Abortion

Actor · 06-09-2012 08:51AM

seamus wrote: »

If a person is in a persistent vegetative state, then I see no issue with taking the merciful route for all and allowing them to die quickly, painlessly and with dignity.

Would you rather that they be kept alive? For what purpose?

People have woken up from comas after several years.

So basically, what you're saying is that you have no respect for early human life and late human life. I had better warn my granny that there's people like you wanting to get their hands on the levers of power.

gosuckonalemon · 06-09-2012 09:10AM

The thing that I find funny about this whole abortion debate is that it just seems to be pointless.

What does it matter if it's legalized here or not??

The only important thing to worry about is that it is never made illegal in the UK.

Until the day that it is, then Irish women in the future (and the 200,000 that have gone before them) have nothing to worry about.

Hopefully they can take solace from that fact.

seamus · 06-09-2012 09:11AM

Actor wrote: »

People have woken up from comas after several years.

A coma isn't a persistive vegetative state.

Once again you have shown your ignorance and complete lack of knowledge about the topic at hand.

optogirl · 06-09-2012 09:14AM

Actor wrote: »

Agree. Still don't support abortion for rape victims. It's terrible that they've been raped, but two wrongs don't make a right. In fact, abortion is a more severe crime than rape.

Troll

gosuckonalemon · 06-09-2012 09:16AM

optogirl wrote: »

Troll

Not a troll, just seriously deranged I reckon. Sad but very true that these people exist in today's society. Scary actually.

krudler · 06-09-2012 09:20AM

Actor wrote: »

Agree. Still don't support abortion for rape victims. It's terrible that they've been raped, but two wrongs don't make a right. In fact, abortion is a more severe crime than rape.

So a woman should raise a living, breathing reminder of a horrific event in her past she wanted no part of, changing her life because of the will of someone else? that seems like a better option to you than her possibly having a child when she wants with someone who is a partner? ok then..

krudler · 06-09-2012 09:30AM

Actor wrote: »

Evidently you haven't thought about this issue in any great depth.

Do you think those in a vegitative state should be "put down"?

would you want to live in a vegetative state for the remainder of your life? wearing nappies or having nurses doing things for you, no mobility of your own, unable to communicate and basically being a prisoner in your own body? this is a humane thing to do?

06-09-2012 09:43AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I think the point is that the rape victim's health is more important than that of the baby. The psychological trauma of carrying a baby resulting from rape is likely to to ruin you for life. It's not about the baby being guilty.

The psychological trauma of any unwanted pregnancy could ruin you for life

Either people are about the life of the foetus or they aren't

krudler · 06-09-2012 09:49AM

bluewolf wrote: »

The psychological trauma of any unwanted pregnancy could ruin you for life

Either people are about the life of the foetus or they aren't

I love this line of thinking "all human life is precious and should be saved, oh except rape babies"

Maximus Alexander · 06-09-2012 09:49AM

bluewolf wrote: »

The psychological trauma of any unwanted pregnancy could ruin you for life

Either people are about the life of the foetus or they aren't

Yeah, all issues in life are black or white. There's no such thing as a middle ground.

06-09-2012 09:51AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Yeah, all issues in life are black or white. There's no such thing as a middle ground.

Not when prolifers are pro life except when "it's not her fault" and life doesn't matter anymore

OldNotWIse · 06-09-2012 09:52AM

dodderangler wrote: »

Ffs another abortion thread
I say we should abort these threads!!!

Then we might need a counselling thread because we have aborted the abortion thread...

Maximus Alexander · 06-09-2012 09:55AM

bluewolf wrote: »

Not when prolifers are pro life except when "it's not her fault" and life doesn't matter anymore

That only makes the kind of sense that you think it does, if you bucket people into black (let's say "pro-life") and white (let's say "pro-choice"). The other option is that people have a wide range of opinions and codes of ethics that don't fall neatly into those buckets. That sounds a lot like Red vs Blue politics.

It should not be US vs THEM, it should be "What's the best solution we can find for this issue?"

In the case of rape victims, you need to weigh the well-being of the victim mother, against that of the victim child.

For me at least, the mother wins that one.

blacklilly · 06-09-2012 09:58AM

krudler wrote: »

Actor wrote: »

Agree. Still don't support abortion for rape victims. It's terrible that they've been raped, but two wrongs don't make a right. In fact, abortion is a more severe crime than rape.

So a woman should raise a living, breathing reminder of a horrific event in her past she wanted no part of, changing her life because of the will of someone else? that seems like a better option to you than her possibly having a child when she wants with someone who is a partner? ok then..

There is the option of adoption

Millicent · 06-09-2012 10:08AM

blacklilly wrote: »

There is the option of adoption

Only if you're unmarried.

06-09-2012 10:11AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

In the case of rape victims, you need to weigh the well-being of the victim mother, against that of the victim child.

For me at least, the mother wins that one.

Then in any case of unwanted pregnancy you should take the well being of the potential mother into account, because it's not all sunshine just because it's not rape.

krudler · 06-09-2012 10:14AM

blacklilly wrote: »

There is the option of adoption

you'll still know there's a child you never wanted and were forced into giving birth to out there. Not to mention all the issues related to pregnancy, how would you feel sending 9 months of your life carrying your rapists child around in your womb, knowing it was never going to be around you once it was born? putting your body through that then recovering from the birth and all because some guy raped you. nobody has the right to tell a woman she should endure that.

Maximus Alexander · 06-09-2012 10:15AM

bluewolf wrote: »

Then in any case of unwanted pregnancy you should take the well being of the potential mother into account, because it's not all sunshine just because it's not rape.

Oh, I do take it in to account, and I come down on the side of the baby.

Gurgle · 06-09-2012 10:18AM

krudler wrote: »

how would you feel sending 9 months of your life carrying your rapists child around in your womb, knowing it was never going to be around you once it was born?

With proper support and counseling, she should feel like a hero.

06-09-2012 10:23AM

Actor wrote: »

Agree. Still don't support abortion for rape victims. It's terrible that they've been raped, but two wrongs don't make a right. In fact, abortion is a more severe crime than rape.

Mod

Any further comments like that will lead me to believe that you are infact trolling, and you will earn yourself a ban.

blacklilly · 06-09-2012 10:26AM

krudler wrote: »

blacklilly wrote: »

There is the option of adoption

you'll still know there's a child you never wanted and were forced into giving birth to out there. Not to mention all the issues related to pregnancy, how would you feel sending 9 months of your life carrying your rapists child around in your womb, knowing it was never going to be around you once it was born? putting your body through that then recovering from the birth and all because some guy raped you. nobody has the right to tell a woman she should endure that.

Your comment would suggest that all rape victims who become pregnant opt for abortion. This is not true. I personally know of one woman who became pregnant through rape and gave the child up for adoption. Your comment suggests that adoption should not even be considered

krudler · 06-09-2012 10:29AM

blacklilly wrote: »

Your comment would suggest that all rape victims who become pregnant opt for abortion. This is not true. I personally know of one woman who became pregnant through rape and gave the child up for adoption. Your comment suggests that adoption should not even be considered

As was her choice, thanks for backing up my point. The option is there, but its not up to anyone but the woman to decide which one to take.

Morag · 06-09-2012 10:37AM

Executive Steve wrote: »

Would have thought Boards.ie would have had ways of shutting threads like this down

I've never so many YD sock puppets on the site before, guess it's one way to know it's really mainstream.

Morag · 06-09-2012 10:40AM

krudler wrote: »

So a woman should raise a living, breathing reminder of a horrific event in her past she wanted no part of, changing her life because of the will of someone else? that seems like a better option to you than her possibly having a child when she wants with someone who is a partner? ok then..

and then her rapist can drag her through the courts and insist on trying to be in the child's life and by proxy hers.

Millicent · 06-09-2012 10:45AM

Gurgle wrote: »

With proper support and counseling, she should feel like a hero.

A hero? Why? Because she was a victim of a crime? Because she was raped and guilted into keeping a child she might have otherwise aborted? What utter twaddle. Rape doesn't make anyone a hero. It makes them victims of a serious crime with all the incumbent stresses and difficulties that come with such a crime.

Ash.J.Williams · 06-09-2012 10:47AM

tomtherobot wrote: »

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of extremist types but this morning, i found the country's favorite moral crusader aka Ray D'arcy, preaching on about the rights of women who've had abortions. This led me to the conclusion that there's a general consensus these days that abortion is now acceptable to the majority (ok not just this alone), but if this is the case, i think it raises two issues going forward (as they say)

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Secondly, the Ray D'arcy show this morning was talking about counseling for women after abortion. Seemingly the HSE already pays for this. I can't understand how state support for counseling for women who've had abortions is justified. On one side of the debate, pro abortionists say it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling? On the other side, anti-abortionists say it's murder, so why would the state be counseling murderers? Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one? Given that i believe that an unborn child is alive I think killing one is wrong and cannot be justified above the social or material needs of the parent(s). No more or less than i think it would be ok to kill your elderly parents just because they don't suit where you are in you're life right now.....

bit of a smarmy smug post to be honest

Sin City · 06-09-2012 11:09AM

Not going to get too involved in this thread , as I have contributed to a very similar thread on this site and the debate goes on and on (and there seems to be a lot of cranks and people trying to point blame and not make rational arguements against each other)

Bottom line is when you think humanity or personhood begins

Before or after birth

Until this is established the bickering and debate mudslinging will continue

RDM_83 again · 06-09-2012 12:32PM

Sharrow wrote: »

I've never so many YD sock puppets on the site before, guess it's one way to know it's really mainstream.

If your going to call people who disagree with you opinions members of YD, I'm calling you on your incorrect statement earlier in the thread

Sharrow wrote: »

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/flu/A-Z/E/Ectopic-pregnancy/Treating-ectopic-pregnancy.html

The ending of a pregnancy by medical intervention is an abortion.
Indeed it is the very definition of abortion.

You never refuted my point (backed up by a peer reviewed paper*), so I'l go out on a limb and say you also misrepresent thing to suit your idealogical background.

The same goes for Millicent who thanked all your previous posts yet in a previous thread completely misrepresented the actual statistics contained in a previous thread on the topic.

Millicent wrote: »

I'm sorry but where exactly are you getting your statistics from? Because without some decent evidence to back this up, I'm calling BS. One in 2 in Russia? The World Health Organisation disagrees with you. http://www.euro.who.int/en/what-we-do/health-topics/Life-stages/sexual-and-reproductive-health/activities/abortion/facts-and-figures-about-abortion-in-the-european-region If you're talking historically, when Russian women had no access to contraception, you would be more correct but at this period in history, you are wrong. ETA: More statistics showing the rate is still dropping. http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-russia.html

I'm not going to even get started on that one in five figure.

The evidence also flies in the face of all those who say women will use abortion as contraceptive. As the statistics prove, women on the whole are smart enough and sensible enough to take preventative measures against pregnancy, with countries with freely available contravention and quality education showing some of the lowest abortion rates worldwide.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Whats wrong with the one in five figure if your going to be dismissive at least back it up!, I can give links to why i think thats the figure in the UK (not peer reviewed studies and from slightly different years but these sort of demographics only change by 1 or 2% a year)

Figures for UK

708,708 live births in 2008
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/668801-uk-birth-rate-at-36-year-high

189,931 abortions in 2011
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18249026

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Honestly I get the feeling Millicent didn;t even read the figures in the links in her own own post.

In this link that she considers refutes the 1 in 2 figure for the Russian Federation

http://www.euro.who.int/en/what-we-do/health-topics/Life-stages/sexual-and-reproductive-health/activities/abortion/facts-and-figures-about-abortion-in-the-european-region

It states that the ratio is "According to HFA-DB, in 2006 the abortion ratio was 95 per 100 live births in the Russian Federation" thats so close to 1 in 2 that its just being pedantic.

I'm bringing this up because to me its pretty offensive to label anybody that disagrees with your position as a member of a pretty unpleasant organization.

And btw I do agree the laws in Ireland need to changed and rationalised.

Dangerous Man · 06-09-2012 01:01PM

Sharrow wrote: »

I've never so many YD sock puppets on the site before, guess it's one way to know it's really mainstream.

Show some respect. If you can't discuss something without resorting to petty insults then go away.

Matt_Trakker · 06-09-2012 01:02PM

Actor wrote: »

Do you think those in a vegitative state should be "put down"?

Brain dead=dead.
Yes, I think that if people are brain dead then turn off the machines that are keeping them alive and harvest their organs for others.
This is usually what happens anyway in most cases anyway.

Abortion

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