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'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong

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    #32
    The tax man
    Registered Users Posts: 4,557 ✭✭✭The tax man


    No
    Enjoyed this tweet this morning,

    This is the end
    Beautiful friend
    This is the end
    My only friend, the end
    Of our elaborate plans, the end
    Of everything that stands, the end...

    The end? It's only just started.:pac:


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    #33
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    No
    This isn't the end of it. Armstrong appears to have decided that he's on a hiding to nothing with USADA and wants to shift hearings into the courts or to the UCI or CAS. He failed on the jurisidiction front, but now it appears he'll challenge USADA's authority to impose a sanction:
    "USADA has no authority to proceed in this matter for all of the reasons we have set out in our previous pleadings, correspondence and my presentation in Federal Court. After Mr. Armstrong filed his federal court action, UCI, the international federation for cycling, and USA Cycling, the national governing body for cycling in the United States, both confirmed that UCI, not USADA, has the exclusive authority and jurisdiction in this matter," attorneys Tim Herman and Robert Luskin wrote.

    They stated that USADA cannot move forward with any punishment until the UCI's independent review panel sees the collected dossier of evidence against Armstrong and settles the dispute regarding its jurisdiction in the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

    "At an absolute minimum, UCI and USADA should go to CAS to resolve the jurisdiction issue before any proceedings begin, a solution offered by UCI but rejected by USADA."

    They stated that Armstrong would "respect the decision of UCI with every confidence that his position should and will be vindicated through independent review by authorities with lawful jurisdiction over this matter."

    In fact, the attorneys threatened to USADA if it "makes any public statement claiming, without jurisdiction, to sanction Mr. Armstrong, or to falsely characterize Mr. Armstrong's reasons for not requesting an arbitration as anything other than a recognition of UCI jurisdiction and authority, USADA and anyone involved in the making of the statement will be liable."


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    #34
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    No
    average_runner wrote: »
    So every year he won the tour de france he failed a drug test?
    I didn't say that - he's a proven doper, and that's good enough for me


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    #35
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,359 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    No
    average_runner wrote: »
    So every year he won the tour de france he failed a drug test?

    Not failing a drug test does not mean the rider is clean.
    Riis won the 1996 Tour without failing a test.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #36
    quagmired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭quagmired


    Yes, but he's still great
    kimmage will be trilled. He might flog a few more books and recruit some more readers to his bile. He was always much better at writing sensationalist tripe with a very very loose connection to reality than he was at cycling (average? No mate, you were rubbish).
    Truth is we'll never know. There is zero evidence. Which makes me laugh so much at all the smug idiots who tell you 'oh I knew all along'. They're just attention craving losers who want to be seen on the right side of the fence rathe than deal with the complex matters of reality, facts and proof.


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    #37
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭C3PO


    Can't wait to see how UCI and McQuaid react to this! Will they just wash their hands of Armstrong .... "Wasn't our decision, nothing we can do!"? Will they strip him of the titles .... will they award them to somebody else?

    I'm also willing to bet that David Walsh has another book waiting in the wings!


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    #38
    shels4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    average_runner wrote: »
    So every year he won the tour de france he failed a drug test?

    The first year he did as far as I know but gave a back dated prescription, not sure how often this happened.


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    #39
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    No
    The other thing is that if he's now sanctioned, it'll open him up to a number of possible court cases. I'm sure SCA Promotions will be very interested in this. And I'm wondering if a lot of sponsors will be looking for their money back.


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    #40
    DeadMan1
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭DeadMan1


    No
    Shane Stokes interview with Tygart fills in some detail. Says the evidence will be release when time is right

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12712/Travis-Tygart-Interview-Armstrongs-results-from-August-1st-1998-will-be-stripped.aspx


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    #41
    death1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 3,333 ✭✭✭death1234567


    No
    average_runner wrote: »
    So every year he won the tour de france he failed a drug test?
    No he failed a drugs test in 1999, the year of his first tour win. If the UCI had taken action then then perhaps this whole shambles could have been averted. If you know anything about cycling then you know LA doped systematically and is arguably the biggest dope cheat in the history of sport.

    Its not surprising at all that LA has come with this drivel statement. Faced with overwhelming evidence against him of course he was not going to fight it and let all that evidence come out. Now he will continue to play the witch hunt card and his deluded and/or ill informed "Fans" will continue to support him. Its a shame that he will never get exposed completely or be man enough to admit what he did.

    Possibly a great watershed day for cycling if the right actions are taken. I don;t believe they will be though.


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    #42
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    No
    Beasty wrote: »
    I didn't say that - he's a proven doper, and that's good enough for me

    I intend to waste no more of my life thinking about LA.

    I read this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hello-mum-this-is-going-to-be-hard-for-you-to-read-1753008.html this morning and, for me at least, it puts LA's sordid antics in perspective.


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    #43
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,232 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    No
    Beasty wrote: »
    According to David Walsh speaking on Newstalk this morning, he will lose them as it's entirely within the power of the USADA to do this and they have indicated they will.

    Presumably the question of whether anyone else is "promoted" in his place is down to the UCI and/or Tour organisers though


    LA doesn't seem to think they can take away his titles:
    "The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA’s improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority."


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    #44
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    That was going to be my question.

    Surely only UCI and the IOC can strip his TdF/Olympic titles? While the USADA and CAS can no doubt make a request for the withdrawal, presumably the final word rests with the world governing bodies?


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    #45
    Flandria
    Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭Flandria


    No
    quagmired wrote: »
    kimmage will be trilled. He might flog a few more books and recruit some more readers to his bile. He was always much better at writing sensationalist tripe with a very very loose connection to reality than he was at cycling (average? No mate, you were rubbish).
    Truth is we'll never know. There is zero evidence. Which makes me laugh so much at all the smug idiots who tell you 'oh I knew all along'. They're just attention craving losers who want to be seen on the right side of the fence rathe than deal with the complex matters of reality, facts and proof.


    And I'm trilled for you as well...


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    #46
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,232 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    No
    In fact, LA seems quite adamant that they can't take away his achievements!

    "USADA cannot assert control of a professional international sport and attempt to strip my seven Tour de France titles. I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won those seven Tours. We all raced together. For three weeks over the same roads, the same mountains, and against all the weather and elements that we had to confront. There were no shortcuts, there was no special treatment. The same courses, the same rules. The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that. Especially not Travis Tygart."

    Does this mean the American Sports History books will be different to European Books...God what a mess!


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    #47
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    No
    I am both saddened and delighted. Sad for all the cancer sufferers who put their hope in him and looked up to him who he conned but delighted that the cheat has been caught. Delighted also for Nobby O'Reillys sister Emma, bassons and all the rest he bullied.


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    #48
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    No
    quagmired wrote: »
    There is zero evidence
    What a silly assertion. Of course there is evidence. You think LA is about to be stripped of his titles despite a lack of evidence? Leaving aside allegations of failed tests, there witness testimony and we know that US Postal was systematically doping during these years

    For me that's the crucial bit. Regardless of LA's own doping, that his lieutenants Landis and Hamilton were guilty is damning in itself. LA rode to victory as part of a highly organised and massively talented team. If these guys were doped up to the skies... well, at the very least LA's wins are tarnished
    Which makes me laugh so much at all the smug idiots who tell you 'oh I knew all along'. They're just attention craving losers who want to be seen on the right side of the fence rathe than deal with the complex matters of reality, facts and proof.
    Something that is much better served than blanket denials and omerta...


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    #49
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,068 ✭✭✭buffalo


    No
    RobFowl wrote: »
    I intend to waste no more of my life thinking about LA.

    I read this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hello-mum-this-is-going-to-be-hard-for-you-to-read-1753008.html this morning and, for me at least, it puts LA's sordid antics in perspective.

    I'm in tears at my desk here, thanks Rob.


  • Options
    #50
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,359 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    No
    RobFowl wrote: »
    I intend to waste no more of my life thinking about LA.

    I read this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hello-mum-this-is-going-to-be-hard-for-you-to-read-1753008.html this morning and, for me at least, it puts LA's sordid antics in perspective.
    Off topic but that dead soldier chose to go to war.
    My thoughts are with the Afghan people who had no choice in the matter.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #51
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Beasty wrote: »
    I didn't say that - he's a proven doper, and that's good enough for me


    Didnt say u did, was just asking


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    #52
    finbarrk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭finbarrk


    death1234567 wrote: »
    No he failed a drugs test in 1999, the year of his first tour win. If the UCI had taken action then then perhaps this whole shambles could have been averted. If you know anything about cycling then you know LA doped systematically and is arguably the biggest dope cheat in the history of sport.

    Its not surprising at all that LA has come with this drivel statement. Faced with overwhelming evidence against him of course he was not going to fight it and let all that evidence come out. Now he will continue to play the witch hunt card and his deluded and/or ill informed "Fans" will continue to support him. Its a shame that he will never get exposed completely or be man enough to admit what he did.

    Possibly a great watershed day for cycling if the right actions are taken. I don;t believe they will be though.
    I f you think he was the biggest dope cheat in sport why wasn't he caught with all the tests that were done on him?


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    #53
    irishmotorist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭irishmotorist


    No
    quagmired wrote: »
    Truth is we'll never know. There is zero evidence. Which makes me laugh so much at all the smug idiots who tell you 'oh I knew all along'. They're just attention craving losers who want to be seen on the right side of the fence rathe than deal with the complex matters of reality, facts and proof.

    I don't think that's correct. L'Equipe published an exclusive a couple of years ago about EPO being detected in a test belonging to Armstrong. Long story short, testers were developing a test for EPO and were using samples collected from the years that EPO was known to be used. A bit of cross-referencing etc. showed that one of the samples that they had that had traces of EPO in it belonged to Armstrong from one of his early wins.

    This testing was done outside of normal test procedures so you can throw whatever mud you'd like at it and say that the results were cooked or whatever. I had made up my own mind way before this, but it's yet another piece to consider.
    This gives a bit of an overview of what the paper published.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/aug/24/tourdefrance2005.tourdefrance1


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    #54
    Morrisseeee
    Registered Users Posts: 5,146 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    No
    There's never smoke without fire :eek:


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    #55
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    No
    Armstrong is a massive cheat who took loads of drugs.

    Ahhhhh. It was nice not having to qualify those statements.


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    #56
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    No
    Damn, double post.


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    #57
    SetOverSet
    Registered Users Posts: 421 ✭✭SetOverSet


    What happens to the yellow jerseys? If Ulrich, an admitted doper, is promoted, he'll become a four-time winner - more than LeMond...


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    #58
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    No
    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Armstrong is a massive cheat who took loads of drugs.



    Ahhhhh. It was nice not having to qualify those statements.

    ... but posting it twice is spam;)


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    #59
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    death1234567 wrote: »
    No he failed a drugs test in 1999, the year of his first tour win. If the UCI had taken action then then perhaps this whole shambles could have been averted. If you know anything about cycling then you know LA doped systematically and is arguably the biggest dope cheat in the history of sport.

    Its not surprising at all that LA has come with this drivel statement. Faced with overwhelming evidence against him of course he was not going to fight it and let all that evidence come out. Now he will continue to play the witch hunt card and his deluded and/or ill informed "Fans" will continue to support him. Its a shame that he will never get exposed completely or be man enough to admit what he did.

    Possibly a great watershed day for cycling if the right actions are taken. I don;t believe they will be though.


    I love watching cycling but i havent got too much knowledge on the sport. This is just a question:
    How do we know he is what you said above. What i mean if this is consider general knowledge why has he gotten away with it so long?

    If the man is guilty i hope he gets taken to the cleaners.


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    #60
    death1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 3,333 ✭✭✭death1234567


    No
    finbarrk wrote: »
    why wasn't he caught with all the tests that were done on him?
    The same reason Marion Jones was never caught. The dopers are ahead of the dope tests, they take drugs/transfusions that they know won't show up in a drugs test. Could you not have worked that out yourself?
    How do we know he is what you said above?
    Pretty much every 2nd or 3rd placed cyclist he has ever beaten has been implicated in doping or is a confirmed doper. In 1998 the French police raided the tour de france and found doping equipment everywhere. In 1999 the year of Lance's first tour win they thought the doping was cleaned up and the winning time for the race would be slower, it was much much faster. If you look the power outputs LA and others were doing back in the early 2000's it virtually impossible to do that without being on drugs/blood boosting/etc. He's guilty beyond any resonable doubt.


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    #61
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    No
    finbarrk wrote: »
    I f you think he was the biggest dope cheat in sport why wasn't he caught with all the tests that were done on him?

    just a spot of luck I would say ;)

    Wasnt there tests done on samples from 99,00 which showed growth hormone and EPO...There were no tests for it at that time.


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