Abortion

tomtherobot wrote: »

Ok so what is it then? Pro - abortionists say it's not a child? It's not a major organ? Sp what is it? Why the need for counseling if you have one removed/murdered?

We could explain but I have a feeling you still wouldn't get it Why does anyone need counselling? Its as different as the individual, everyone has their own reasons for wanting or needing it.

I don't know why you would begrudge anyone the support they need, we give all sorts of people counselling for "self inflicted" issues because we recognise the need for prevention. We have enough of a problem in this country as is with mental illness, depression, suicide etc. I think punishing someone for a decision you disagree with by taking away a support is insane, some of the most pro-life people I know fully support the work of the post abortion services.

tomtherobot wrote: »

By pro-choice i take it you mean pro-having an abortion choice and not pro-sex with children choice or pro-exterminate the disabled choice? Because calling something pro-choice on it's own just kinda makes it sound ok, we all love choice right?

I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

Why should the mother have to bring up the rapists child? Or suffer because of illness when it's easily preventable? Or even possibly die in childbirth?

And stop with the dismissive, 'I'm right you're wrong' tone, or you won't last long here.

tomtherobot wrote: »

My tone is flippant because i think abortion is killing. Killing happens all the time, it's horrible, it's wrong but it happens. I don't think abortion is any special type of killing to be given special treatment.

So do you want to punish women by denying them help they might badly need?

LizT wrote: »

Please don't be so pedantic. Pro choice is widely acknowledged and recognised as the term used for those in favour of a woman's right to choose to have an abortion. It's not about making abortion 'sound ok', it's the term used. Don't make it into an issue when it's not.

Actually I heard an interesting point on a radio show before. Who started calling it Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? Surely it should be called Pro-Abortion vs Anti-Abortion. Just call it as it is rather than glorifying either position.

tomtherobot wrote: »

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of nazi fembots or holy joe types but this morning, i found the country's favorite moral crusader aka Ray D'arcy, preaching on about the rights of women who've had abortions. This led me to the conclusion that there's a general consensus these days that abortion is now acceptable to the majority (ok not just this alone), but if this is the case, i think it raises two issues going forward (as they say)

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Secondly, the Ray D'arcy show this morning was talking about counseling for women after abortion. Seemingly the HSE already pays for this. I can't understand how state support for counseling for women who've had abortions is justified. On one side of the debate, pro abortionists say it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling? On the other side, anti-abortionists say it's murder, so why would the state be counseling murderers? Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one? Given that i believe that an unborn child is alive I think killing one is wrong and cannot be justified above the social or material needs of the parent(s). No more or less than i think it would be ok to kill your elderly parents just because they don't suit where you are in you're life right now.....

Firstly the whole maintenance issue, I know a couple of people who have been through abortions, both were couples who had been together for long time and had children already, they decided as a couple that it was the right decision for them for their own different reasons, I don't know someone who was asked to abort their child by their partner as he felt the child was the result of infidelity, she agreed and had the pregnancy not been gone too far that child would not be here today.

These are just personal stories but I am sure there are women out there who go and have abortions against their partners will but the same is also true vice versa. And in others a couple decides that it is what is best for them. Abortion is not something the vast majority of people enter into lightly is usually a last resort that is serving everyone, including the unborn child's best interests. Anyone who parents a child be they man/woman and whether the child is wanted or unwanted by them should at the very least contribute financially to their offspring, the above stories demonstrate that men in my experience atleast do have a say in their partners going or not going for abortions.

As has been mentioned people who donate organs get counselling. Counselling services should be available for everyone, even if you count people who have abortions as murders then would you deny someone who was in prison for manslaughter or even murder counselling services?

My personal belief is that it is a very difficult decision. I would require counselling if I ever went for an abortion because while I do not count a foetus which is not viable out the womb as a child, I count is as the chance at such and that would be the loss for me. The reason I am pro abortion is I believe that nobody should be forced to have a child that they do not want, not even so much so for the parent as the child itself, while many will of course love their children anyway some may be aware that they do not have what it takes to be a parent, in this situation it is just the child that suffers. I know a y that fosters children, they have 3 kids born to the same mother and each and every one of them was born addicted to heroin, one has to ask would they have been better off not being born, now they will spend their lives in foster care, having the listing effects of being brought into the world this way.

Some people just should not be parents and more importantly no child should have to suffer because of this.

Wompa1 wrote: »

Actually I heard an interesting point on a radio show before. Who started calling it Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? Surely it should be called Pro-Abortion vs Anti-Abortion. Just call it as it is rather than glorifying either position.

I would consider myself to be pro choice but not necessarily pro abortion. There's a difference.

Wompa1 wrote: »

Actually I heard an interesting point on a radio show before. Who started calling it Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? Surely it should be called Pro-Abortion vs Anti-Abortion. Just call it as it is rather than glorifying either position.

Pro-abortion basically means you are in favour of abortions (abortions for all! :pac:), whereas pro-choice means you are in favour of the woman having the choice of keeping the child or abortion. Anti-abortion is pretty much the same as pro-life.

tomtherobot wrote: »

The only justified killing I know of is self-defense?

What if the fetus' presense threatens the life of the mother? Do you give preference to the actual life [mother] or the potential life [fetus]?

tomtherobot wrote: »

Please explain to me what it is about abortion that is traumatic, if it's not killing? I'm sorry I can't see it? If you're pro-abortion surely you saying that a life isn't being destroyed.

Are some people here saying that abortion is killing, but it's justified. How so? The only justified killing I know of is self-defense? I don't see how that applies.

Well I would say that yes, it's killing, but in my opinion it's justified because I feel the rights of the woman who does not want to be pregnant outweigh the rights of the foetus to be born.

tomtherobot wrote: »

Just to clarify, I can see why abortion is traumatic.

Really?

If you kill somebody it will be traumatic.

Oh wait, you don't.

There's more than one reason to need counselling. For example, if some needed to have an abortion, but were stuck near someone claiming they were murderers and killing the innocent. That would be fairly traumatic. Not because of the abortion, but because of the judgement they've to wrongly suffer through.

There are many other reasons.

What I can't understand is why pro-abortionists, who say that it isn't killing, still say that counseling is required?

You can't understand, or you're refusing to accept?

tomtherobot wrote: »

Please explain to me what it is about abortion that is traumatic, if it's not killing? I'm sorry I can't see it? If you're pro-abortion surely you saying that a life isn't being destroyed.

Are some people here saying that abortion is killing, but it's justified. How so? The only justified killing I know of is self-defense? I don't see how that applies.

Skylinehead wrote: »

Pro-abortion basically means you are in favour of abortions (abortions for all! :pac:), whereas pro-choice means you are in favour of the woman having the choice of keeping the child or abortion. Anti-abortion is pretty much the same as pro-life.

But if I'm Pro Death Penalty. It doesn't mean I think everyone should get the death penalty. It's semantics and I never understood why.

If you are Pro allowing women to have an abortion no matter what the circumstances. Whether they have been raped, ill or just using it as a get out. Then I would say you are Pro Abortion.

Pro Choice makes it sound a lot less about the living being inside the ladies and more about themselves.

Any Gynies in the house to weigh in? All I know about the process is the foetus's I saw at the Bodies exhibition and what I've read or saw through my life. I have to say, the actual foetus I saw looked a lot like a living being