Quality of CV's

Eoin · 13-09-2012 10:20PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I see your point about not wanting an argument and usually Grammar Nazis piss me off too, but spelling and grammar are an important part of a CV!

I absolutely agree - but everyone's going on about the punctuation in the thread title!

I am going through lots of CVs CV's Curricula Vitae resumes at the moment, and I am finding it strange how some people think that what they're sending in is a good advertisement for them.

Writing a good CV isn't easy - it takes me ages, with lots of constant reviews and updates. But some of the silly errors or just really off-putting layouts I am seeing should have been spotted.

If you're in a specialist profession, then you might need someone in the same field to review it for you, so you know what particular points you should be emphasising. But also get anyone with a good grasp of English to proof read it and weed out the silly mistakes too.

Also, read the job description and make sure your CV matches what they're looking for. I'd say most people should not be sending the same CV in for every role they're applying for. It should be tweaked for each application.

Quorum · 13-09-2012 11:35PM

Raekwon wrote: »

The one thing that I hated about word docs is when recruiters would edit them before passing it on to a company. I remember once a recruiter took some important information out of my CV because they wanted to fit it all on one page. I only found this out at an interview but luckily I had a few spare copies of the original which the interviewer described as being "much better".

Don't get me started on recruitment agencies. :mad: Luckily the field I wish to pursue means I should be able to cut out the inept middle man for a fair few years at least.

Honey-ec · 14-09-2012 09:04AM

maxwell smart wrote: »

I have been tasked with recruiting 3 sales people for the company I work for. I thought it would be easy in this climate, but after going through 125 CV's this morning only 2 are any use and even then its a bit of a reach for one of them.

If I can give some advice to people, when sending the CV have your name somewhere in the file name, don't just send the file named 'cv'.I had 27 of these this morning and nearly just deleted them, instead I renamed all of them to correspond with the sender.
And don't have it called 'Joe Bloggs sales jobs CV'... that's obvious that you are working the wording. People know you are anyway, just don't be so blatant.

And as a contact email address, perhaps have a think before you put your regular one in...'jenniehotstuff@whatever' gives a certain impression!!

Also, do people even look at the job they are applying for? Try to send a relevant CV.

The length of the CV needs to be 2-3 pages maximum. And the font, please pick something simple and plain.

And personally I don't like .PDF CV's but that is just me.

Also, please, please, please check both the grammar and the spelling. There is no excuse with spell check.

Hopefully some of these points will help you look at your own CV and improve it a little.

Jesus Christ, I would have thought all of those would be absolute no-brainers. Are people really that idiotic? Scary.

Gurgle · 14-09-2012 09:42AM

Quorum wrote: »

Don't get me started on recruitment agencies.

I never understood why companies use recruitment agencies. I have never met or spoken to an agent who even understands the difference between electrical and electronic engineer, never mind the myriad of completely different jobs within these fields.

antodeco · 14-09-2012 10:04AM

A bit of advice I can give in relation to CVs

Bullet point your key skills.
Dont have long sentences/paragraphs. Keep it simple
When applying for a job with similar skills to you, ensure the bullet points matches what the ideal candidate skills are. This allows easier glancing to match skills to expertese
Dont be afraid to use bold to highlight the names of the companies you work for. Dont have everything bold, but rather the headings

the_syco · 14-09-2012 10:06AM

Eoin wrote: »

When you're dealing with an agency, they're probably going to want .doc so they can slap their logo over your contact details so the company has to go through the agency.

Also, they'll take your contact details off the CV, so the company has to contact you through the recruitment agency...

banie01 wrote: »

To the OP I totally agree with you, the standard of 70% of the CVs I see is laughably poor, particularly with IT grads!

You'd wonder if the problem is that this is how they've been taught to write the CV by their lecturer.

=-=

Most companies that use recruitment agencies seem to have either a sh|te HR, or no HR at all!

the_syco · 14-09-2012 10:08AM

antodeco wrote: »

When applying for a job with similar skills to you, ensure the bullet points matches what the ideal candidate skills are. This allows easier glancing to match skills to expertese

On this point; ensure that the relevant skills are at the top of the list. You want it to be noticed straight away!

Surveyor11 · 14-09-2012 10:33AM

It's actually resumé, but anyway....:D

I've been looking at CVs in my field (construction consultancy) of late. Here's what I see as a common list of mistakes:

Mixing up fonts - keep it consistent - arial / times new roman or whatever tickles your fancy, no fancy fonts

Qualifications - BSc not BSC / BSc / Bsc
A degree is a bachelor's degree not batchelor's (they make beans:D)

misuse of apostrophes - cats' vs cat's.
Your / you're - your car, you're going to....
Their / there - Their house, there is a house
where / were getting mixed up - were 2 of us, where are we going to
too / to - too much, I'm going to Dublin
Than / then - more than, then I undertook

Also when it comes to units - make sure any units you're talking about are properly described - superscript m2 (square meters), sq. ft. used as appropriate. If your job involves units that are particular to the industry (for example, a lab job may talk about micrometers - μm) take the time to correctly describe the units. It shows a level of attention to detail.

I'm far from perferct when it comes to grammar, but in my game we expect reports to be written well with minimal spelling mistakes. Grammar needs to be well constructed - it takes time for people to pour over reports and correct them.

14-09-2012 10:37AM

Surveyor11 wrote: »

Grammar needs to be well constructed - it takes time for people to pour over reports and correct them.

Honey-ec wrote: »

Jesus Christ, I would have thought all of those would be absolute no-brainers. Are people really that idiotic? Scary.

I would have thought so too.

I usually send CVs in .doc, but it's annoying when the recruiter then forwards on an edited version claiming skills I don't have. I had to have a word with one, once, and was told I could tell the employer myself. How about you just don't lie in the first place

Surveyor11 · 14-09-2012 10:41AM

em, I meant to say - getting pore / pour mixed up:o

Eoin · 14-09-2012 10:57AM

Gurgle wrote: »

I never understood why companies use recruitment agencies. I have never met or spoken to an agent who even understands the difference between electrical and electronic engineer, never mind the myriad of completely different jobs within these fields.

Agencies can be very useful. If you had to deal with 10s if not 100s of CVs, you'd understand why.

the_syco wrote:

Most companies that use recruitment agencies seem to have either a sh|te HR, or no HR at all!

That's not true at all.

An agency has a better chance of finding a candidate who might be interested in a change but isn't actively applying for jobs. Given the choice, I'll engage an agency every time. I've found that I tend to get a better quality of candidate in general.

This might become less of an advantage for agencies in the future though, with LinkedIn's head-hunter service for companies becoming more popular.

I think a lot of people have had bad experience with some recruiters, and that makes them think that they don't do anything at all. But the good ones do a good bit of work for their customers; who are the employers, not the candidates.

Edit: shame this is getting side tracked into either a bitch about agencies and a silly pedantic argument. There's been some useful tips about CVs mentioned here.

Nody · 14-09-2012 12:30PM

Agencies matter if you want to fill specific types of positions; for example AP Manager with 5 years experience and able to handle a team of 200 people in Ireland and offshore. That's where an agency can help you as a company (to weed out the gazillion applications not meeting the requirement) and get you possible candidates. Those agencies don't approach your standard "We send all CVs to the company just in case" agencies that became popular during the boom days though and do add value to your process.

Another thing I'd add is the use of the EU CV layout; I got a CV once from a person with no work experience that was 5 pages because of it.

RATM · 14-09-2012 07:08PM

Gurgle wrote: »

I never understood why companies use recruitment agencies. I have never met or spoken to an agent who even understands the difference between electrical and electronic engineer, never mind the myriad of completely different jobs within these fields.

Well I run an a recruitment agency and do know the difference between the two so now you know one

Companies use us because there is a demand to outsource this type of work to people who are specialists in it. We also have economies of scale in advertising as we are paying and using it year round whereas a small employer isn't and therefore gets charged substantially higher rates. Anyway if agencies weren't better ( or at least as good as ) finding the right candidate than the employer doing it themselves then they will cease to exist. That hasn't happened and I don't expect it to anytime in the near future either- I have many satisfied clients who always get straight on the phone to me when they need staff- they don't even bother doing it themselves as I can do the job well for them and at a good price and they know my track record from previous candidates who were submitted. Over time I've gotten to know exactly the kind of staff they like to hire so now I only send them the right people with the right attitude which means they are only spending their time talking to the type of person they are likely to hire - it is my job to sift through and filter out everyone (90% of applications) who don't match their criteria or aren't a good cultural fit for their organisation.

We can also do recruitment a lot quicker as we generally aren't starting from scratch and will have candidates who weren't successful in other interviews (for whatever reason) but who might be the ideal fit for a new client who just came in the door. So what can be a 5-10 week process for an employer can sometimes be whittled down to as low as two weeks and that in itself is valuable to them- time is money after all.

I couldn't agree more with the OP- nearly half of the CVs I receive have some sort of a spelling mistake. I don't mind a missing apostrophe; it is more so the language contained within and spelling mistakes too. I'd love to throw up a few examples here to show people how bad it can get but even if I removed the personal details I could still find myself on the wrong side of data protection laws so I won't. But it tends to range from the really, really bad to the downright atrocious to the point that it is very frustrating to try to read.

I used to email people back and tell them 'sorry thanks but your CV has a pile of errors in it so I am not progressing your application any further on this occasion. I would advise you to address these problems with your CV before applying for any further positions', etc. I'd feel sorry for them so would take the time to let them know. But after a year of doing that I got sick of it as it is so common plus I figured that my time was better spent talking to good candidates who had the sense to have their CV proof read by someone else.

Many people moan and bitch about agencies not getting back to them- well it is harsh but if my time is wasted reading through a CV littered with errors then I won't be getting back to you. We make profit by filling positions for clients, we don't charge the candidate a penny and therefore owe them nothing and them likewise- I've been left high and dry by candidates plenty of times but I just have to get on with it. But if your CV isn't up to scratch then there is no point carrying on the conversation; it might be the reason why employers or agencies are not getting back to you. Sad but true.

Gurgle · 17-09-2012 11:19AM

RATM wrote: »

Well I run an a recruitment agency and do know the difference between the two so now you know one

Now I know of one who thinks he understands the different fields of engineering :P

Stark · 17-09-2012 11:30AM

maxwell smart wrote: »

And don't have it called 'Joe Bloggs sales jobs CV'... that's obvious that you are working the wording. People know you are anyway, just don't be so blatant.

I would have thought it was expected that you tailor your CV to the job you're applying for.

Nody · 17-09-2012 02:54PM

Stark wrote: »

I would have thought it was expected that you tailor your CV to the job you're applying for.

It is but you would not walk into an interview and state "Well as you're company likes X I'm going to mention it a lot"... An application and interview is like courting; you're both going to lie and hide things while trying to find out more about the other and if it's a good match.

RATM · 17-09-2012 04:50PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Now I know of one who thinks he understands the different fields of engineering :P

I don't claim to be an expert in engineering but I am building on my knowledge of it everyday. For example if I'm hiring software engineers and there is something I don't understand I ring up a software engineer who I have previously placed and ask him about the technicalities of the position I'm recruiting for. I try my level best to understand the skills and elements of the role that are fundamental to doing the job well. If I'm uncertain I can introduce technical tests to the equation on top of the interview process. What can I say, I do my best, I'm a lone recruiter and if if I don't find my clients good staff then I'm out of business. That hasn't happened (touch wood=) and my cleints come back to me for repeat business all the time so I guess I'm doing something right.

Anyway back on topic - there are some excellent resources online for people to put their CV together. It is vital that candidates focus intensely on this document and ensure it is fluid and tailored for the job you are applying for. And always always have someone else to proof read it- only this morning I had a CV come through where the candidate claimed to have "a great attention to detial"- I couldn't believe my eyes upon reading it but was left with no option but to eliminate them (because of this and another two errors). Talk about shooting yourself in the foot before the race even began.

Stark · 17-09-2012 05:24PM

Nody wrote: »

It is but you would not walk into an interview and state "Well as you're company likes X I'm going to mention it a lot"... An application and interview is like courting; you're both going to lie and hide things while trying to find out more about the other and if it's a good match.

Only a moron includes lies on a CV/in an interview. What I would do is if I was applying for say a software development job, then I would make cursory references to irrelevant experience like barman experience and include greater detail on my software development roles. If the job required specific skills, I'd make sure they were listed before skills that weren't specifically required. The most common complaint I hear from HR is that people send in generic CVs without any attempt to highlight what skills they have that are relevant to the job.

Posy · 18-09-2012 12:43AM

So if I am sending a CV, should I send it in both doc. and pdf just to be on the safe side if they don't specify either way; but doc. to recruitment agencies?

fasttalkerchat · 18-09-2012 12:53AM

Posy wrote: »

So if I am sending a CV, should I send it in both doc. and pdf just to be on the safe side if they don't specify either way; but doc. to recruitment agencies?

.doc can be edited easily so you don't wan't a recruitment agency to get it.
I like pdf but someone on a work computer may not have the necessary software so I have a .doc formatted version too.

Eoin · 18-09-2012 01:06AM

As has been said, a recruitment agency will normally want to remove your contact details so the company can't bypass them and contact the candidate directly. You can send a PDF to them, but there's a good chance they're going to ask for a doc version anyway.

There should be no problems with platform or version compatibility with a word doc once you keep the formatting simple. That doesn't mean it can't look good.

Gurgle · 18-09-2012 10:11AM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I like pdf but someone on a work computer may not have the necessary software

True, there is still no pdf viewer for the Commodore 64.

krd · 18-09-2012 01:13PM

Eoin wrote: »

As has been said, a recruitment agency will normally want to remove your contact details so the company can't bypass them and contact the candidate directly. You can send a PDF to them, but there's a good chance they're going to ask for a doc version anyway.

Some agencies use software to determine a candidate's eligibility. They are morons. All the software does is a buzz word count. I prefer the PDF format because I have seen how botched they can make the formatting when they open it up for a little editing.

There should be no problems with platform or version compatibility with a word doc once you keep the formatting simple. That doesn't mean it can't look good.

You know the advice people get. Make it long, make it short. Make it technical, don't make it technical. It drives people mad. I've been in a few companies where I have seen the CVs of people hired. And many were absolute travesties. Forget bad spelling, punctuation and grammar. These CVs were gibberish.

For every person who cares about punctuation and grammar, there are probably 99 who don't. I would say 99% of people do not even know what an apostrophe is.

krd · 18-09-2012 01:34PM

Gurgle wrote: »

I never understood why companies use recruitment agencies.

The main reason is because the human resource managers of many companies are absurdly lazy. And since the money isn't coming out of their pockets, they don't mind spending it. In fact the more money they waste, the more important they feel it makes them.

I have never met or spoken to an agent who even understands the difference between electrical and electronic engineer, never mind the myriad of completely different jobs within these fields.

There are small specialist agencies where they do know the difference. But the vast majority of agencies just employ chancers, who couldn't tell the difference between an electronic engineer, an electrical engineer, or toothpaste.

Eoin · 18-09-2012 01:45PM

I don't agree with those sweeping statements for reasons I've already posted. Most of the time, I get a better quality of candidate through an agency than the direct applicants. Regardless this shouldn't be an agency bashing thread.

The point of this thread should be that there are simple things you can do to improve your CV. Then there are improvements that will take time and constant reviewing.

I bet anyone here who has been recruiting for a position recently has received in a load of awful CVs, which has ruled the candidate out very quickly. If people can take some of the more useful advice from this thread, they might give themselves a better chance of getting to the interview thread and not have their CV binned immediately (by an agency or a company).

krd · 18-09-2012 02:28PM

Stark wrote: »

Only a moron includes lies on a CV/in an interview.

If that were true, bluffers, bullsh****rs, and morons wouldn't get jobs.

Many companies hire people for their personalities, not their skills. HRs think "average" people make the best fits. So, they want someone who is a little dishonest, a little stupid, someone who is an all round mediocrity.

And the lying in interviews and on CVs has just been getting worse and worse. And people are not even making a half-assed attempt to make the lies believable. Someone I know who was interviewing to fill a few roles. They kept seeing awful CVs, but one thing that stuck out on a few was in the education section some people had just put down the word college. Human resources were calling these people for interview - he had no control over it. He's interviewing one of these guys, and he asks what did you do in college. And the guy replies "Oh..Just college stuff, you know"... what did you study? "college stuff....". He tells human resources that the guy is probably lying about everything on his CV, they still decide to give him a job.

Jim2007 · 18-09-2012 08:36PM

Eoin wrote: »

When you're dealing with an agency, they're probably going to want .doc so they can slap their logo over your contact details so the company has to go through the agency.

For that very reason I always take a copy of my original CV with me to the interview and leave in with the client... it's amazing how much the secretary can cull out of the CV to make the logo fit

Jim2007 · 18-09-2012 08:40PM

Surveyor11 wrote: »

I'm far from perferct when it comes to grammar, but in my game we expect reports to be written well with minimal spelling mistakes. Grammar needs to be well constructed - it takes time for people to pour over reports and correct them.

I always say that the CV is the most important document you are going to write, so if you screw it up or get someone else to write it for you, what can I expect when I need you to write something for me????

Honey-ec · 19-09-2012 10:44AM

krd wrote: »

I would say 99% of people do not even know what an apostrophe is.

I think 99% of statistics are made up on the spot, but that doesn't make it true.

kippy · 19-09-2012 11:47AM

Jim2007 wrote: »

I always say that the CV is the most important document you are going to write, so if you screw it up or get someone else to write it for you, what can I expect when I need you to write something for me????

That's a very fair point.

Quality of CV's

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