Lance armstrong drops fight against doping charges

martingriff · 24-08-2012 09:22AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

They're based up in Tallaght aren't they?

Damn spelling my arch nemises

BarnhallBull · 24-08-2012 09:24AM

martingriff wrote: »

Damn spelling my arch nemises

What's his name? I'll spell it for you

kneemos · 24-08-2012 09:26AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

look, I say make it fair - put them all on drugs - then watch them compete - it would be a lot more entertaining and they would all be on the level playing field.

Kinda the way it is apparently.

martingriff · 24-08-2012 09:27AM

BarnhallBull wrote: »

What's his name? I'll spell it for you

Wibbs · 24-08-2012 09:30AM

martingriff wrote: »

Have the American the authority to strip him of all titles and ban worldwide or does this now go to the international anti doping do it.

I don;t think so. That'll be up to the UCI AFAIK. That's where it's gonna be interesting as they always backed him. Armstrong is playing the odds here. He damn well knows he'll lose the case, but by pulling out like this with the usual whinge of sainthood he'll leave enough doubt. The UCI are gonna be interesting in how they react. The sport in a few areas has been bent as a threepenny bit for a while.

Fuinseog wrote: »

were the accusations sour grapes? he was one of the most tested athletes in the world and they never found anything yet the accusations still persisted. why?

Because when you see a cyclist with his build consistently hammer and I mean hammer specialists in areas where he shouldn't be near the front, never mind breaking away questions are gonna be asked.

Chips Lovell · 24-08-2012 09:30AM

There's a couple of long running threads over at the Cycling forum about Armstrong for anyone who's interested in having a nose around and learning more.

To answer a few questions that are cropping up here:

Q: How come he never failed a drugs test?
A. Drug testing has struggled to keep up with with doping. For example, it was only 2000 that a test for EPO was introduced. Most of the top riders then switched to blood transfusions, which mimics the effects of EPO. To date, there's no way of testing for people transfusing their own blood. What the sport has been forced to do in recent years is regularly test riders' blood and check for abnormal fluctuations. These days you can be banned for having a blood composition deemed unnatural, but in Armstrong's Tour winning years, that wasn't in force yet.

Q: Is the evidence against him going to be published?
A: Yes, once all the other people involved in the case have had their hearings. Armstrong opted not to contest, others did.

Q: Aren't they all on drugs and, if they are, doesn't it create a level playing field?
A: Even at the height of the doping years, in the 90s and early 00s, there was still people riding clean. Even if everyone doped, it didn't create a level playing field. Some people respond better to doping than others. Also some people were prepared to take more risks with their health than others. The doping culture rewarded the lunatics who were prepared to turn their blood into soup and risk dying in their sleep.

Q: Cycling is still riddled with drugs though?
A: It's actually improved immensely in recent years. With riders having their blood monitored regularly its become increasingly difficult to get away with it. This is evidenced by the fact that riders who're widely regarded to be clean beginning to win major races. The peloton has also gotten slower in recent years, with sport scientists calculating that the top contenders power outputs are now within the bounds of what's regarded as humanly possible.

fishy fishy · 24-08-2012 09:35AM

BarnhallBull wrote: »

What's your point? Like I said, if the accusations against me and my reputation were false, then I'd keep fighting to clear my name, no matter how many years it took. Wouldn't you?

just to give the "other option" an airing - maybe he just said that after 13 years of his life being tormented and trying to defend himself, he has taken a decision to cut it out of his life and to get on with living. Personally I know if I had something hanging over me like this for 13 years I would seriously think about what damage mentally it could do to me if it went on indefinitely. Maybe he had a good think and just said that he can HAVE a bit of a life without torment if he lets it go - maybe he just can't deal with it anymore and maybe his life might mean more to him now than a few medals.

You do, after all, only get one life - maybe he wants to live the rest of it stress free.

At the end of the day - only he and whoever tested him knows if he is guilty of drug taking or not - any one else's opinion is just heresay.

Wibbs · 24-08-2012 09:40AM

V_Moth wrote: »

Except we don't really have an idea about the long-term effects of using those substances. Look at roid rage for example.

Well the roid rage thang can be exaggerated a fair bit. Drugs like EPO that boost red blood cell production can cause problems pretty quickly. Their blood can be come to thick. Blood doping is similar. Allied to a their superhuman fitness and low resting heart rates this can cause life threatening problems. They take aspirin as one way to lessen the risk. Some teams were necking aspirin like tic tacs. Hmmm. Plus EPO causes low level headaches.

Human growth hormone can give real boosts in performance, hard to trace too. The jury's still out on the long term effects but increased risk of certain cancers may be one.

Testosterone again can give boosts in performance and so long as they keep it under certain levels in competition hard to trace, but again long term effects are up in the air.

How do they beat the tests? A couple of ways. Out of competition they can(or used to be able to) go pretty much nuts as they're not being tested. Leave enough of a gap to clear the markers and you'll look "clean" in competition. Other ways include masking agents that they're not testing for yet. Some yahoos have even catheterised themselves and flushed their bladder with clean urine. Blood doping is about the hardest to test for. They're injecting the red cell concentrate of their own blood. How do you spot that? "Here you've high levels of red blood cells WTF?" "Oh yea I've been training at altitude so eff off" kinda thing. Of course there are likely drugs and techniques so far undiscovered that they're simply not testing for. It's relatively easy to do and plenty of ex pros have come out and detailed how they did it.

hardCopy · 24-08-2012 09:43AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

At the end of the day - only he and whoever tested him knows if he is guilty of drug taking or not - any one else's opinion is just heresay.

And the team-mate who he gave testosterone patches to, and the physio who gave him her make-up to cover needle marks and the lab who found EPO in his old blood samples.

But I guess we'll never really know...

BarnhallBull · 24-08-2012 09:44AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

just to give the "other option" an airing - maybe he just said that after 13 years of his life being tormented and trying to defend himself, he has taken a decision to cut it out of his life and to get on with living. Personally I know if I had something hanging over me like this for 13 years I would seriously think about what damage mentally it could do to me if it went on indefinitely. Maybe he had a good think and just said that he can HAVE a bit of a life without torment if he lets it go - maybe he just can't deal with it anymore and maybe his life might mean more to him now than a few medals.

You do, after all, only get one life - maybe he wants to live the rest of it stress free.

At the end of the day - only he and whoever tested him knows if he is guilty of drug taking or not - any one else's opinion is just heresay.

The man has 5 young children, there's no way I would allow people falsely accuse me of cheating if I was innocent, that would, in my opinion, be an awful example to set for my children.

As for him and the testers being the only ones who know the truth, not if he sat and doped with the rest of his team, which his teammates are all claiming he did.

B0jangles · 24-08-2012 09:44AM

I can see the tabloid headline now:

"Lance Armstrong: Drug Pedlar"

summerskin · 24-08-2012 09:47AM

The man is a cheat, as many of us have insisted for years. His performance was impossible, he did not have build to beat the mountain specialists, but somehow managed to.

I'm delighted he's been caught.

Ronin247 · 24-08-2012 09:53AM

Wibbs wrote: »

..............................................

It's not just cycling either. Not by a long shot. It just had the beady eye on it because it was sooooo obvious. IMHO there are bugger all in athletics that are clean and near zero among the consistent winners.

pc7 wrote: »

................................................Some ways comparable if Usain Bolt was found guilty of doping, 2 billion people watched him claim gold a few weeks back, I know if it came out he was a cheat I'd feel fairly hard done by.

Tetrahydrogestrinone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrogestrinone Was a drug developed by the Americans which was undetectable and was known by its street name "The Clear" because when tested the results came back Clear.

Ben Johnson took part in "The Dirtiest Race In History" with most of the participants having since been implicated in some doping controversey or other.Johnson has said that he was on steroids for seven years and the only reason he was done for doping was that his sample was tampered with,this leaves the question "how could he have been tested so many times and never came up positive?"

I fear that all top athletes are at it.

fishy fishy · 24-08-2012 09:55AM

hardCopy wrote: »

And the team-mate who he gave testosterone patches to, and the physio who gave him her make-up to cover needle marks and the lab who found EPO in his old blood samples.

But I guess we'll never really know...

no we won't - unless we were standing right beside those people when they performed those actions. I;m sure his kids will be delighted that he can break free from 13 years of torment and live his life.

whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.

fishy fishy · 24-08-2012 09:56AM

BarnhallBull wrote: »

The man has 5 young children, there's no way I would allow people falsely accuse me of cheating if I was innocent, that would, in my opinion, be an awful example to set for my children.

As for him and the testers being the only ones who know the truth, not if he sat and doped with the rest of his team, which his teammates are all claiming he did.

maybe he would prefer to spend time with his children and have a life with him.

It's all very well saying "oh I would never do that" but y'know at the end of the day, you don't know what you would do, until you are in that position.

This bandwagoning always makes me laugh.

kfallon · 24-08-2012 09:59AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

maybe he would prefer to spend time with his children and have a life with him.

It's all very well saying "oh I would never do that" but y'know at the end of the day, you don't know what you would do, until you are in that position.

This bandwagoning always makes me laugh.

Ditto for your posts

hardCopy · 24-08-2012 10:07AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

no we won't - unless we were standing right beside those people when they performed those actions. I;m sure his kids will be delighted that he can break free from 13 years of torment and live his life.

whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.

He's been proven guilty by the US Anti Doping Agency, the body charged with preventing drug use in US sport, whose jurisdiction he signed up to as a UCI licensed racer.

The fact that such a determined and aggressive individual won't even try to defend himself speaks volumes.

ronan45 · 24-08-2012 10:09AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

look, I say make it fair - put them all on drugs - then watch them compete - it would be a lot more entertaining and they would all be on the level playing field.

Spose you could have the "Alternative Olympics" Could actually make for some excellent viewing

ronan45 · 24-08-2012 10:11AM

Wibbs wrote: »

I don;t think so. That'll be up to the UCI AFAIK. That's where it's gonna be interesting as they always backed him. Armstrong is playing the odds here. He damn well knows he'll lose the case, but by pulling out like this with the usual whinge of sainthood he'll leave enough doubt. The UCI are gonna be interesting in how they react. The sport in a few areas has been bent as a threepenny bit for a while.

Because when you see a cyclist with his build consistently hammer and I mean hammer specialists in areas where he shouldn't be near the front, never mind breaking away questions are gonna be asked.

Whats a cinema in Coolock got to do with this:P

fishy fishy · 24-08-2012 10:27AM

hardCopy wrote: »

He's been proven guilty by the US Anti Doping Agency, the body charged with preventing drug use in US sport, whose jurisdiction he signed up to as a UCI licensed racer.

The fact that such a determined and aggressive individual won't even try to defend himself speaks volumes.

it's not that simple - this has been going on for well over a decade. As I say, nobody knows except himself and the person testing him.

buck65 · 24-08-2012 10:29AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

maybe he would prefer to spend time with his children and have a life with him.

It's all very well saying "oh I would never do that" but y'know at the end of the day, you don't know what you would do, until you are in that position.

This bandwagoning always makes me laugh.

Bandwaggoning?

For years people with half a clue about sport knew that Armstrong was dirty. I even wrote a letter to Michael Moynihan in the Examiner criticising his glowing Armstrong tribute when he competed here a few years back.
Just because you happened on this thread today doesn't mean the comments on here are coming from people who are on a bandwaggon.
It is posts like yours that lets the Armstrongs of the world get away with it.

VictorRomeo · 24-08-2012 10:31AM

ronan45 wrote: »

Spose you could have the "Alternative Olympics" Could actually make for some excellent viewing

I would pay good money to watch that sort of thing.... See some guy doped to the gills run the 100m in under 8 seconds.... then watch his heart explode.... Something like Death Race.... with WWE style production values.... It would be awesome....

hardCopy · 24-08-2012 10:33AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

it's not that simple - this has been going on for well over a decade. As I say, nobody knows except himself and the person testing him.

You're way off the mark here.

I'm quite aware that it's been going on a long time, he's been known as a doper for a long time too.

Lance Armstrong is a drug cheat and the world knows it, now it's proven.

SocSocPol · 24-08-2012 10:35AM

To use an old expression "They dogs in the street" have known for years that Armstrong is a cheat.The govering body for cycling also have a lot to answer for.Cycling should be dropped from the Olympics and from all Sports Council funding until the Governing Body PROVES that they have taken real steps to end the culture of cheating that is endemic in this once proud sport.

fishy fishy · 24-08-2012 10:37AM

hardCopy wrote: »

You're way off the mark here.

I'm quite aware that it's been going on a long time, he's been known as a doper for a long time too.

Lance Armstrong is a drug cheat and the world knows it, now it's proven.

its not actually - its only assumed that "its proven" because he made a decision about HIS life that the public don't agree with .

I'm not saying whether he is a drug cheat or not - because nobody knows - you are only working from what you are fed. you can ASSUME but you cannot know for sure.

thats all I'm saying on the matter - came to give an alternative view and I did - obviously the masses don't like it tho.

but it might give people something to think about.

buck65 · 24-08-2012 10:38AM

The only thing your comments make me think about is how gullible some people are.

fishy fishy · 24-08-2012 10:40AM

buck65 wrote: »

The only thing your comments make me think about is how gullible some people are.

vice versa

and whats even funnier, is that "the dogs on the street" knew he was a cheat, then why even watch? now that
could be termed as gullible.

Jerrica · 24-08-2012 10:43AM

V_Moth wrote: »

Except we don't really have an idea about the long-term effects of using those substances. Look at roid rage for example.

Roid rage is still very much unproven. A guy who's an asshole on gear is most likely an asshole off it. Nice guys will not turn into monsters overnight. There's a whole heap of socio economic and mental health factors at play too.

SocSocPol wrote: »

To use an old expression "They dogs in the street" have known for years that Armstrong is a cheat.The govering body for cycling also have a lot to answer for.Cycling should be dropped from the Olympics and from all Sports Council funding until the Governing Body PROVES that they have taken real steps to end the culture of cheating that is endemic in this once proud sport.

What steps though? Many sports in the Olympics are very dirty, but the steps that can be taken to eliminate drugs/ doping are limited. Sports enhancement drugs are way ahead of the testing standards, in some sports it (literally) pays to be the best so the risk: benefit ratio far outweighs the negatives of being caught. As long as the incentives to be the best are so much greater than the penalty for getting caught, and the resources available to the Governing Bodies for testing are so limited the athletes who dope will have it (relatively) easy.

GerM · 24-08-2012 10:45AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

it's not that simple - this has been going on for well over a decade. As I say, nobody knows except himself and the person testing him.

And the multiple people who were involved with his career and saw him doing this and/or facilitated his actions. For example, the masseuse who, as discussed on radio this morning, gave a 7 hour interview detailing specific incidents and examples of Armstrong doping right down to purchasing concealer to hide tell tale marks on his skin.

hardCopy · 24-08-2012 10:54AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

its not actually - its only assumed that "its proven" because he made a decision about HIS life that the public don't agree with .

I'm not saying whether he is a drug cheat or not - because nobody knows - you are only working from what you are fed. you can ASSUME but you cannot know for sure.

thats all I'm saying on the matter - came to give an alternative view and I did - obviously the masses don't like it tho. but it might give people something to think about.

And you're entitled to your view.

You're wrong though.

Lance armstrong drops fight against doping charges

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