Abortion

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 05:22PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

You have what?

That's all great and flowery and lovely but again, with your approach to counselling, you will try to find empathy with rapists and pedophiles, correct?

That doesn't make what they've done ok?

I'll try and understand people's motives yes. I don't know anything about the mindset of rapists or pedophiles. I can't say why they do what they do, if they are sick or just bad people. I'll let others better qualified do that.

I don't think women who have abortions are like them though, rape and child abuse are crimes, abortion is not.

tomtherobot · 06-09-2012 05:22PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Why would I say that? If a friend lost a baby early on for example and was in bits over it I would totally support her. Just because I might not feel the same level of grief as she does doesn't mean I'm right and she's wrong or vice versa. I deal with people who get upset over things I personally wouldn't all the time but its not about how I feel about their situation its all about them.

So if you were counseling somebody and thought their grief was worsened by them not knowing the facts of the situation you wouldn't tell them the facts?

If i came to you for grief counseling because i thought my mum was violently murdered. If you knew that actually she died peacefully of natural causes, you wouldn't tell me?

Idle Passerby · 06-09-2012 05:22PM

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

no ****?

Just coz your pregnant doesn't mean you will suffer morning sickness or miss a period. Everyone knows that. :rolleyes:

Anyway, 12 weeks, 14, 16, 18 whatever, doesn't matter it's still not a person, it's just a foetus, so it can still be terminated.

Im not anti-abortion, I was just pointing out that "most women don't know they're pregnant at 12 weeks" is not a factual statement. The remark that an abortion at that point would be redundant is a silly one since no one would shlep over to an abortion clinic in Britain if they didn't already know they were pregnant. It was a silly comment.

Fizzlesque · 06-09-2012 05:24PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Vasectomy anyone?
Reversible if you change your mind

Funny you should post that, because I was thinking along similar lines earlier - perhaps more men should have a vasectomy (especially those who are militantly opposed to abortion) and have it reversed when they're ready to start a family.

tomtherobot · 06-09-2012 05:24PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I can't say why they do what they do, if they are sick or just bad people. I'll let others better qualified do that.

Then don't give the impression your counseling background adds weight to you're opinions on the rights and wrongs of abortion.

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 05:24PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

So if you were counseling somebody and thought their grief was worsened by them not knowing the facts of the situation you wouldn't tell them the facts?

If i came to you for grief counseling because i thought my mum was violently murdered. If you knew that actually she died peacefully of natural causes, you wouldn't tell me?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Mickeroo · 06-09-2012 05:27PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

So if you were counseling somebody and thought their grief was worsened by them not knowing the facts of the situation you wouldn't tell them the facts?

If i came to you for grief counseling because i thought my mum was violently murdered. If you knew that actually she died peacefully of natural causes, you wouldn't tell me?

What an astoundingly ridiculous question. What on earth are you talking about?

Morag · 06-09-2012 05:27PM

Fizzlesque wrote: »

Funny you should post that, because I was thinking along similar lines earlier - perhaps more men should have a vasectomy (especially those who are militantly opposed to abortion) and have it reversed when they're ready to start a family.

When they are done the drs say that they should be treated as irreversible.
The new gel injection option is not available here.

tomtherobot · 06-09-2012 05:27PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

If somebody you are counseling is suffering because of a false belief, would you set them right on that belief or allow them to suffer?

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 05:28PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

Then don't give the impression your counseling background adds weight to you're opinions on the rights and wrongs of abortion.

I never said it did

I mentioned it because you said in an earlier post that people shouldn't be paying taxes to help people who are in situations of their own making. I made the point I deal with people in violent relationships, one could argue that is of their own making and I asked you would you stop the state supporting my employer ( which you didn't answer )

My opinion is only an opinion, no more or less valid than yours but having been through an abortion personally I think my experience is important to debunk the myths that are on these threads.

oranbhoy67 · 06-09-2012 05:30PM

Fizzlesque wrote: »

Funny you should post that, because I was thinking along similar lines earlier - perhaps more men should have a vasectomy (especially those who are militantly opposed to abortion) and have it reversed when they're ready to start a family.

whats the difference between militantly opposed to abortion & just opposed???

I hate the way people make out that men dont have a say on abortion.. im sorry., it is a Womans body off course , but she is carrying a mans child always.

Im all for womens rights , but that does not include the right to take another humans life.. it is something that i will never ever agree with pro- abortionists on!

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 05:31PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

If somebody you are counseling is suffering because of a false belief, would you set them right on that belief or allow them to suffer?

If you think you mum was murdered when in fact she died in her sleep, she died a peaceful death. That is a FACT. So yeah I would tell you.

Re a pregnant woman having a miscarriage in the first few weeks, the whole "is it a life" thing is really up to the person themselves. So I wouldn't disrespect a woman who is grieving by telling her she is over reacting.

Would you tell a woman who has a miscarriage and is okay with it that she should be in mourning ?

tomtherobot · 06-09-2012 05:33PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I never said it did I mentioned it because you said in an earlier post that people shouldn't be paying taxes to help people who are in situations of their own making. I made the point I deal with people in violent relationships, one could argue that is of their own making and I asked you would you stop the state supporting my employer ( which you didn't answer )

My opinion is only an opinion, no more or less valid than yours but having been through an abortion personally I think my experience is important to debunk the myths that are on these threads.

This is the first time you've mentioned your abortion. As regards your being a counselor I never said that people who suffer domestic abuse shouldn't get counseling, in fact i have been quite clear in saying they should.

I don't think that people who perpetrate domestic violence, or that might advocate it as a fair choice, are in a position to demand state funding for it's victims.

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 05:37PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

This is the first time you've mentioned your abortion. As regards your being a counselor I never said that people who suffer domestic abuse shouldn't get counseling, in fact i have been quite clear in saying they should.

I don't think that people who perpetrate domestic violence, or that might advocate it as a fair choice, are in a position to demand state funding for it's victims.

Post 22 I mentioned it. I don't know how to link it. Go back and read.

The state does give funding to help for people who are violent to their partners. The idea being that if we deal with them rather than always deal with their victims we reduce the number of victims, have a lot less violence and therefore save money.

tomtherobot · 06-09-2012 05:38PM

eviltwin wrote: »

So I wouldn't disrespect a woman who is grieving by telling her she is over reacting.

But by saying an unborn child isn't really alive, it's clearly implicit that somebody is overreacting if their grieving a death.

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 05:40PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

But by saying an unborn child isn't really alive, it's clearly implicit that somebody is overreacting if their grieving a death.

But that's MY opinion. Its not hers so I am not going to make her feel worse than she already is. Its about knowing when to shut the fcuk up.

tomtherobot · 06-09-2012 05:40PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Post 22 I mentioned it. I don't know how to link it. Go back and read.

Fair enough, i need to catch up on my reading.

eviltwin wrote: »

The state does give funding to help for people who are violent to their partners. The idea being that if we deal with them rather than always deal with their victims we reduce the number of victims, have a lot less violence and therefore save money.

Your talking about a different thing. Is it not hypocritical for the perpetrators of domestic violence, or those that would justify it, to demand state funding for it's victims?

Morag · 06-09-2012 05:45PM

People grieve potential life's and potential children.
It happens you don't have to even have been pregnant for it to happen.

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 05:47PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

Your talking about a different thing. Is it not hypocritical for the perpetrators of domestic violence, or those that would justify it, to demand state funding for it's victims?

Sorry I misread your post. I imagine some of those people hate the fact their taxes are going to the likes of Amen or Safe Ireland. Equally there are probably victims who have been abused by partners angry the state gives money to legal aid for these guys.

To go back to the abortion issue I know many people who are pro-life who work with post abortion services, some do it for free! They don't agree with abortion but are mature enough to realise that it happens and needs to be dealt with. Approx 250 women a day travel overseas to have one. Its not right to leave the ones who are suffering to just get by on their own. Long term those women and men could have huge issues that could have massive implications for them, their family, society as a whole really.

Martyn1989 · 06-09-2012 05:50PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

I don't know why these issues always have to be about being 'fair' to men and women. Men and woman are biologically different therefore there are many facts of life that will shift this balance of 'fairness' from one to the other across the board. IMO it is the womans body therefore would be the womans choice ultimately, and regardless of that mans opinion on the matter it is his responsibility as the father to be in the childs life and pay his share of the costs associated with bringing up a child.

tomtherobot · 06-09-2012 05:52PM

eviltwin wrote: »

But that's MY opinion. Its not hers so I am not going to make her feel worse than she already is. Its about knowing when to shut the fcuk up.

Well my friend when it comes to right and wrong, im sure you know, there is no universal fact. There is no scientific proof that it is right or wrong to kill. People formulate opinions and use these opinions, beliefs or morals (call them what you will) to establish codes we should live by.

In establishing these codes we often use human experience as guideline. Experience shows that the grief suffered through miscarriage or stillbirth being greater than the 'sense of loss' possible from say, contraception, allows that something tangible has been lost.

This to me is as close as we will get to proof that an unborn child has 'life' and because i respect the grief of a child lost in this manner, as i respect the grief of life lost in other ways, I believe we should protect this life, even if it means not shutting up because it's the easy choice.

Khannie · 06-09-2012 05:57PM

eviltwin wrote: »

But that's MY opinion. Its not hers so I am not going to make her feel worse than she already is. Its about knowing when to shut the fcuk up.

It's an interesting point though. Would your opinion be that someone who's grieving for the loss of an early pregnancy is overreacting because from your perspective it's just a bunch of cells?

I mean, I don't like it when people kill insects. Not at all. I think it would be overreacting to grieve for them though.

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 05:59PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

Well my friend when it comes to right and wrong, im sure you know, there is no universal fact. There is no scientific proof that it is right or wrong to kill. People formulate opinions and use these opinions, beliefs or morals (call them what you will) to establish codes we should live by.

In establishing these codes we often use human experience as guideline. Experience shows that the grief suffered through miscarriage or stillbirth being greater than the 'sense of loss' possible from say, contraception, allows that something tangible has been lost.

This to me is as close as we will get to proof that an unborn child has 'life' and because i respect the grief of a child lost in this manner, as i respect the grief of life lost in other ways, I believe we should protect this life, even if it means not shutting up because it's the easy choice.

Women accessing support after an abortion have already done the deed so there won't be any life to save, why deny them help then if they need it, its not going to change anything.

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 06:01PM

Khannie wrote: »

It's an interesting point though. Would your opinion be that someone who's grieving for the loss of an early pregnancy is overreacting because from your perspective it's just a bunch of cells?

I mean, I don't like it when people kill insects. Not at all. I think it would be overreacting to grieve for them though.

Dunno, depends again on the situation. I know women trying for babies who have had meltdowns when they get their period. I personally can't understand that reaction but like I said before its not my place to tell them how they should feel.

Mickeroo · 06-09-2012 06:12PM

Khannie wrote: »

It's an interesting point though. Would your opinion be that someone who's grieving for the loss of an early pregnancy is overreacting because from your perspective it's just a bunch of cells?

I mean, I don't like it when people kill insects. Not at all. I think it would be overreacting to grieve for them though.

Not everyone who has a miscarriage grieves for the loss of their pregnancy, some just accept it and try again. Miscarriages are fairly common in the early stage of a pregnancy are they not? It's a personal thing, there's no real definitive answer. Personally I can't compare a miscarriage to killing an insect tbh.

If someone's trying to have kids I'd imagine a miscarriage is a pretty emotional experience after the initial excitement of being pregnant, to be already dreaming of the child that will arrive in 9 months only to have that taken away and having to try again. It's not particularly easy to get pregnant in the first place a lot of the time, I know a couple who were trying for almost a year before it finally happened, of course a miscarriage could be devastating.

I really don't understand this line of questioning tbh as miscarrying a child you wanted to have is entirely different to aborting one you don't though I imagine both can be extremely traumatising in their own way.

Khannie · 06-09-2012 06:17PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Personally I can't compare a miscarriage to killing an insect tbh.

Ah it's just part of the discussion. I'm trying to understand the extent of the opposing view really. It's an extension of the "just a bunch of cells" / "not a human" notion.

Neyite · 06-09-2012 06:19PM

Khannie wrote: »

What hospital was that Neyite? We've had more than statistically significant number of miscarriages and for our last 4 pregnancies we've been sent to the early pregnancy unit for scans without any issue at all. We just rang the hospital and asked if memory serves (Rotunda).

It was Galway city. I was told a month or so afterwards by a midwife that if I had just turned up, they could not have turned me away, but me being polite thought it would be manners to call them first. Wont make that mistake again!

Sponge25 wrote: »

How long does it take before a lady feels symptomatic of pregnancy? Anyone ever seen 'I didn't know I was pregnant' or some similiar titled documentary about women who suddenly find themselves giving birth in the bath or the kitchen floor without even knowing they were pregnant untill they went into labour!?

The only symptom I had, right up until the kicking started was missed periods. If I hadnt been tracking and actively trying to get pregnant, and peeing on lots of sticks, I probably wouldnt have noticed a missed period for a few weeks otherwise. But rarely women can have zero symptoms and continue to have periods.

Khannie · 06-09-2012 06:21PM

Meant to answer this....

Mickeroo wrote: »

Miscarriages are fairly common in the early stage of a pregnancy are they not?

Around the 20% mark (from memory).

Morag · 06-09-2012 06:22PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

I really don't understand this line of questioning tbh as miscarrying a child you wanted to have is entirely different to aborting one you don't though I imagine both can be extremely traumatising in their own way.

I do, cos even if a woman chooses to have an abortion there is always the what if. Those women also greive even if it was the right choice for them. But when what would have been the due date some around and for the next few years the date of the abortion and what would have been the birthday of the baby they didn't' have comes around they will get upset over it.

It's normal, but what isn't is not being able to tell anyone why they are upset/sad/down/off forum. It can be hard when in families someone close to her later announces they are pregnant and is due around the same time.

It is the same emotional roller coaster as a woman who has had a miscarriage but it's not that long ago that those who had miscarriages suffered in the same sort of silence not telling anyone, or only telling a few were as for most of the thousands of women who have had abortions they couldn't tell anyone for fear of of the shunning, shaming and abuse they would have gotten.

I know I am one of the few lucky ones who was able to tell family and friends get support and I was able then able to be there for when family members miscarried and explain the emotional and mental roller coaster and help them with it.

tomtherobot · 06-09-2012 06:24PM

Khannie wrote: »

I mean, I don't like it when people kill insects. Not at all. I think it would be overreacting to grieve for them though.

TBH if i lose my car keys I fall to pieces. Most people don't. From this i can deduce that for most people loosing car keys isn't such a big loss.

If i take it that people typically suffer more from the loss of miscarriage than the potential loss of contraception or masturbation I can deduce that something more important has been lost.

Science can't tell me it's wrong to kill. We base that moral code on the value we give to human life, which is largely deduced from our intuitive relationship to human life.

I'm arguing we can use this same intuitive deduction to show the value of life before birth. Why do people (even pro-abortionists) talk about the trauma involved with abortion if something valuable hasn't been lost?

Abortion

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