Roisin Shortall on Marian Finucane

Qualitymark · 29-09-2012 10:53AM #1

Today September 29, 2012 11:53 a.m. - wow. She tells it like it is, how the politics of the Department of Health worked. Listen back if you didn't hear it.

So this is what our republic has come to.

rugbyman · 29-09-2012 11:00AM

i suppose different people hear differently. I found it a bit sad
Even Marian questioned some of her logic. the media have reported that the Labour party big men left her out to dry, if that is so, methinks they(the big men) are right.

regards Rugbyman

Qualitymark · 29-09-2012 11:13AM

It was sad, all right.

bleary · 29-09-2012 01:16PM

Whatever side of politics you are on , this is a lesson in how not to manage people and work with them, after months of work on initiatives by a number of people and agreeing a course of action, you get your advisor to call the night before and tell your colleague that you are going a different direction. Failed doctor, failed businessman, failed politician and failed manager sickened by oreilly and his buddys keeping him in power

woodoo · 29-09-2012 01:50PM

James Reilly wants an american style health system apparently.

n97 mini · 29-09-2012 03:09PM

Anything would be better than what we have.

Qualitymark · 29-09-2012 03:27PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Anything would be better than what we have.

Umm http://www.billshrink.com/blog/5596/health-care/

29-09-2012 03:28PM

This isn't the radio forum, give us a summary of what she actually said if you want to discuss this here, please

maddragon · 29-09-2012 03:31PM

Read the thread title and thought it was a disgusting idea.

thebman · 29-09-2012 03:38PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Anything would be better than what we have.

No it isn't, our health system is ranked higher than the US one I believe.

It just costs too much and needs reforms around the overstaffing and lack of modernisation to speed up administrative work.

Then we could have the same service but it would cost less but there is no political will to do this in Ireland and certainly not by James Reilly.

Qualitymark · 29-09-2012 03:44PM

bluewolf wrote: »

This isn't the radio forum, give us a summary of what she actually said if you want to discuss this here, please

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shortall-i-have-serious-concerns-over-reillys-ability-to-run-health-service-3244112.html

Shortall: I have serious concerns over Reilly’s ability to run health service
Roisin Shortall has strongly criticised health minister James Reilly in her first public statement since she resigned as junior health minister on Wednesday.

In an interview on the Marian Finucane Show on RTE Radio 1 this morning, Shortall said she had serious concerns about Reilly’s ability to manage the health service and that she viewed the inclusion of Balbriggan and Swords in the list of primary healthcare centres as stroke politics. “I have no doubt about that,” she said.

“James Reilly is going in a different direction in relation to the health service. It’s much more about a business model than a service that puts patients at its core.”

Defending her decision to vote confidence in James Reilly in the previous week’s no confidence vote, the Dublin North West TD said “I had to make a call. I had serious differences with James Reilly and I had serious concerns about his ability to manage the health service and his ability and interest in implementing reforms.

“I believed he was going in an entirely different direction, down the whole privatisation, American-style route. And I still firmly believe that.

“It came to the confidence vote. My inclination was to vote no but I knew if I did that, it would be a one-day wonder. I’d lose my job and go to the back benches. I really felt that I had a responsibility to set things out, and I did that in my four-minute speech.

“I was hoping that would act as a catalyst for the Labour Party within government generally.”

She was also critical of the Labour Party leadership, saying she resigned from the party because it did not back her.

Shortall said she had a meeting with the party’s leader Eamon Gilmore but “Ultimately he backed James Reilly over me.”

Full interview: http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!type=doPlayThis&detail=%7B%22latest%22%3Atrue%7D&rii=0%3A0%3A70%3A%3A

n97 mini · 29-09-2012 03:53PM

thebman wrote: »

No it isn't, our health system is ranked higher than the US one I believe.

Any link to back that up?

A family member living in the US was diagnosed with cancer six months before she was due to move home to Ireland. The advice from doctors in Ireland and in the US was that she would get better care in the US.

test4444 · 29-09-2012 04:00PM

Shorthall did nothing to learn about primary care. She wouldn't meet with the irish association of primary care. She didn't even visit woking centres. She did not follow the public private model recommended by all the reports and the HSE. She just went off and did her own socialist thing. The deal she was offering GPs to work in centres was rejected by all GPs because it limited them to 5 year leases with no right of renewal. No GP would give up an established location to move in to an HSE 'efficiently' :mad: run centre to be kicked out in 5 years!

Reilly does Not want a US system he wants it more like Canada.
Reilly added centres which already had been started where GPs had bought in. Also if you look at the centres shorthall picked and remove centres already built or started there are 19 new builds. 18 of these are in Labour constiuencies.

ardmacha · 29-09-2012 04:03PM

I heard some of this and some discussion later.

What seems to have emerged is that Reilly mucked around with her list of primary care centres. This is awful management at best and stroke politics at worst. She also alluded to an American approach to insurance companies, presumably rather than a UK NHS model. But the FG policies were based on the Netherlands, not the US, and should be evaluated on that basis.
I think there is a fundamental difference of philosophy here, Reilly's "business" approach may genuinely stem from a belief that this is an efficient way to deliver services. Shortall's patient caring approach risks being impossible to afford.

There was also a suggestion of something not going ahead because of a lack of money. Now you can criticise Reilly for a some of the problems that have lead to this budget shortfall, but Shortall also has to realise that there is a funding crisis.

A family member living in the US was diagnosed with cancer six months before she was due to move home to Ireland. The advice from doctors in Ireland and in the US was that she would get better care in the US.

There is no doubt that the best care in the US is better than anywhere in the world, the question is whether you can access it.

Qualitymark · 29-09-2012 04:03PM

test4444 wrote: »

Shorthall did nothing to learn about primary care.

She wouldn't meet with the irish association of primary care.

She didn't even visit woking centres.

She did not follow the public private model recommended by all the reports and the HSE.

The deal she was offering GPs to work in centres was rejected by all GPs because it limited them to 5 year leases with no right of renewal.

Could you back each of these statements up, by any hopeful chance?

thebman · 29-09-2012 04:17PM

n97 mini wrote: »

thebman wrote: »

No it isn't, our health system is ranked higher than the US one I believe.

Any link to back that up?

A family member living in the US was diagnosed with cancer six months before she was due to move home to Ireland. The advice from doctors in Ireland and in the US was that she would get better care in the US.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems
www.rte.ie/news/2009/0928/health.html

Depending on the cancer, we might not have the equipment.

What would the doctors advice be if she had no health insurance I wonder.

n97 mini · 29-09-2012 04:18PM

ardmacha wrote: »

There is no doubt that the best care in the US is better than anywhere in the world, the question is whether you can access it.

She's public sector on a modest salary. She had access to the best she could afford.

Qualitymark · 29-09-2012 04:25PM

While we're on the friend-of-a-friend line, an acquaintance of mine got the cataracts in one eye done in the US and it cost him $4,000 (on top of his insurance); at the same time, someone I know in France got his eyes done and it cost him €80, as far as I remember - something like that.

Vizzy · 29-09-2012 04:27PM

n97 mini wrote: »

She's public sector on a modest salary.

Link ?

beeno67 · 29-09-2012 04:33PM

n97 mini wrote: »

ardmacha wrote: »

There is no doubt that the best care in the US is better than anywhere in the world, the question is whether you can access it.

She's public sector on a modest salary. She had access to the best she could afford.

US health care is in general rubbish. It is no where near the standards in Ireland. Yes you can get high quality care but average healthcare is rubbish.

Qualitymark · 29-09-2012 04:47PM

The question for me is what kind of healthcare we want. How can it be the best we can make it, for everyone.

Trotter · 29-09-2012 05:04PM

Theres a bigger picture here. We've someone who by all accounts has acted with integrity towards the aims set out in the programme for government. She isnt stupid or well connected because she got the gig in the first place.

We can assume therefore that theres substance in what she's saying. Therefore why has she left and dropped the Labour whip? (I hate the whip system anyway but thats another day's moan)

From my point of view, Gilmore seems to have sided with the gang that will keep him in government, keep him on the inside of the circle and keep him in the life he's accustomed to. He's not going to back Shortall because then it'll be the last time he stands under an Irish flag at the UN and feels all important.

Enda won't drop O'Reilly because he seems to owe him one, or one hundred for his support when they tried to shift Enda out of the good seat.

So regardless of what is right and proper, we have again the situation where a supporting government minority party is blinded by power and the idea that they can 'do some good' in government regardless of the mucky stenched information seeping out of the setup.

This smells like FF and the Greens all over again... and we all know what happened the Greens.

Theres no integrity in Irish politics. The system is designed to weed out the likes of Shortall who pipe up with ideas that don't suit the underlying govern and prosper at all costs agenda of the ruling people in the Dáil. The machine will row in behind those that shafted her and we'll hear them all over the media.

Back benchers will whistle and look elsewhere. They dont want any kind of general election. 100k jobs arent around every corner.

The system is manky and theres no such thing as principles or integrity winning over.

The back benchers and grass roots of Labour should kick up a serious fuss and back her. Will they? Will they ffff....

test4444 · 29-09-2012 05:47PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Could you back each of these statements up, by any hopeful chance?

About the lease arrangements for GPs.
http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2012/09/hse-charged-with-edifice-complex.html

I have and anyone can contact the aipc at http://www.primarycare.ie/ to verify that the junior minister refussed to meet them.

The other statement regarding refusing to visit the most successful Primary Care Centre in the country is true from a 3rd party whose permission I do not have to mention.

ardmacha · 29-09-2012 05:52PM

We've someone who by all accounts has acted with integrity towards the aims set out in the programme for government.

The aims set out in the programme for government may be impossible.

Gilmore seems to have sided with the gang that will keep him in government,

Gilmore has sided with having a government. What is the advantage in bringing down the government? Should he ally with Adams instead?

Shortall pulled a stunt by announcing this when he was on business in the US. A more responsible person would at least have met him beforehand.

Qualitymark · 29-09-2012 05:56PM

Unfortunately, this (imt.ie) site refuses to let me access it - it's open only to healthcare professionals, not to service users.

Are you saying the Minister for State refused to meet the Primary Care Association and this wasn't reported? How unusual.

test4444 · 29-09-2012 06:27PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Unfortunately, this (imt.ie) site refuses to let me access it - it's open only to healthcare professionals, not to service users.

Here is the quote:
"Under the mooted public-private partnership (PPP) arrangement, the HSE would sub-lease primary care centres from developers and these would eventually revert to the Executive. The HSE would maintain the relationship with the GP. The GP would be on licence. According to the IMO, such doctors would never have any tenancy rights. The HSE might terminate licensing arrangements after five years, for example, the union fears."

Are you saying the Minister for State refused to meet the Primary Care Association and this wasn't reported? How unusual.

Why would it be? You won't get anywhere complaining to the media. Why not get someone from the media to get an official statement?

Qualitymark · 29-09-2012 06:53PM

Can you explain this a little, test4444? Would the GPs have to give up their practice? Are you saying the GPs are adamantly against Bill Reilly's plan for primary care centres? (Sorry if I'm being dim here.)

OMD · 29-09-2012 07:47PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Are you saying the Minister for State refused to meet the Primary Care Association and this wasn't reported? How unusual.

Ms Shortall was criticised yesterday for her failure to meet the Irish Association of Primary Care, the organisation representing private companies involved in the building of primary care centres.
Chairman Jack Nagle said she had not even replied to their request for a meeting.
- Eilish O'Regan Health Correspondent
Irish Independent 4 days ago

The IMT.ie article if you want it:
By Gary Culliton.
Local meetings have been organised by the HSE in the South to discuss potential locations for primary care centres and to gauge levels of interest. However, the Executive has “an obsession with premises and not with services” the IMO has charged. The HSE are proposing to build 20 primary care centres with the first centres due to emerge in the South.
There are no additional diagnostics planned or enhanced primary care type facilities in prospect at the proposed primary care centres, the union said. “There has been no indication that hospital services will transfer to the community and this is a big concern,” said IMO Assistant Director of Industrial Relations, Eric Young.
Under the mooted public-private partnership (PPP) arrangement, the HSE would sub-lease primary care centres from developers and these would eventually revert to the Executive. The HSE would maintain the relationship with the GP. The GP would be on licence. According to the IMO, such doctors would never have any tenancy rights. The HSE might terminate licensing arrangements after five years, for example, the union fears.
The package being offered to doctors in relation to primary care centres in the South is “not very attractive”, the IMO said. “These new centres are very much about bricks and mortar – replacing centres that GPs may have already.” What the Executive has on offer “might be attractive to newly emerging GPs, though even this appears unlikely. The rates and facilities on offer are not particularly attractive,” said Young.
“Nor are new services a certainty – which might bring added value for patients. I don’t see why doctors would enter into the proposed licence agreement. I don’t see many doctors availing of the new arrangements. The doctors would not have any right to tenancy. They would be operating very much at the behest of the HSE. New facilities and services are not in prospect.”

Finally: if anyone is interested here is the actual letter Reillywrote to Shortall
www.thejournal.ie/roisin-shortall-resigns-letter-611947-Sep2012/

femur61 · 30-09-2012 06:09AM

n97 mini wrote: »

Any link to back that up?

A family member living in the US was diagnosed with cancer six months before she was due to move home to Ireland. The advice from doctors in Ireland and in the US was that she would get better care in the US.

I did read a couple of years ago that you are 4 times more likely to survive cancer in the US than here.

AFAIK and what I read health care is extrremely expensive in the US so maybe the health system is better here because it is accessible to everyone (eventually).

Qualitymark · 30-09-2012 08:03AM

femur61 wrote: »

I did read a couple of years ago that you are 4 times more likely to survive cancer in the US than here.

AFAIK and what I read health care is extrremely expensive in the US so maybe the health system is better here because it is accessible to everyone (eventually).

Part of the reason for this may be that people go to the doctor a lot more in the US. I know two men, for instance, whose cancer was discovered during a checkup for insurance - one testicular cancer, the other colon cancer. Whereas friends in the US go for colonoscopies every two years after the age of 50.

They also go to the dentist more; I talked to a dentist a couple of years ago who told me he'd spotted three cancer cases in his first 18 months of practice. (By the same token, must go to the dentist, haven't been for years...)

Another Irish friend, God rest her, did go to her doctor regularly, and asked him each time about a small weeping sore that wouldn't heal on her leg. It was only when he was on holiday and the locum sent her for a hospital investigation that she discovered it was skin cancer, too far advanced by then to be cured.

test4444 · 30-09-2012 10:31AM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Can you explain this a little, test4444? Would the GPs have to give up their practice? Are you saying the GPs are adamantly against Bill Reilly's plan for primary care centres? (Sorry if I'm being dim here.)

Currently a GP either owns or has a long lease on a physical premise called their surgery. The GP's Practice runs out of this surgery and typically has patients from the local area. In the already built Primary Care Centres the GPs either own the centre or have long renewable leases. Reilly wants this type of Public Private Partnership to be the model.

Shorthall changed this to be trotsky like system where the central govournment owns everything and the GP can work in the centre at the whim of the HSE. Imagine giving up your surgery premises and moving your practice several miles down the road. You will loose some patients and gain others, but then in 5 years you have to find new premises or move back to your old one if you still own it. You will lose patients and not gain back the patients you lost as they now have a new GP. Your patients will not be happy. Your practice will shrink, you will be out of pocket all the expenses of moving, informing patients etc.

Remember Reilly is in this for the long haul not the short hall.:)

Roisin Shortall on Marian Finucane

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