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Dawkins sounds off. Lots of atheists upset.

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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    There are many different communities who primarily self-identify as atheists, at least for the purpose of their involvement in activities organized by or for that community. One example is the members of this forum.
    In the however-many years that I've been mod here, I've never once got the impression that this forum is a "community" in the group-based sense you've used here. Instead, it's simply a place where people of all persuasions hang out to talk about whatever's up, as politely as possible, and with the least amount of interference. And that's my experience of all the individuals who happen to be atheists who've ever met up, though obviously not individuals who self-select to be members of groups like Atheist Ireland. Might be worth checking this out on a public poll all the same.

    Anyhow, as above, the issue I have isn't that such groups exist, but rather that they're referred to as "communities", whether they exist or not, and with the concomitant ingroup/outgroup dangers that can and do arise.

    Whatever one's personal views about the Watson controversy, I think it's clear enough to most people that most people who've observed this mess -- I'm not going to use a term like "the skeptical/atheist community" -- would probably agree that there certainly is a lot of fairly intemperate groupthink going on. And that's hard to avoid when groups have been declared.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 246 ✭✭bipedalhumanoid


    robindch wrote: »
    In the however-many years that I've been mod here, I've never once got the impression that this forum is a "community" in the group-based sense you've used here.

    I recently had a heated discussion with someone elsewhere who was all hot under the colar at the fact that I used the term "online atheist community".

    I have two quesions.

    Why on earth do you care so much about the use of this word that you'd bother to enter a debate about it? Is it really the use of the word that is the problem or do you simply refuse to accept that there ARE people out there who care enough about their atheism to form communities?

    What term DO you use to describe the collection of atheists who:
    a) Join atheist organisations
    b) Meet in person with other atheists to discuss atheism and atheist related issues with other atheists
    c) Gather online to discuss atheism and other atheist related issues with other atheists

    Post Edit: Suggested Reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_community


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,480 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    What term DO you use to describe the collection of atheists who:
    a) Join atheist organisations
    b) Meet in person with other atheists to discuss atheism and atheist related issues with other atheists
    c) Gather online to discuss atheism and other atheist related issues with other atheists

    Only speaking for myself of course, but:
    a) I'm not a member of any atheist organisations
    b) Never met anyone in person to discuss atheism
    c) While this is probably true, I wouldn't say it's a big enough blanket to cover everyone under. I spent years discussing on (and even moderating on) the Conspiracy Theories forum. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, nor was there any real sense of there being a conspiracy theory "community" (and with the amount of infractions/bans I had to issue, there definitely did not seem to be any sense of community). While there are a number of people who post here regularly, I couldn't tell you any of their real names. I don't know any of them. I don't always agree with all of them. I know nothing about them unless they post something. There isn't even an Off-Topic thread here for general chat between friends.

    Maybe this forum does fit into the definition of Online Community, but I don't think anyone here necessarily treats it as such. It's a place for discussing a particular topic, and happens to have many of the same posters most of the time.

    I'm on other sites that definitely have an online community feeling. I know their real names, we've met up a few times. It's a lot more personal. Here, we discuss atheism and religion. That's it.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Is it really the use of the word that is the problem or do you simply refuse to accept that there ARE people out there who care enough about their atheism to form communities?
    I outlined my objections in this post, just up above.
    What term DO you use to describe the collection of atheists who: a) Join atheist organisations
    Well, I'd typically refer to people who join Atheist Ireland as "members of Atheist Ireland"; people who join the Irish Skeptics, as "members of the Irish Skeptics" or perhaps "Irish Skeptics" as shorthand. And so on.
    b) Meet in person with other atheists to discuss atheism and atheist related issues with other atheists
    Sounds like members of Atheist Ireland to me. The Skeptics in the Pub do the same kind of thing, but almost nobody talks about atheism. Not much to talk about really. In my experience, the chatter's mostly about science, irreligious gags, soccer, current affairs, elevatorgate and so on.
    c) Gather online to discuss atheism and other atheist related issues with other atheists
    I usually refer to people who post here as "posters" or "forum regulars", depending on whether they post regularly or not. I don't ever recall referring to it as a "community", though judging from some of the "yiz are all herd-like" comments that (typically) fly-by religious posters make from time to time, it seems that there are at least some people who do view the forum as a community, and a ghastly one at that.

    I also avoid the term "community" because of some of its other overtones too. For example, one often hears about the "muslim community", the "traveller community", the "jewish community", frequently within the context of a group which has had suffered outgroup persecution in the past. That doesn't apply to atheists who were typically ungrouped in the past, and ran into trouble with religious authorities individually, and not as a separately identifiable group. Also, with some instances of the term, there can also be a sense of a persecution complex, and that's an secondary meaning I'd like to avoid having applied.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Robin,

    From as far back as the mid-1990s, one of the constant big ideas about the Internet has been how it enables online communities to develop, which are based on shared interest rather than geographical proximity, and how this development has reshaped and redefined the concept of community.

    There are books and conferences dedicated to building online communities. Even with regard to websites where people gather with different interests, many people talk uncontroversially about the Facebook community, the YouTube community, the Twitter community etc. On a more local level, the Boards.ie FAQ refers to ‘the community we have built here’ and ‘the community’s rules’.

    I agree that there is a distinction between the generic use of community as a shorthand for describing a loose coalition of people who have something in common, and the more specific use of community to refer to the richer interaction between people who know each other and feel a bond with each other. Also, there is an overlap between online communities and real-life communities. And most people are members of many communities, which can be distinct or can overlap or can be nested within each other.

    But I think it should be uncontroversial to say that atheist communities exist.
    .


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  • Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But I think it should be uncontroversial to say that atheist communities exist.

    I think the objection is due to how the word community is normally used: as in Black community or jewish community.
    Where this forum might be a community, it's not the same as the atheist community. Similarly those who attend AI or SITP etc are not the atheist community either, they are communities of people who go to those things. And those who go to conferences regularly and have blogs are a further separate community.

    There isn't an atheist community in the same way there are communities of disparate ethnic or religious groups.
    Further you can't say that there is a problem in the "atheist community" when you are in fact referring to a community of conference goers and a community of bloggers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    King Mob wrote: »
    I think the objection is due to how the word community is normally used: as in Black community or jewish community.

    Yeah but is there a "the" black community or "the" jewish community either? Maybe so, but I've always found these terms very odd.

    I don't feel like I belong to the "black community" any more than the "atheist community". I don't even know what that's meant to be. Is having something arbitrary in common with other people enough to make that collection of people a "community". Possibly, but I'd suggest it isn't, especially since I don't interact with people on that basis. I feel like I belong to my local community with whom I regularly engage, and the community of physicists with whom I regularly engage.

    I think the qualifier is having common, distinct and actively pursued interests. I don't think atheists have common interests sufficiently distinct from wider society that gives merit to classing them a "community". I think it's unnecessarily divisive and also unproductive as it simply gives fodder to the classic lazy (and ironic) criticism of atheism as "just another religion".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Kooli wrote: »
    If you don't want to read the link, that's fine. But I won't continue because we both have a different understanding of 'privilege' so we are speaking at crossed purposes. And again, it's not someone else's 'argument' - it's just a good explanation of something. I'm not trying to 'win a debate' here, nor am I desperate to 'be right', so I not looking for 'good arguments' written by other people. I think it's a bit weird that you're not willing to read it, but still want to argue the point, but hey that's cool.

    It is someone elses argument. Every response of yours to my discussion on privilege has been to read some blog some other person wrote. Why should I do that when I have you here to talk to? IF I'm getting it wrong, then explain how I'm wrong (referencing others if you like) but if you can't explain why I am wrong, then maybe you don't understand this discussion as well as you think you do.
    Kooli wrote: »
    I get that you think of your identity as the way you think, and you identify very strongly with being a rational skeptic. I don't think of identity that way. And I'm sorry that annoys you.

    Who said it annoys me? And I don't identify with being a rational skeptic, I identify as being as rationally skeptical as possible.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    It wouldn't have any hesitation suggesting there is an element of community here, were it not for the negative connotations associated.

    Once you label yourself as such people can choose to see you as so much more that a bunch of regular, (mostly) anonymous posters who have a penchant for the irreligious.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,811 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    Sorry for dropping in on this conversation/discussion, one that has been going on for some time.
    It seems to me that there is a fundamental disconnect between the way men and women feel threat and the situations that make them feel this way.
    This leads to men finding women in threat outside their experience and women finding men heartless for callous for not being tuned in to a reality for many of their sex.
    I am a male, working in a female dominated environment, and I can understand the disconnect and how a situation, a proposition in an elevator in Dublin can be so casual for a male and so threatening for a female.
    I can also see how an intelligent man like Dawkins can get things so wrong in his comments, but remain a good man, simply ignorant to the female mindset, as familiar as he is with the male one.
    What also tells me that this is core issue, is how the argument degraded quickly into a war of sides, a war of intellectuals throwing forum comments at each other, as seen on Skepchicks own site as well as others.

    A man, hammered in a lift, with an attractive woman he has probably had his eye on for a hour or more, thinks in his mind "the thing to do now is propose sex, what a good idea"

    He makes the statement.

    The woman on the other hand is frightened, she doesn't know this guy, even if she made his acquaintance their is no reason there was a sexual component to it, and then here is a man making such a request.
    Recent female media behaviour might suggest that women are behaving more and more like men, but is this seems to be more a construct to create a demographic of young women who drink to excess and treat sex casually.
    The truth is, as much as some men may wish it to be so, most women take a completely different approach to sex.

    And so, back in the lift.
    The woman is appalled but conceals her anxiety until she gets out of the situation.

    Remember this took place in a confined elevator, a place that causes anxiety for many to begin with, although a woman alone in any situation may feel similarly threatened,
    I have had female friends threatened sexually by certain behaviours in crowed spaces.

    Ultimately many men fail to see what went wrong here, why did the woman over react to a proposition that had mo mal intent, but what the men don't recognise is, how on earth is the woman supposed to know what the mans intent is?

    Truth of it is that behaviour is often shaped by past experience, reinforced again and again by results that conform to expectations.
    When a man makes a sexual proposition to a woman the womans past experience is that of the aggression and threatening behaviour that a rejection results in.
    I have had enough female friends who have experienced this, especially during my college days.
    So, is it any wonder that, in a confined elevator space a woman does not really know what she is potentially in store for when she turns a man down?
    She wonders, has he waitied to get me here, alone, to ask me?

    The man, on the other hand, has no idea, or at least in this situation he had no idea.
    Too often men know damn well what they are doing and machismo demands that they at least make some protest or comment to cope with the rejection.
    This common in pubs and clubs and is a pain to see in a public place.
    Imagine it, once again, in a small confined space like an elevator...

    That's my take on it anyway.

    I think Dawkins just doesn't get it, which is a pity, but then that is always the ways with heroes, they turn out to have feet of clay after all and the pedestal is, perhaps, ill deserved in this instance.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 246 ✭✭bipedalhumanoid


    I can remember participating in online "communities" in the pre-internet days. I used to dial into my local BBS with a 2600bps modem to read the daily updated Findonet threads I participated in.

    I participated in chess games that progressed at a rate of 1 move per day in the chess community and debated religion in the religion community.

    I've never known it to be a controversial term. Google "online communities" and you get loads of results...

    About 11,200,000 results (0.33 seconds)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,294 ✭✭✭MrVestek


    I swore to myself that I'd unfollow this thread but I didn't... and now here I am weighing in on this.

    I can agree with everything that Ciderman said above but only to a point. The assumption here seems to be that that the guy asked her back to his hotel room for sex.

    This could simply have been an offer to make a friend and to genuinely make a connection with somebody. I can see why she would be threatened as the usual male behaviour would tell Skepchick that this was an advance but we can't be certain of that.

    I know for one thing years ago I used to be very awkward socially around people and I would make a comment to somebody and it could be totally misconstrued to mean something else. For instance I once asked a girl I had no interest in sexually back to mine to chill out and play videogames etc.

    She actually obliged, we hung out had fun and did nothing of a sexual nature whatsoever. To this day she's still a good friend of mine.

    Wether some people like it or not males and females can actually proposition somebody with friendship and not anything else. I know it's not a societal norm for this to happen even in this day and age but that's not to say that it's impossible. Had this been at another time in my life or if the girl had simply taken me up the wrong way I'm sure she'd have seen me as a sex pest at the time.

    I think Dawkin's reaction was a bit harsh but at the end of the day I can see where he's coming from, that at the end of the day if you feel somebody is propositioning you regardless of wether it's appropriate and how it makes you feel that in the grand scheme of things when you think about the bigger picture that it's not something to get so up in arms about.

    I can also see it from Skepchick's point of view in the sense that it was a completely inappropriate place for this to happen if indeed it were a proposition for sex but then I also think that that's a very big assumption for her to have made in the first place. For somebody that claims to be a humanist it's a very sexist thing for her to assume.

    That's my two cents anyway...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    CiDeRmAn wrote: »
    And so, back in the lift.
    The woman is appalled but conceals her anxiety until she gets out of the situation.

    Again with the Schrodinger's rapist crap and an incredibly negative way of framing the whole thing - how about:

    A group of people who know each other have been attending a very friendly and positive conference all day end up drinking together until 4am in a social context - two of them end up in a lift - he BECAUSE NORMALLY YOU DON'T SHOUT THESE THINGS OUT IN PUBLIC - asks her politely "fancy coming back to mine for coffee?" - she says "no thanks" - there now follows 5 seconds of awkward silence and they both go their own way.

    Anyway - this is not what this thread is about - the original complaint from Watson was that she didn't want to be "sexualised" ie considered a sexual being in this context. This was from someone who had done more than most to garner attention in the skeptic community by sexualising herself. The whole "WAIT ... LIFT SCARY MAN" came later to deflect from the idiocy of her original complaint - when WOMEN disagreed with her.

    So please don't frame this as a male/female thing (men just don't get it!) - the first people who dared question her in a very polite and tentative manner where women - who were then give both barrels of "gender traitor" and "rape apologist" from Watson and her cronies.

    This is modern Ireland - it's perfectly OK to talk to a woman in a lift (it's *not* OK to grope her, get your bits out - etc etc. but talking to her is fine) - if you don't like that move to Saudi Arabia - they have a simple solution to all this,
    Achilles wrote:
    I think Dawkin's reaction was a bit harsh but at the end of the day I can see where he's coming from, that at the end of the day if you feel somebody is propositioning you regardless of wether it's appropriate and how it makes you feel that in the grand scheme of things when you think about the bigger picture that it's not something to get so up in arms about.

    Dawkin's response was pretty much "First world problem" - what he was saying is if you as a privileged white western woman are given a platform at international secular/atheist conferences and all you want to do is rattle on about an issue that affects you - rather than as at the time the was a push on in these communities to highlight women's rights in Muslim countries - then you are open for criticism.

    If a committee on "Men's health" in the WHO which was dominated by 50 year old rich white western men only wanted to discuss (or make it a major topic) erectile dysfunction then they'd would surely be open to criticism that from a global perspective - as something that the WHO should be dealing with there are bigger and more important health concerns than stuff which affects them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 246 ✭✭bipedalhumanoid


    On the whole elevator gate thing. There are a few lies being systematically spread around on this issue. But lets focus on one that is easily verifiable and not open to a potential difference of interpretation.

    The lie is the claim that elevator guy had hit on her after she had given a presentation where she said she didn't want to be hit on at conferences. - you can check this for yourself, because the video of her talk at the conference is available for all to see.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W014KhaRtik

    In her talk, Watson does not at any point mention any kind of unwanted attention at conferences, or any kind of sexual harassment at conferences. She talks only about nasty anonymous emails and comments that she claims came from both atheists and religious people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I'm not sure the initial circumstances actually really matter at this stage - it's the comments it generated and the subsequent sniping that has developed that has done the most harm in terms of damaging perceptions. I think still trying to discredit RW is rather missing the woods because you're staring at a single tree.

    My views in a nutshell:

    a) Many woman tend not to appreciate being followed into enclosed spaces and propositioned in a manner that they may find threatening/awkward/annoying/etc - fnucking basic social cop-on, tbh...but hey, it happens everywhere and while I think anyone has the right to complain about it, it's something that should be dealt with by complaining to the organisers/security/whatever in attendance in relation to the people actually causing the issues, rather than a blanket comment about and to all male attendees.

    b) Many people are going to think less/be put off/avoid like the plague any organisation/movement/event/whatever who vociferously defends the rights of it's members/their peers/themselves to make advances on a minority of female attendees - fnucking basic public relations nightmare 1#


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,294 ✭✭✭MrVestek


    I wonder what would have happened had a male told everybody that he felt threatened by somebody propositioning him in a conference like this.

    I'm sure the outcome would have been exactly the same, right?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 246 ✭✭bipedalhumanoid


    I'm not sure the initial circumstances actually really matter at this stage -

    The initial circumstances matter a great deal and here's why.

    In the talk, the video of which I included in my previous post, the best examples RW could come up with of "misogyny" were a few nasty emails and comments. RW now claims to have been aware of much more serious, physical sexual harassment having occured at conferences predating the Dublin conference. Surely if that were true, those would have made much better examples than the piss weak ones she presented!

    It's also important in understanding how we got from nasty emails to "I don't feel safe at TAM". Professional victimhood. Every time RW, PZ or any of the FTB and SkepChick bloggers stir up controversy, the advertising revenue starts rolling in for them. They don't want this to go away, they're loving it.

    I don't trust them to give a fair and honest account of sexual harassment and misogyny in our community any more than I'd trust a spokesman from Philip Morris to give a fair and honest account of the link between smoking and lung cancer!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Achilles wrote: »
    I wonder what would have happened had a male told everybody that he felt threatened by somebody propositioning him in a conference like this.

    I'm sure the outcome would have been exactly the same, right?

    If the statistics pertaining to both attendees and crime victims were also reversed then I suspect it would have been similar...I'd also hope the reaction would be rational enough to take the above into account, being rational skeptics and all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I don't trust them to give a fair and honest account of sexual harassment and misogyny in our community than I'd trust a spokesman from Philip Morris to give a fair and honest account of the link between smoking and lung cancer!

    While I agree completely with you - I think you're missing my point.

    To the outside world it's "women" complaining about their experiences - and there are many more commenting and posting about it than just a handful at SkepChick, PZM or FtB - and being dismissed by an organisation/event/whatever that is predominantly male, dismissed with nasty comments, demands that they be allowed to crack-on to who they want, where they want, etc, etc. It's cringe-worthy.

    While RW is doing a fantastic job at mud slinging - it's the responses she's had and the general attitudes by some that oppose even acknowledging an issue may exist and that any such issue should be dealt with - that are making it stick. My 2c.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Achilles wrote: »
    I wonder what would have happened had a male told everybody that he felt threatened by somebody propositioning him in a conference like this.

    .......

    I'd have proposed a smack in the gob as the cure to his malfunction, tbh.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭condra


    Hi, My names Robert Watson....skep dude dot org.....

    challenge.jpg

    ... and I deny the existence of the Holy Spirit....


    tumblr_lcttnsi9AX1qb5bn1.gif

    I also deny the existence of unicorns and homeopathy and psychics and leprechauns....


    e39.png

    .. I got into a lift and this girl was like ... wanna grab coffee ..

    y-u-no.png

    GIRLS! ... DON'T DO THAT!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 179 ✭✭decimatio


    a) Many woman tend not to appreciate being followed into enclosed spaces and propositioned in a manner that they may find threatening/awkward/annoying/etc - fnucking basic social cop-on, tbh...but hey, it happens everywhere and while I think anyone has the right to complain about it, it's something that should be dealt with by complaining to the organisers/security/whatever in attendance in relation to the people actually causing the issues, rather than a blanket comment about and to all male attendees.

    But this is the thing, what can or should the organisers do?

    You're 100% right that women have every right to feel uncomfortable or threatened in such a situation and they have every right to complain about it. But how was the act itself wrong in any meaningful way?

    People can feel uncomfortable, awkward, threatened, or just plain old annoyed by a variety of actions or situations caused by others but that doesn't make the acts themselves wrong.

    I'm not supporting what the guy did but he does have the right to do it.

    You say its common decency and I agree with you to an extent but you have to remember that that is very subjective. People are different and have very different ideas of what is socially acceptable or not.

    Here's an example. Please note im not comparing the situations directly, im making a point about personal freedoms and how people are different. I work with people of various nationalities and recently an american woman made a complainy against an australian man because she found his language offensive. Namely 'bloody' and 'f%&king'. She asked our employer to make him stop using that language in our office. He actually doesn't use such language when talking to her because she had previously asked him not to but he does use it with others.

    I don't know how other people here feel about such language but its not offensive to me and the other workers are british/australian, and they too don't find it offensive. Should he stop using these words because she finds them offensive? Personally I would try not to use such language in front of people I know don't appreciate it but it's his right to do so.

    I was recently propositioned by an older woman, someone who knows I'm in a LTR. I find that offensive especially because she knows my partner. I think most people would find such a proposition to be against common decency but others would not. Should there be some law or rule to say people shouldn't proposition people with partners or married people?

    Of course not. Its their right to do so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Absolutely decimatio. But let's not forget that we're talking about a movement which readily admits that women are a minority and - iirc re the last thing I read about TAM - have reported that attendance from women has since dropped even further.

    The question now is do atheists (or the atheists that are getting involved, at least) want to sit around bitching at each other having a pissing contest over who is more right/wrong re the minutia of these (relative) nobodies and their blogs, most of which the rest of the world haven't heard of while the general reputation and credibility of rationals/skeptics goes out of the window...or do they want to promote themselves as rational, inclusive and progressive? Because they can't do both.

    So to me it comes down to making a simple choice - pride or public opinion...and this is where "the movement" has looked very naive. Sometimes you just have to be more politic; take a step back, acknowledge that some view that there is an issue which affects your event/movement/etc negatively and you hold your hands up and state it's not acceptable that any minority be made to feel that way...because doing anything else just makes it look like you both accept and wilfully promote the very behaviours that are getting your event/movement/etc such bad press. Derp.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 179 ✭✭decimatio


    Ickle, I'm pretty sure we're mostly in agreement.

    I'm quite happy about which others don't seem to be is how several high profile people have made such complete asses of themselves. I'm glad they have shown their true colours. I believed a lot of these people were intellectually honest and now I know better. PZ Myers in particular has lost all respect I ever had for him. (Actually about his political stances and subsequent dishonesty moreso than this issue)

    One thing though. I'm not convinced of the benefits of affirmitive action type policies. It doesn't seem to fix the problem, rather it deals with the symptoms.

    I think what watson et al are proposing to fix these percieved problems makes women out to be victims. I don't want to think about women or anyone else for that matter in such a way. Its a form of inequality and discrimination itself in my opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    decimatio wrote: »
    One thing though. I'm not convinced of the benefits of affirmitive action type policies. It doesn't seem to fix the problem, rather it deals with the symptoms.

    I guess that depends on what you think the problem is - RW et all feeling they have any semblance of victory or "the movement" looking vaguely appealing to new (and current!) members, of the female variety in particular.
    decimatio wrote: »
    I think what watson et al are proposing to fix these percieved problems makes women out to be victims. I don't want to think about women or anyone else for that matter in such a way. Its a form of inequality and discrimination itself in my opinion.

    I don't think RW et al get to decide how these issues are fixed, I vaguely recall seeing something about some stupid manifesto and I had to stop reading before I lost faith in humanity altogether...

    BUT...I also think we have to be realistic (ie politic). If anyone thinks they are going to encourage more [female] participation in their male dominated movement by essentially declaring women should expect to be greeted with and out-numbered by socially inept hopefuls because anything else would be discriminatory to those women, they are living in cloud cuckoo land.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    BUT...I also think we have to be realistic (ie politic). If anyone thinks they are going to encourage more [female] participation in their male dominated movement by essentially declaring women should expect to be greeted with and out-numbered by socially inept hopefuls because anything else would be discriminatory to those women, they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    So what would you do? Have a quota for socially inept hopefuls at conferences?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 246 ✭✭bipedalhumanoid


    I guess that depends on what you think the problem is - RW et all feeling they have any semblance of victory or "the movement" looking vaguely appealing to new (and current!) members, of the female variety in particular.

    Both Rebecca Watson and Paula Kirby want to increase the number of women in the organisation.

    Watson's approach is to reserve 50% of speaking places for women, rather than choosing speakers on their own merits. It assumes that the absence of women is due to sexism.

    Kirby's approach is to encourage women, who have something to say to go for it and put themselves forward in competition with the existing male and female speakers. It assumes that the absence of women is caused by women being less willing to assert themselves and put themselves forward as speakers.

    Which do you think will result in the greatest pedigree of speakers? Do you really think women are going to attend a conference just because there are more female speakers, even if the standard is low?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Both Rebecca Watson and Paula Kirby want to increase the number of women in the organisation.

    Watson's approach is to reserve 50% of speaking places for women, rather than choosing speakers on their own merits. It assumes that the absence of women is due to sexism.

    Kirby's approach is to encourage women, who have something to say to go for it and put themselves forward in competition with the existing male and female speakers. It assumes that the absence of women is caused by women being less willing to assert themselves and put themselves forward as speakers.
    Bip,

    That’s a bit of a false dichotomy, because both can be true.

    One of the results of sexism (whether active or passive) is that women can be less willing to assert themselves and put themselves forward as speakers.
    Which do you think will result in the greatest pedigree of speakers? Do you really think women are going to attend a conference just because there are more female speakers, even if the standard is low?
    Why would more female speakers lower the standard?

    And why do you imply that the purpose of having female speakers is to entice female listeners?


  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Why would more female speakers lower the standard?

    If they've a better chance of being chosen because they're women then it's lowering the standard.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Bip,

    That’s a bit of a false dichotomy, because both can be true.

    One of the results of sexism (whether active or passive) is that women can be less willing to assert themselves and put themselves forward as speakers.


    Why would more female speakers lower the standard?

    And why do you imply that the purpose of having female speakers is to entice female listeners?

    Any quota system tends to lower standards.

    Is this still going on? Asking someone back for coffee is perfectly fine except in some bizzaro world where -humans interact but can never proposition each other, and can possibly only get together if the hierarchies are flattened, the patriarchy erased, and cute little blue ponies float in the sky singing atheist carols. And only then if the whole proposition is written out in triplicate, agreed to by the party of the second part after due deliberation, and signed by Germaine Greer.

    The situation, as it stands is:

    A guy gets into a lift, as is his right.
    He politely asks for coffee - a request which is a polite, as polite as possible way to ask for potential intimacy, or possibly coffee, thats the point of mannerly language like that, it leaves it open.
    He is refused, and is quite ok with it.
    Were he a rapist, a groper, or a sexist he wouldn't have politely asked for coffee, or anything.

    Atheism is not extreme feminism. Its a non-belief in God. Thats all. If certain women can't handle being asked for coffee, and being treated amiably when refused, I suggest that travel might be too much in future.

    At any rate atheists can be rightwing, middling, centralists, centre left, or far left but they don't have to be extreme feminists. There are other conferences for the kind of people who think that there is an all pervading patriarchy and normal conversation should be banned, curtailed, or frowned upon.

    This is important in other ways too - the atheist movement makes light of offence taken by Christians to a piss Jesus, or the deification of the Flying Spaghetti monster - it cant afford shrinking violets scared out of their shadows by polite propositions in lifts.


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