Abortion

Khannie wrote: »

Disagree. I don't think my 2.5 year old has been socially conditioned to grieve for example, but if I died she would definitely grieve. On a recent work trip I have seen how my absence for a prolonged period affected her. I think grief is built into humans. You don't grieve? Grand of course. I think it's unusual though and nothing to do with conditioning (else you would be subject to the same conditioning).

Social Conditioning affects people to different degrees. Even 2.5 year olds have been exposed to a great deal. The child may have an instinctual biological reaction to it's source of food/shelter/comfort being absent until another is identified. We would maybe like to make it personal and call it 'grief'. We are flattered by this dependency and we embrace 'grief' as positive. I see your point though I just have taken a slightly different view as I have struggled to find this 'grief'.

lugha wrote: »

Thus we (pro-choicers) will afford people the freedom to personally decide on the ethics, but only on the singular, isolated question of abortion. On all other grave matters, you must be bound by societal rules. Surely this anomaly is a testament to our capacity for rationalisation? (This of course be is a question for someone on the other side of the fence)

Incest makes me feel queasy and a little uneasy and being fully honest gay men kissing and holding hands used to too. (Thankfully, not any longer.) However, as much as I don't like the vibes I get from Incest, I don't think it should be outlawed or made illegal. As long as there's mutual consent among mature adults and no grooming or underhandedness involved, then who am I to tell them what is right or wrong? (Incest leading to reproduction is another matter - but it's still an ethically grey area.) I also don't drink. I find our drink culture reproachable at times but that doesn't mean I'm going to wish for the enforcement of an all out ban on alcohol. Even though I cannot fathom why you need to get pissed off your face to have a good time.

Yeah, I guess, you could say I'm liberal. Very liberal probably, but really I think that's the only reasonable stance to have on issues that get complicated and as it turns out abortion gets very complicated. If I ask anyone "What is life?" Nobody can give me a definite answer. To use the old cliché if life truly begins at conception why doesn't death begin at total decay? Why is that a person is classed as dead when there's still a hand, limbs, brain, organs present? Yet a foetus that doesn't even have any of these is suddenly alive? What happens if that foetus fails to develop a head? Was it alive but is now dead. Was it never alive. Surely an human entity without a head isn't classed as a person. Then you've got twinning, does one person somehow magically become two? And then what happens if the twins recombine? Should we charge one of the twins with murder?

There's too many grey areas that are constantly brushed past and that's why I see abortion purely as an issue on the denial of rights issue. I think it's unfortunate that the father gets so little say but really it is an issue between the rights of the foetus and the rights of the woman. She's definitely human and if we're to be consistent assuming the foetus is a person from conception then surely the rights should be equally spread at most? I don't get how the right to life trumps the rights of another to bodily integrity. To use an analogous situation suppose I kidnap you and a female stranger and in my mad maniacal moments surgically attach her to you so she is now your only means of existing. Should she be forced to keep you alive even though her quality of life is markedly affected? It's unfortunate that you'd have to die but I don't see why the woman should be forced against her will to sustain you for nine months. Now, I appreciate you can say the difference is I forcibly attached you to the woman's body and the foetus got no say in the matter. The women herself had sex so she knew the potential risks that were at stake but then what about rape? Why does the foetus's right trumps hers here and yet if you look elsewhere in society . . .
We don't force people to give blood, we don't force mandatory vaccinations on people so that those who can't get vaccinated actually have immunity from the herd, we don't force mandatory organ donations, yet here on nothing more than religious speculation,potentiality and fears, we force a woman into a course of action she might not necessarily have wanted.
All because we supposedly care about everyone's right to life? It's hypocritical. If life really is so precious why don't we show it everywhere where there's unquestionably life? Why is that only when the possibility for life is concerned we harp off all the things about rights, concerns, morality, ethics. My personal viewpoint, if the best a person can offer is that the foetus has the "potential" then I'm the potential overlord of this planet and you should regard me as such right now. A potential person isn't an actual person, the logic in the claim is ludicrous. And if you truly believe life begins at conception then you'd have to admit that when given the choice between saving a live newborn kitten (not a human, not ever going to be a person) or a vessel containing 100 embryos that can be readily implanted for gestation from a burning inferno, you'd save the vessel because that's would result in saving 100 lives. Even if the number of embryonic cells numbered in the billions, I'd save the kitten and I hate cats.

So even though abortion still makes me feel morally queasy at times*, I still think that choice should be there for everyone to make. It's too grey an area to blanketly declare a position on one way or the other. Until there's some consistency and reasonableness in someone's framework for either side I plan to remain neutral on the issue but by default that means I can't deny a woman her right to choose for herself.

*My position on it changes almost weekly. The question I keep asking myself at what point in the burning inferno scenario would I sacrifice the kitten? How old would the foetus have to be? Even that scenario is only really examining my intuitions. When I try to examine it rationally it gets even harder again. In all these cases though I still don't consider the foetus a person - so no, I don't think I'll ever consider it murder.

/lunchtime rant over.

Khannie wrote: »

Nice one. Well that clears that up. I had actually thought it might have had an effect on a fertilised egg so that is good to know. Pretty sure that perception came from an abortion discussion in tLL many moons ago, which prompted me to swear that I would never engage in another abortion discussion ever again in the history of the universe. This one has been fairly pleasant all round though.

Levonelle

Levonelle® One Step is thought to work in different ways depending on where you are in your cycle. For example:

It may stop an egg being released from the ovary (i.e. prevents ovulation)
It may prevent sperm from fertilising any egg that may already have been released
It may stop a fertilised egg from attaching itself to the lining of the womb

You were right in your previous thinking. See the bit in bold.

Has no one noticed what a fucking weird post Jernal has made?

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Has no one noticed what a fucking weird post Jernal has made?

I was letting it slide to be honest.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

For me though, I would have thought "established pregnancy" was fertilisation?

It's a grey area (like most areas ). I wouldn't consider an ectopic pregnancy to be "established" for example, though it is a fertilised egg.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I feel really guilty...

Don't feel guilty. These things can't be measured. Too many variables. May have prevented you ovulating etc. as minxx pointed out.

Fizzlesque wrote: »

How do you know she's happy? Can you be sure she doesn't feel abandoned by me, or think badly of me? How do you know she wasn't treated badly by her adopted parents? How do you know she doesn't curse the fact she was ever born?

Thing is, you don't, and neither do I.

I hope you're right, I hope she is happy ---- oh how I hope that's the case, but only one person can answer that question, and it ain't you or me.



Job not done. Only one person can make me feel better, and that one person is not yet ready to take on board the enormous emotional baggage that that would involve. That's presuming she ever will be.

I assumed that by giving a baby up for adoption you couldn't take care of the baby properly at the time and the family who adopted it could, hence she would be happier! I wouldn't feel too bad about it unless you did something horribly wrong or something which I don't think ya did!

Out of curiosity. When someone adopts a baby away in Ireland do they know where the baby went, how she's doing etc. and can they contact him/her? Just curious!

Sponge25 wrote: »

I'm not comparing abortion with rape but I could never under ANY circumstance remotely understand why someone who rape someone else! Even if it's their wife or a prostitute etc. I wouldn't even try to undersstand their motives. I believe these people ought to be executed!

You seem to have very drastic views and make statements calling for exectution and calling people evil. I'm going to agree that you are either much younger than you say (as already suggested) or a troll.

Sponge25 wrote: »

I assumed that by giving a baby up for adoption you couldn't take care of the baby properly at the time and the family who adopted it could, hence she would be happier! I wouldn't feel too bad about it unless you did something horribly wrong or something which I don't think ya did!

Out of curiosity. When someone adopts a baby away in Ireland do they know where the baby went, how she's doing etc. and can they contact him/her? Just curious!

Leave it alone! Fizzle told us of her experience yesterday and it was very obvious that it is still very upsetting and unsettling for her. A decent person would have left it there. I very much doubt whether she needs your half-hearted moral support and lukewarm approval with your 'At least you didn't terminate the baby...' and 'I wouldn't feel too bad about it....'

I'm beginning to think you are some kind of crap journalist trying to squeeze the bones of an article out of this thread. From post to post your style changes - one minute you're using perfectly correct English grammar and syntax, the next you're posting 'American', then you ask a series of questions a ten year old would be ashamed of - all of your posts seem designed to provoke responses and reactions and not the usual kind.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm no fan of abortion but I see even less logic and empathy for human life in enforced pregnancy

It's a harsh and sensationalist term to use, so I can only assume you know that when you use it. It's just like "anti-choice". I'm not in favour of enforced pregnancy at all and I'm sure most people who dislike abortion dislike the notion of forcing pregnancy on anyone. It's not like I'm shoving a fertilised egg into somebodies womb though. It's not enforced that way. I'd much prefer if you used a less sensationalist term tbh.

When I was a youngfella ridin' like the clappers I was well aware that any resulting pregnancy was going to result in a baby. I took that on the chin and I was bloody careful because of it. There would have been nothing enforced about it if a pregnancy happened. Two consenting people would have made a baby that they didn't want. The limited number of people that I slept with (mostly I had reasonably long relationships when I was a youngfella) I'm confident would have gone to term, despite neither of us wanting the baby (and I did have close calls).

Yes accidents happen. Yes sometimes people find themselves in horrible situations (pregnant from rape etc.). My belief though is that some, possibly large, percentage of people would be a shed load less careful knowing that "ah sure the option of an abortion is there". I was absolutely shocked (and to be honest sickened) by some of the statistics on abortion that I've seen for other countries in this thread. I have experienced first hand the difference in how people in other countries perceive a pregnancy and how flippantly they perceive abortion and it is my hope that that mentality never enters this country.

Just for clarity folks....any posts I make in this thread are firmly with admin hat off. I'm just a regular Joe having a discussion. Except I'm better than you of course. :pac:

There's only one bipolar joe...I'm "regular Joe".