who can potentially seriously injure a pedestrian. This thread is about cyclists, not motorists.

Undercover Elephant · 04-10-2012 12:30PM

cournioni wrote: »

If a car is driven on a footpath and it is witnessed by Gardai, you can bet your arse that the driver will be prosecuted.

That is untrue. I reported one last month. Driver cautioned; no prosecution.

The same cannot be said for cyclists who can potentially seriously injure a pedestrian. This thread is about cyclists, not motorists.

This thread is about a supposed Garda crackdown on supposedly dangerous cyclists. I think it is reasonable to point out that the behaviour being complained about is not as dangerous as it is made out to be, and that resources can be used more effectively.

reprazant · 04-10-2012 12:31PM

cournioni wrote: »

This thread is about cyclists, not motorists.

So you can use claims about motorist to back up your statements, but if anyone shows the fallacy of these claims then the thread reverts back to only being about cyclist and nobody else?

monument · 04-10-2012 12:33PM

cournioni wrote: »

If a car is driven on a footpath and it is witnessed by Gardai, you can bet your arse that the driver will be prosecuted. The same cannot be said for cyclists who can potentially seriously injure a pedestrian. This thread is about cyclists, not motorists.

Rolling around laughing at that one!

Seriously, what part of the country do you live in where cars parked on footpaths isn't an issue which is out of control and hardly ever policed?

You're also not dealing with his point: Cars which crash end up on the footpath all the time and sadly kill people who think they were safely walking along.

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

I can't find any Irish statistics, but certainly in the UK a pedestrian on the footpath is over 100x more likely to be killed by a car than a bike.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two people mown down on the footpath next to the Malahide Road*. No one seems to be able to come up with a single Irish case of pedestrian killed by cyclist on the footpath (or, indeed, at all).

EDIT - actually five mown down, in an incident in November 2009. One killed, one seriously injured, two with minor injuries, one unharmed.

Good point:

Even when motorists crash one the road there's high chance that they'll end up on the footpath and there's a load of case of people getting killed by cars on the footpath.

seamus · 04-10-2012 12:36PM

cournioni wrote: »

Very good seamus, a two word retort. How about being constructive and actually coming up with some suggestions of how to solve the problem of "cycle menaces" as the thread title suggests.

Nobody has yet convinced me that there is such a problem. Or at least that any new problem exists which is specific to cyclists.

Some road users break the law. That's the problem. The solution is to enforce it. Job done.

What I actually regard to be a bigger problem is the massive level of anger some people seem to have pent up and are willing to release against people who have never done anything against them.
That's the actions of someone with psychological issues.

desertcircus · 04-10-2012 12:37PM

cournioni wrote: »

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

I can't find any Irish statistics, but certainly in the UK a pedestrian on the footpath is over 100x more likely to be killed by a car than a bike.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two people mown down on the footpath next to the Malahide Road. No one seems to be able to come up with a single Irish case of pedestrian killed by cyclist on the footpath (or, indeed, at all).

If a car is driven on a footpath and it is witnessed by Gardai, you can bet your arse that the driver will be prosecuted. The same cannot be said for cyclists who can potentially seriously injure a pedestrian. This thread is about cyclists, not motorists.

A car is twenty times the weight and twice the speed, and is pretty much guaranteed to hit any pedestrian on a path anything less than ten feet wide. In addition, the closed nature and weight of a car means that almost all the energy in a collision is borne by the pedestrian, while a cyclist will be thrown off their bike and take nearly half the force of the hit. A thread about the dangers cyclists present is meaningless without a discussion of related dangers - like cars.

cournioni · 04-10-2012 12:44PM

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

That is untrue. I reported one last month. Driver cautioned; no prosecution.

This thread is about a supposed Garda crackdown on supposedly dangerous cyclists. I think it is reasonable to point out that the behaviour being complained about is not as dangerous as it is made out to be, and that resources can be used more effectively.

You were right to, well at least they were dealt with. If a cyclist had been reported the Gardai would have laughed at you.

So you're saying that knocking pedestrians down, going through red lights and cycling the wrong way up one or two way streets isn't dangerous? Fantastic.

Undercover Elephant · 04-10-2012 01:04PM

cournioni wrote: »

So you're saying that knocking pedestrians down, going through red lights and cycling the wrong way up one or two way streets isn't dangerous? Fantastic.

Honestly, is my writing that bad, that you could read this into it?

cournioni · 04-10-2012 01:08PM

seamus wrote: »

Nobody has yet convinced me that there is such a problem. Or at least that any new problem exists which is specific to cyclists.

Some road users break the law. That's the problem. The solution is to enforce it. Job done.

What I actually regard to be a bigger problem is the massive level of anger some people seem to have pent up and are willing to release against people who have never done anything against them.
That's the actions of someone with psychological issues.

Well having two people close to me injured by cyclists, one of them elderly with permanent injuries, you should understand why I think Gardai need to be enforcing the rules with cyclists.

Add that to the arrogance and complete disrespect of other road and footpath users by some cyclists coupled with the lack of enforcement by Gardai. I have to say that I can see why people have anger towards them also, but I don't think it is any worse than the anger thrown towards drivers or pedestrians.

cournioni · 04-10-2012 01:13PM

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Honestly, is my writing that bad, that you could read this into it?

You're saying that cyclists breaking the rules aren't as dangerous as they're made out to be. This is complete bull as I've pointed out in my last post.

You are also saying that resources can be used more effectively... Like how?! The rules of the road need to be enforced collectively, for all road and footpath users, otherwise more people will be hurt and killed. This is currently not the case for cyclists as the thread title suggests.

magicbastarder · 04-10-2012 01:18PM

it's a worthwhile point to take the reductio ad absurdum route, and point out that if all motorists were to start cycling instead, the fatality rate would fall to near zero, but if all cyclists were to start driving, the fatality rate would possibly go up (the increased deaths due to more cars on the road potentially offset by fewer cyclists being killed!)

cournioni · 04-10-2012 01:19PM

monument wrote: »

Rolling around laughing at that one!

Seriously, what part of the country do you live in where cars parked on footpaths isn't an issue which is out of control and hardly ever policed?

You're also not dealing with his point: Cars which crash end up on the footpath all the time and sadly kill people who think they were safely walking along.

I'm not talking about parked anything, I'm talking about cyclists cycling on footpaths. If a car drove on a footpath, the Gardai would take action, the same cannot be said for cyclists at present. Cyclists cycling on a footpath pose a huge danger to pedestrians.

Cars that end up crashing on a footpath and killing somebody will be dealt with by the law. Nothing is being done about cyclists injuring or potentially people on footpaths. That is my point.

chickendinner · 04-10-2012 01:20PM

Not looking through 28 pages to see if it is a repost

This video will the be the only outcome of this new Gardai protocol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ

cournioni · 04-10-2012 01:20PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's a worthwhile point to take the reductio ad absurdum route, and point out that if all motorists were to start cycling instead, the fatality rate would fall to near zero, but if all cyclists were to start driving, the fatality rate would possibly go up (the increased deaths due to more cars on the road potentially offset by fewer cyclists being killed!)

... and the numbers for serious injuries to pedestrians inflicted by cyclists?

seamus · 04-10-2012 01:21PM

cournioni wrote: »

Well having two people close to me injured by cyclists, one of them elderly with permanent injuries, you should understand why I think Gardai need to be enforcing the rules with cyclists.

I don't disagree. I don't know anyone who's ever been injured by a cyclist, but also I think that the rules need to be enforced.

The thing I'm wondering about is why this even needs to be said. It's all anger directed towards cyclists, when surely the anger should be with the Gardai who don't enforce the rules? Human beings are inherently selfish. People break the rules that they can get away with breaking. If there's a problem with people breaking the rules, then the problem is not people, the problem is the enforcement.

I don't think it is any worse than the anger thrown towards drivers or pedestrians.

When's the last time there was a 400-post thread on After Hours about the scourge of pedestrians or about how car drivers should go play with their toys somewhere else and leave the roads to the rest of us?

There hasn't been, because some people seem to think that every cyclist is in cahoots with every other cyclist and it's all a grand conspiracy to screw over the guy in his car. It's arrogance of people (not just motorists it has to be said) who seem to feel that they are somehow better people because they don't cycle, that gets me.

magicbastarder · 04-10-2012 01:29PM

cournioni wrote: »

... and the numbers for serious injuries to pedestrians inflicted by cyclists?

hard to say. if there were no cars on the road, there would be less cause to cycle on footpaths.

Undercover Elephant · 04-10-2012 01:30PM

cournioni wrote: »

You're saying that cyclists breaking the rules aren't as dangerous as they're made out to be. This is complete bull as I've pointed out in my last post.

No, what you've done is drawn a target around your own set of statistics.

I know two people who have been shot (and one killed) by police marksmen. That statistic, on its own, is largely meaningless. It does not imply that we are at a particularly great risk of being shot by police marksmen.

None of this in any way excuses cycling on the footpath, and I hope the cyclists who injured your friends / relatives had the book thrown at them.

You are also saying that resources can be used more effectively... Like how?! The rules of the road need to be enforced collectively, for all road and footpath users, otherwise more people will be hurt and killed. This is currently not the case for cyclists as the thread title suggests.

Where do you get this idea that law enforcement is (disproportionately) not applied to cyclists?

As to the thread title, read the second paragraph of the article. Cracking down on cyclists is part of the "casualty reduction plan". The clear implication is that it will reduce casualties. It will do no such thing. Rather, it will divert resources away from dealing with what actually causes the casualties.

Undercover Elephant · 04-10-2012 01:31PM

cournioni wrote: »

I'm not talking about parked anything, I'm talking about cyclists cycling on footpaths. If a car drove on a footpath, the Gardai would take action, the same cannot be said for cyclists at present.

How do you park on a footpath without driving on it?

cournioni · 04-10-2012 01:32PM

seamus wrote: »

I don't disagree. I don't know anyone who's ever been injured by a cyclist, but also I think that the rules need to be enforced.

The thing I'm wondering about is why this even needs to be said. It's all anger directed towards cyclists, when surely the anger should be with the Gardai who don't enforce the rules? Human beings are inherently selfish. People break the rules that they can get away with breaking. If there's a problem with people breaking the rules, then the problem is not people, the problem is the enforcement.

When's the last time there was a 400-post thread on After Hours about the scourge of pedestrians or about how car drivers should go play with their toys somewhere else and leave the roads to the rest of us?

There hasn't been, because some people seem to think that every cyclist is in cahoots with every other cyclist and it's all a grand conspiracy to screw over the guy in his car. It's arrogance of people (not just motorists it has to be said) who seem to feel that they are somehow better people because they don't cycle, that gets me.

I totally agree. I also think that a lot of the anger may come from cyclists denial of any wrong doing and siege mentality among cyclists as you can see from this thread. Not saying that motorists are angels, just pointing out what I see as the problem with cyclists.

Gardi to tackle cycle menaces

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