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So we dont have to pay back German Bondholders

  • 25-08-2012 03:34PM
    #1
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭


    .....anyone want to comment on this and how the ECB have threatened us and forced us to pay billions that we never had to pay...

    Colm McCarthy digs up the truth about the ECB,and Pat Rabbit finally admits to a few interesting things too.

    Ireland have a case to take against the ECB in the European Courts of Justice to get back the billions of euros we should never have paid in the 1st place.

    Makes for very interesting viewing.;)




    http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/52207/1/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne



    PS-I wonder will Kenny and Noonan now finally stand up to the ECB and Germany,or will they still suck up to them both.


«13456

Comments

  • #2
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    paddy147 wrote: »
    .....anyone want to comment on this and how the ECB have threatened us and forced us to pay billions that we never had to pay...

    Colm McCarthy digs up the truth about the ECB,and Pat Rabbit finally admits to a few interesting things too.

    Ireland have a case to take against the ECB in the European Courts of Justice to get back the billions of euros we should never have paid in the 1st place.

    Makes for very interesting viewing.;)


    http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/52207/1/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne

    We lost the bet, now we want our beaten docket back. We guaranteed bank loans when the EU didn't want us to do it. We thought we were smarter than them all. The bad news is: we weren't.


  • #3
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    liammur wrote: »
    We lost the bet, now we want our beaten docket back. We guaranteed bank loans when the EU didn't want us to do it. We thought we were smarter than them all. The bad news is: we weren't.


    Watch the link and listen to what is said and what is also admitted 1st.


  • #4
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    I think the reality here is we need / needed the goodwill of the 'Troika'.

    If we had written off everything how would the country have funded the 20 billion annual deficit? Because the 'Troika' wouldn't have been too eager to lend, nor would the 'markets'.

    I'm sure we could now argue that we should have done an Iceland on it but, we didn't at the time so we are where we are.

    Any write offs will be because we are thrown a few crumbs from the top table or because it is politically expedient for the ECB to change the policy for the benefit of larger / more important members.


  • #5
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    paddy147 wrote: »
    Watch the link and listen to what is said and what is also admitted 1st.

    I saw the program on TV. Talking crap he is. Front up and take responsibility.
    Yes, the ECB has been bullying us around, and bullying Greece. But can you really blame them ?


  • #6
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    liammur wrote: »
    I saw the program on TV. Talking crap he is. Front up and take responsibility.
    Yes, the ECB has been bullying us around, and bullying Greece. But can you really blame them ?


    So what about Pat Rabbits admissions??

    Yes,I do blame the ECB,they had no authority to do so in the 1st place.

    Thats why we not have a legal case against them in the European Courts of Justice.


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  • #7
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    liammur wrote: »
    We lost the bet, now we want our beaten docket back. We guaranteed bank loans when the EU didn't want us to do it. We thought we were smarter than them all. The bad news is: we weren't.
    In fairness, it's really time we were rid of repetitive, clichéd references to beaten dockets, and other such inappropriate metaphors for the Irish banking and sovereign crises.

    I think it's something that the Cabinet should explore. But what struck me as most peculiar during that interview was that Rabbitte seemed to suggest that the communication from the ECB in question has never been discussed at Cabinet, despite receiving significant attention in the media, and he appeared completely unaware of it:confused:


  • #8
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    later12 wrote: »
    In fairness, it's really time we were rid of repetitive, clichéd references to beaten dockets, and other such inappropriate metaphors for the Irish banking and sovereign crises.

    I think it's something that the Cabinet should explore. But what struck me as most peculiar during that interview was that Rabbitte seemed to suggest that the communication from the ECB in question has never been discussed at Cabinet, despite receiving significant attention in the media, and he appeared completely unaware of it:confused:

    I'm sure you'd find support for this in Greece & Spain as well.


  • #9
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    In fairness to Mr Rabbit..hes the only one that seems to talk with any respect on VB.
    Any other FG just waffles on and on and trys to avoid the questions.

    Mr Rabbit at least did seem to be genuine


  • #10
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    paddy147 wrote: »
    So what about Pat Rabbits admissions??

    Yes,I do blame the ECB,they had no authority to do so in the 1st place.

    Thats why we not have a legal case against them in the European Courts of Justice.

    I don't rate C McCarthy. We went on a solo run in 08, now we're paying the price for that.


  • #11
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    We have a case against the ECB so we should be in Court against them ASAP.

    This is OUR money thats being handed over and we were forced to hand it over.

    Its about fcuking time that this country finally stood up to the ECB and Germany too.


    No more of this "how high should we jump" attitude from Kenny and Noonan.

    Grow a set of balls,get tough and stick it to the ECB and Germany.


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  • #12
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    liammur wrote: »
    I don't rate C McCarthy. We went on a solo run in 08, now we're paying the price for that.


    And what about Pat Rabbits admissions then (seen as he is a front bench minister)???


  • #13
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    paddy147 wrote: »
    We have a case against the ECB so we should be in Court against them ASAP.

    This is OUR money thats being handed over and we were forced to hand it over.

    Its about fcuking time that this country finally stood up to the ECB and Germany too.


    No more of this "how high should we jump" attitude from Kenny and Noonan.

    Grow a set of balls,get tough and stick it to the ECB and Germany.

    That's a bit like a man saying 'go on, throw the rock at my house'...and his house consists of nothing but glass.


  • #14
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    I see you are avoiding Pat Rabbits admissions...why??


  • #15
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    liammur wrote: »
    That's a bit like a man saying 'go on, throw the rock at my house'...and his house consists of nothing but glass.


    Eh no,its more like being upfront and very blunt with the ECB and Germans.

    Kenny,Noonan and Gilmore can be blunt and upfront with us Irish people and force us to pay this that and the other charge and tax,,but somehow none of them have the balls to be upfront and blunt with the ECB or the Germans on this very serious matter.


  • #16
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    paddy147 wrote: »
    I see you are avoiding Pat Rabbits admissions...why??

    Even though I rate him as 1 of our better politicians, unfortunately, he's woefully out of his depth.


  • #17
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    liammur wrote: »
    Even though I rate him as 1 of our better politicians, unfortunately, he's woefully out of his depth.


    Sure the whole FG front bench are then too...when it comes to the ECB and Germany.


    Its like they all suddenly have "selective memories" and then suddenly develop "stagefright".:rolleyes:


  • #18
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    paddy147 wrote: »
    Sure the whole FG front bench are then too...when it comes to the ECB and Germany.


    Its like they all suddenly develop "stagefright".:rolleyes:

    I don't rate them at all.

    But they have little choice. I know the guy on 4fm phone reckons enda should be bullying merkel and the IMF/ECB. Anyone you hear saying this is clueless.


  • #19
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    German Bondholders were/are gamblers.

    If you gamble and you lose...you LOSE,you DONT WIN.

    WE have no legal obligation to pay any money out to the Germans,even the IMF agrees on that.Its now been proven that the ECB stepped out of its authority and forced us to pay up...(take 1 for the team).

    Ireland now has a case against the ECB and paying German bondholders.

    Kenny is handing over my money,your money and every other tax payers money too.


    We as the public are Kennys boss,so he and Noonan should be fighting and demanding to get our money back.

    But he and Noonan just keeping on saying to the ECB and Merkil in particular..."How high should we jump Angela"???


  • #20
    dunphy3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭dunphy3


    paddy147 wrote: »
    German Bondholders were/are gamblers.

    If you gamble and you lose...you LOSE,you DONT WIN.

    WE have no legal obligation to pay any money out to the Germans,even the IMF agrees on that.Its now been proven that the ECB stepped out of its authority and forced us to pay up...(take 1 for the team).

    Ireland now has a case against the ECB and paying German bondholders.

    Kenny is handing over my money,your money and every other tax payers money too.


    We as the public are Kennys boss,so he and Noonan should be fighting and demanding to get our money back.

    But he and Noonan just keeping on saying to the ECB and Merkil in particular..."How high should we jump Angela"???
    call me a idiot but at least i recoganise that the politicans will do noting,????


  • #21
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    paddy147 wrote: »
    German Bondholders were/are gamblers.

    If you gamble and you lose...you LOSE,you DONT WIN.

    WE have no legal obligation to pay any money out to the Germans,even the IMF agrees on that.Its now been proven that the ECB stepped out of its authority and forced us to pay up...(take 1 for the team).

    Ireland now has a case against the ECB and paying German bondholders.

    Kenny is handing over my money,your money and every other tax payers money too.


    We as the public are Kennys boss,so he and Noonan should be fighting and demanding to get our money back.

    But he and Noonan just keeping on saying to the ECB and Merkil in particular..."How high should we jump Angela"???

    Not necessarily. We want it both ways, I agree those bondholders should have lost, but then the banks must have been allowed to go bust.


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  • #22
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    liammur wrote: »
    We lost the bet, now we want our beaten docket back. We guaranteed bank loans when the EU didn't want us to do it. We thought we were smarter than them all. The bad news is: we weren't.

    Cowan lost the bet for us. Read this and just think this was the man making the decisions. Getting that plastered midweek and trying to run a county.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/brian-cowen-galway-drinking-hangover-morning-ireland-570735-Aug2012/?utm_source=twitter_self


  • #23
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Which German bondholders exactly are you talking about?


  • #24
    Good loser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,273 ✭✭✭Good loser


    paddy147 wrote: »
    German Bondholders were/are gamblers.

    If you gamble and you lose...you LOSE,you DONT WIN.

    WE have no legal obligation to pay any money out to the Germans,even the IMF agrees on that.Its now been proven that the ECB stepped out of its authority and forced us to pay up...(take 1 for the team).

    Ireland now has a case against the ECB and paying German bondholders.

    Kenny is handing over my money,your money and every other tax payers money too.


    We as the public are Kennys boss,so he and Noonan should be fighting and demanding to get our money back.

    But he and Noonan just keeping on saying to the ECB and Merkil in particular..."How high should we jump Angela"???

    paddy 147 I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

    Colm Mac writes an article in the Sunday Indo, and talks for 20 mins on the VB show, and you think we have the basis for a court action against the ECB to claim €10bn, €20bn or €30 bn from them!!

    In the first instance shouldn't the money be claimed back from the people 'we' paid it to? i.e. the bondholders. And who are they as hmmm asks? What if they have distributed this money to their pensioners? Should we then pursue these pensioners?

    In the second instance it was the banks that paid the bondholders - not you or me or us.

    In the third instance the repayments are over - all the money (virtually) is already gone.

    Noonan, Kenny can do as they do in this country because they have POWER. Merkel has the power in Germany and because Germany is the paymaster of the ECB she has power there too. You cannot wield power unless you have it - that is the meaning of the word.

    To persuade Merkel we would have to persuade the German people. How do you suggest we do that? Send over Fintan O Toole? Or Pearse Doherty?


  • #25
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    Good loser wrote: »
    paddy 147 I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

    Colm Mac writes an article in the Sunday Indo, and talks for 20 mins on the VB show, and you think we have the basis for a court action against the ECB to claim €10bn, €20bn or €30 bn from them!!

    In the first instance shouldn't the money be claimed back from the people 'we' paid it to? i.e. the bondholders. And who are they as hmmm asks? What if they have distributed this money to their pensioners? Should we then pursue these pensioners?

    In the second instance it was the banks that paid the bondholders - not you or me or us.

    In the third instance the repayments are over - all the money (virtually) is already gone.

    Noonan, Kenny can do as they do in this country because they have POWER. Merkel has the power in Germany and because Germany is the paymaster of the ECB she has power there too. You cannot wield power unless you have it - that is the meaning of the word.

    To persuade Merkel we would have to persuade the German people. How do you suggest we do that? Send over Fintan O Toole? Or Pearse Doherty?

    Loser some of what you say is right however there are still 20 Billion in bonds to be paid so half a loaf is better than no bread. Also what have we to lose if we go to the European Court and win it is the ECB not Merkel that will be directly paying us. And I know that merkel has to pay in the end.

    This has nothing with German public opinion how often is there public outrage over a court ruling. Nobody is saying we will win however some think we have a sound legal basis to take a case.

    The European Comission has used it against us at time are we not entitled to use it, no we are supposed to sit on Angela knee like a lapdog taking whatever scraps she deems to give us.

    Some posters make the point that we gauranteed the bonds yes we did for two years and that guarantee was coming to an end and we would have been under no obligation to pay any more after Sept 2010 instead we were bounced into a deal that has cost this country and its population a lot of money.

    There is an old saying ''nice guys finish last''. We are continually the nice guys we need politicians to stand up for there country what is happening to us is an economic war and we have to use any and every means at our disposal to put legal and moral pressure on the ECB, EMF, European Comission and Germany to give us a break. Also even the IMF did not want us to honour all bonds.


  • #26
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    Good loser wrote: »
    paddy 147 I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

    Colm Mac writes an article in the Sunday Indo, and talks for 20 mins on the VB show, and you think we have the basis for a court action against the ECB to claim €10bn, €20bn or €30 bn from them!!

    In the first instance shouldn't the money be claimed back from the people 'we' paid it to? i.e. the bondholders. And who are they as hmmm asks? What if they have distributed this money to their pensioners? Should we then pursue these pensioners?

    In the second instance it was the banks that paid the bondholders - not you or me or us.

    In the third instance the repayments are over - all the money (virtually) is already gone.

    Noonan, Kenny can do as they do in this country because they have POWER. Merkel has the power in Germany and because Germany is the paymaster of the ECB she has power there too. You cannot wield power unless you have it - that is the meaning of the word.

    To persuade Merkel we would have to persuade the German people. How do you suggest we do that? Send over Fintan O Toole? Or Pearse Doherty?


    You want to know what to do and how we persuade Germany???

    here you go.....

    Angela Merkil...Give us the money Mr Kenny and Ireland


    Enda Kenny... Eh NO Angela,you got more than enough off of us,so go and feck off now.In fact you OWE US back alot of money,so hand it over NOW.If you dont,then we will see you in Court.



    Simples.:D


    PS-Its called having a SPINE,and a SET OF BALLS too.


  • #27
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    if we go to the European Court ...
    Take who to the ECJ and for what?


  • #28
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Take who to the ECJ and for what?


    Because the ECB has breached/acted out of its authority with regards what we had to pay back and when too.We were forced to pay,when we never should have had to pay the bondholders.

    Look at the VB link and programme,and also listen to what Pat Rabbit says/admits.

    Its about time that Irish got/get tough with the ECB and the German bondholders.


  • #29
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    paddy147 wrote: »
    Because the ECB has breached/acted out of its authority with regards what we had to pay back and when too.We were forced to pay,when we never should have had to pay the bondholders.
    That's not what I asked.

    Who
    Why


    If your answer is sue the ECB because they acted ultra vires their powers, you have to establish that they have a set parameter of powers outside of which they acted. Failing that you would need to establish a contractual nexus between Ireland and the ECB or seek a remedy in tort - neither of which I believe you will find sufficiently to bring legal action in this regard against the ECB.

    In fact, anyone calling for legal action against the ECB is being wholly disingenuous and populist. There is provision in the treaties for a MS to sue the ECB, but you must have a case against them. In the present circumstances Ireland voluntarily initiated the bailout - the only legal action would be that the ECB threatened to withdraw liquidity support (which it didn't, in fact do) outside of its powers; Ireland would have to show that this "forced" them to initiate the bailout. You'd be hard pressed to prove that to a court especially because you'd have to establish a causal relationship between all of the events and show that the actions of the ECB were the sole reason to bail out - our politicians would never do this, way too much dirty laundry would be aired..
    Look at the VB link and programme,and also listen to what Pat Rabbit says/admits.
    I have little to no interest in armchair lawyers spouting on about suing people when they seem to not understand that you must prove a wrong in court. You can't just walk in and sue whoever you want without a breach of some sort. There is simply no visible case against the ECB.
    Its about time that Irish got/get tough with the ECB and the German bondholders.
    This nonsense is getting old tbh. It's time the Irish government grew up and were replaced by competent people like the ECB and the Germans.


  • #30
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    Pat Rabbit is a "front bench goverment minsister" who admitted a fair few things on the VB show.

    Ireland DO have a case against the ECB in the Europen Courts of Justice..thats a fact.



    Im gald you think that its getting old..when alot of people have now been proved right....with regards not having to pay the german bondholders.

    I have given you facts and shown you a link (wonder did you even watch the VB show???)...and you seem to be in total denial of anything relating to the ECB and bondholders fleecing us out of our money.

    By we all know what Kenny and Noonan will do...they will act all tough on the Irish People...but they wont even make a whimper to the ECB and Germany.

    Fcuking typical FG then.


    PS-20 odd billion euro back in our pockets couldnt and wouldnt do anything for the "irish domestic economy"...NO????

    EH YES IT WOULD.


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  • #31
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    paddy147 wrote: »
    Pat Rabbit is a "front bench goverment minsister" who admitted a fair dew things on the VB show.
    Pat Rabbitte is a career politician who is responsible for spin communications. I don't know what he admitted to whom, but I cannot see any solid legal basis for suing the ECB.

    As I said, regardless of what he admitted, there are wider implications of the truth behind the bailout being revealed if this went to court. There are too many politicians that protected their friends and family when the bailout was done. They will not want that on the public record.

    Ireland DO have a case against the ECB in the Europen Courts of Justice..thats a fact.
    FOR WHAT? It's not a fact just because you say it is. Legally, what is the case against the ECB?

    Im gald you think that its getting old..when alot of people have now been proved right....with regards not paying the german bondholders.
    I'm sorry? I see no vindication for anyone here to be honest. It's all a bit too little too late.
    I have given you facts and shown you a link (wonder did you even watch the VB show???)...and you seem to be in total denial of anything relating to the ECB and bondholders fleecing us out of our money.
    You have given absolutely zero facts actually. The link is unsubstantiated opinion and I don't really care to watch the VB show.
    By we all know what Kenny and Noonan will do...they will act all tough on the Irish People...but they wont even make a whimper to the ECB and Germany.

    Fcuking typical FG then.
    The big, bad Germany stuff is also getting really old.


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