Property tax rate

JP 1800 · 10-09-2012 05:11PM #1

Noonan states that a property tax of 0.5% suggested by the IMF is too high in which I agree but would a tax rate of 0.25% be more likely for Decembers budget?

http://www.thejournal.ie/imf-ireland-bailout-michael-noonan-591056-Sep2012/

10-09-2012 05:25PM

Depends really how they determine the value, plenty of people who bought property for 3/4 times what it would sell for now.

0.25% of €400,000 per annum is a bit of a sh1tter if next door sold for €150,000 last week.

Lots of people in their 60s etc living in houses that might be worth a few quid but their income might be quite small.

The fair implementation of this tax will be crucial.

JP 1800 · 10-09-2012 05:31PM

The crux of the argument is how do we value a property, people will be in for a shock when a working property tax is introduced. When I was living in the UK my council tax was £1,000 a year for a 1 bed apartment along with water charges on top of that. This being Ireland a rate of over 1000 euro a year is foreseeable in the future.

thesimpsons · 10-09-2012 06:11PM

JP 1800 - how was the UK council tax worked out, property value or square footage ?

JP 1800 · 10-09-2012 06:20PM

Council taxes are in bands such as A, B, C ect. and based on a few factors such as the size of the property, the number of people living there, the location and how near you are to facilities such as pools, hospitals and police stations. I was living in a good area near Cardiff which had a lot of these facilities close by but my tax was only in band C.

Welease · 10-09-2012 06:21PM

thesimpsons wrote: »

JP 1800 - how was the UK council tax worked out, property value or square footage ?

Roughly.. Houses in areas were assessed and assigned a value (in the mid 80's).. those values fell within certain value bands.. and each council charged a rate based on those bands..

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/YourlocalcouncilandCouncilTax/CouncilTax/DG_10037383

Even though prices went up in the following 20+ years, most areas kept the same band brackets and value on houses.. So if a 3 bed semi in area was valued at 65K when the original pricing was done, it is likely a 3 bed semi in the area now would fall into the same price bracket even though it was now worth 250K. Similar new houses would also fall into the 65K bracket. (values above were one example of a property I owned in the UK).

If memory server (and the info will be available on the web) Scotland did a more recent update, and England/Wales will be doing updates (or may have already done so).

Damien360 · 10-09-2012 06:21PM

We currently pay bin charges of €400 and household charge of €100. My house is valued at €130,000 at a push. (one for sale in bad order on estate for €100,000)

Therefore already close to 0.4% for me and I am sure many others.

christmas2012 · 10-09-2012 06:24PM

The IMF need to talk about a cut in their salaries in the spirit of cutting wages and implementing further taxes..

not yet · 10-09-2012 06:26PM

I bought an apartment in 2005 for 235k, it is now worth 90k with a 180k mortgage.

Now if this government think I'm paying a property tax on something I will never own they can fcuk right off, end of.

Water charge, yes I have no problem paying this, as it is a resource I use.

Tea drinker · 10-09-2012 07:35PM

not yet wrote: »

I bought an apartment in 2005 for 235k, it is now worth 90k with a 180k mortgage.

Now if this government think I'm paying a property tax on something I will never own they can fcuk right off, end of.

Water charge, yes I have no problem paying this, as it is a resource I use.

So you saved yourself 50 - 60 grand of rent as well, not such a bad deal then?

d4v1d · 10-09-2012 08:06PM

RoverJames wrote: »

The fair implementation of this tax will be crucial.

This is not a personal attack, but I find comments like this ridiculous. How can any tax be fair? If someone owns a property and can't afford to pay the tax, let it accumulate on the property until it is either sold and repaid or the tax becomes more than the value of the property and the state takes ownership.

So what if a few people lose their house. In any system we need to accept losses. It's just the way it is. I say to hell with trying to make it fair and try to make it simple instead, everyone pays 0.5%.

Fair just means unfair for someone else.

mightybashful · 10-09-2012 08:10PM

d4v1d wrote: »

RoverJames wrote: »

The fair implementation of this tax will be crucial.

This is not a personal attack, but I find comments like this ridiculous. How can any tax be fair? If someone owns a property and can't afford to pay the tax, let it accumulate on the property until it is either sold and repaid or the tax becomes more than the value of the property and the state takes ownership.

So what if a few people lose their house. In any system we need to accept losses. It's just the way it is. I say to hell with trying to make it fair and try to make it simple instead, everyone pays 0.5%.

Fair just means unfair for someone else.

Good man

strandroad · 10-09-2012 08:18PM

RoverJames wrote: »

The fair implementation of this tax will be crucial.

I expect the usual fair - welfare recipients, OAPs and those below certain income exempt, cap on the tax low enough that for big gaffs it's comparatively peanuts. The middle will pay.
It will also do wonders (ekhm) for house prices as potential buyers will deduct this new tax, as well as water charges, from what they planned to spend on mortgage.

OMD · 10-09-2012 08:42PM

mhge wrote: »

I expect the usual fair - welfare recipients, OAPs and those below certain income exempt, cap on the tax low enough that for big gaffs it's comparatively peanuts. The middle will pay.
It will also do wonders (ekhm) for house prices as potential buyers will deduct this new tax, as well as water charges, from what they planned to spend on mortgage.

renters will pay it too. The cost will be added to the rent. So it shouldn't effect house prices too much as it won't change supply and demand. Yes in theory people will not buy more expensive houses but then that increases demand for slightly less expensive ones thus pushing up their price.

strandroad · 10-09-2012 08:48PM

OMD wrote: »

renters will pay it too. The cost will be added to the rent. So it shouldn't effect house prices too much as it won't change supply and demand. Yes in theory people will not buy more expensive houses but then that increases demand for slightly less expensive ones thus pushing up their price.

It won't change supply and demand but will decrease disposable income for pretty much everyone; and with that pushing up prices won't go very far.

Good loser · 11-09-2012 11:54PM

not yet wrote: »

I bought an apartment in 2005 for 235k, it is now worth 90k with a 180k mortgage.

Now if this government think I'm paying a property tax on something I will never own they can fcuk right off, end of.

Water charge, yes I have no problem paying this, as it is a resource I use.

You already 'own' it - subject to a mortgage.

If you got a windfall of €200k or won the lotto would you pay then?

You won't be given an option.

Luckily taxes are not voluntary - else f--k all would be collected.

NIMAN · 11-09-2012 11:55PM

The fact that you are in negative equity is irrelevant to the debate, harsh as this may sound.

BOHtox · 12-09-2012 12:24AM

What this tax does do is collect money from those who earn nothing but have a lot of assets.

avalon68 · 12-09-2012 12:28AM

not yet wrote: »

I bought an apartment in 2005 for 235k, it is now worth 90k with a 180k mortgage.

Now if this government think I'm paying a property tax on something I will never own they can fcuk right off, end of.

Water charge, yes I have no problem paying this, as it is a resource I use.

People the world over pay property taxes....negative equity or not Im afraid. I would consider it a bonus that you havent had to pay it until now, but ultimately its necessary to have a sustainable tax like this in place. In future people will budget in tax payments before purchasing. Yes it sucks to dish out money - it would be a much easier sell if certain services (bin collection) were provided and the money remained local. However, you say you are willing to pay for water as you use it - do you not also use power lines, roads, hospitals, schools, police, fire fighters etc?

Yourwellcum · 12-09-2012 09:46AM

not yet wrote: »

I bought an apartment in 2005 for 235k, it is now worth 90k with a 180k mortgage.

Now if this government think I'm paying a property tax on something I will never own they can fcuk right off, end of.

Water charge, yes I have no problem paying this, as it is a resource I use.

You will own it outright at the same point you would of owned it had prices not fallen. Negative equity is irrelevant if you are paying back the mortgage.

The only impact it has is on your ability to move somewhere else should you wish to.

Gumbo · 12-09-2012 10:32AM

Yourwellcum wrote: »

Negative equity is irrelevant if you are paying back the mortgage.

The only impact it has is on your ability to move somewhere else should you wish to.

It also affects you where by your paying the high purchase price during a time of paycuts and extra taxes. OK, we all signed the forms ourselves, nobody forced us to, and thats no problem, i will continue paying my mortgage for as long as i can.

But with pay going down, taxes going up and everything in between going up, whether that be ESB, Bord Gais, Home Insurance etc etc Even Aldi have increased their prices recently, shopping is going up, fuel coats etc etc again

The first think i will cut back on is my mortgage payment.

bbam · 12-09-2012 01:32PM

Who gets to value the property.
Is this another windfall for estate agents?
After skimming off profits during the boom are they to be thrown a guaranteed job of work to value all houses in the country.

Will there be an appeal mechanism for the value of property, after all the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it, not what some beaurocrat thinks its worth.

bullvine · 12-09-2012 01:36PM

I keep hearing the same thing over and over that the UK has it but can someone tell me. Did the UK pay the same amount of massive Stamp Duty that a lot of people in the last 10 years have paid.

avalon68 · 12-09-2012 01:46PM

bullvine wrote: »

I keep hearing the same thing over and over that the UK has it but can someone tell me. Did the UK pay the same amount of massive Stamp Duty that a lot of people in the last 10 years have paid.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/TaxOnPropertyAndRentalIncome/DG_4015918

Seems there is some sort of stamp duty

avalon68 · 12-09-2012 01:49PM

bbam wrote: »

Who gets to value the property.
Is this another windfall for estate agents?
After skimming off profits during the boom are they to be thrown a guaranteed job of work to value all houses in the country.

Will there be an appeal mechanism for the value of property, after all the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it, not what some beaurocrat thinks its worth.

How were they skimming off profits? If you were selling a property, you agreed a fee with them....collecting their fee isnt skimming - its being paid what was agreed upon. Im not sure how they value properties in the UK for tax purposes, but using estate agents could be problematic anyway - if you call 3 different agents, you will likely get three different valuations.

bullvine · 12-09-2012 01:53PM

avalon68 wrote: »

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/TaxOnPropertyAndRentalIncome/DG_4015918

Seems there is some sort of stamp duty

Doesnt seem to be as high as it was in this country though but I could be mistaken or they may have changed it recently like it has in this country. Also so much for those clowns saying anybody in the last 7 years who had paid it would be excempt from Stamp Duty.

cytex · 12-09-2012 02:02PM

Good loser wrote: »

You already 'own' it - subject to a mortgage.

If you got a windfall of €200k or won the lotto would you pay then?

You won't be given an option.

Luckily taxes are not voluntary - else f--k all would be collected.

Actually your wrong he will never own this property with this tax. the most he can own is 99.75% If the goverment dont decide they are "owed" a bigger share.

only a idiot would pay this tax full stop it signes over a portion of YOUR property to the state For absoultely nothing in return . It is Theft plain and simple.

cytex · 12-09-2012 02:05PM

bullvine wrote: »

I keep hearing the same thing over and over that the UK has it but can someone tell me. Did the UK pay the same amount of massive Stamp Duty that a lot of people in the last 10 years have paid.

No idea about the stamp duty.

But the uk doesnt have the property tax they have council rates where everyone pays for there services . they get bins collected amoung other things for this charge and it doesnt matter if you own or rent your liable.
A lien does not get taken out against your house unless you are shown to both
a. Be able to afford the tax .
B. Refuse to pay the tax .
this is done through a ccj on the person . This means that property rights are not effected.

Nothing like our tax at all where you get absoultley nothing for it . In fact there is no country in the world with a tax like ours.

who_me · 12-09-2012 02:11PM

avalon68 wrote: »

People the world over pay property taxes....negative equity or not Im afraid. I would consider it a bonus that you havent had to pay it until now, but ultimately its necessary to have a sustainable tax like this in place. In future people will budget in tax payments before purchasing. Yes it sucks to dish out money - it would be a much easier sell if certain services (bin collection) were provided and the money remained local. However, you say you are willing to pay for water as you use it - do you not also use power lines, roads, hospitals, schools, police, fire fighters etc?

It's true that other countries have property taxes; most other countries also have lower VAT rates, lower maximum income tax rates, (much) lower VRT, and better services provided in return. I wouldn't consider it any kind of a 'bonus' that we haven't had to pay it.

It is odd though when applied to negative equity, given it's one of the few times when debt is being taxed!

murphaph · 12-09-2012 02:12PM

cytex wrote: »

Nothing like our tax at all where you get absoultley nothing for it . In fact there is no country in the world with a tax like ours.

I have to pay €300 a year in Berlin in property taxes straight to the tax office (note: not for services, we pay the city separately for all services) for "nothing" in return. It's almost the exact same thing except in Germany the rates appear much higher (I pay 300 on a 70m² flat worth app. 50k).

Zamboni · 12-09-2012 02:13PM

Valuation is in the eye of the beholder.
This tax will be nigh on impossible to implement on an equitable basis.

Who is the valuer?
Who polices the valuer?
Can the value be appealed?
Value is a moving target. How often does a valuation take place?
If it is to be undertaken by external private entities, who pays for the valuation?
If it is to be undertaken by external private entities it will be open for abuse.
Which body will implement the tax?

I patiently await the full details of the implementation of this tax with bated breath and expected dissapointment.

Property tax rate

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