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Prof. William Lane Craig

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    philologos wrote: »
    The "Gish Gallop" stuff you've actually given is nonsense. It doesn't even mention what's wrong with William Lane Craig's argument.

    After having looked at the debate with Sam Harris a while ago, it was clear that Craig had the better argument. It seems like excuse making to me. Craig is a better debater. As for those claiming he doesn't have any academic credentials (as Dawkins tried to do in his Guardian article when he refused to debate Craig) the man is one of the leading philosophers of religion and is widely published in that field.

    I heard Craig speak in London last October, and I thought he argued his points well. You've yet to show that any of his points were nonsensical (or as the Urban Dictionary put it bull****).

    Forgive me, but isn't the point of these debates to convince the opposition of the validity of one's position and thereby bring them over to ones own side?

    If that is the point then the consensus of the opposition in that Craig failed to convince them. Phil - you may have found his arguments convincing but you are both already on the same side - you both believe in the existence of God. Has Craig convinced an Atheist? - that would be the measure of his skill, reasoning and abilities.

    Or he may be just interested in flim-flamming and diversionary tactics in order to score temporary points off his opponents as many here believe. But in doing so he is playing to his own gallery and not convincing the unconvinced.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    King Mob wrote: »
    What's wrong with it is that it's a dishonest tactic.

    It's a poor argument insofar as it doesn't apply to Craig in any meaningful sense.
    King Mob wrote: »
    But being a good debater doesn't make you points good, or mean that they would stand up to detailed scrutiny.

    Except that his arguments were excellent in comparison to Harris'.
    King Mob wrote: »
    For example in a live debate you could throw out a hundred misunderstandings and misrepresented points in the time it would take to explain how just one of those points was misrepresented and misunderstood.

    It sounds like meaningless excuse making.
    King Mob wrote: »
    So which of his points are particularly convincing?

    The argument he makes in the debate Sam Harris in respect to the objective grounding for morality is excellent. It was made by many many others before Craig, for example C.S Lewis makes it in his Mere Christianity. I've yet to find a decent atheist response which deals with this, on or off of boards.ie.

    Edit: N.B - This was one point that caused me to wake up in respect to my former agnosticism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    philologos wrote: »
    It's a poor argument insofar as it doesn't apply to Craig in any meaningful sense.
    He bombards opponents with information overload, he hides the lack of specific answers in this information overload, he doesn't allow his opponents time to rebut the myriad points he has raised. This is the epitome of the Gish Gallop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    It isn't referring to any specific argument he makes, rather that which he does in general.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    doctoremma wrote: »
    He bombards opponents with information overload, he hides the lack of specific answers in this information overload, he doesn't allow his opponents time to rebut the myriad points he has raised. This is the epitome of the Gish Gallop.

    This seriously sounds like excuse making. The reality of the matter is, if Harris and others had a better argument, they'd be able to convince reasonable people of their conclusions.

    Gumbi: Precisely why I find it deeply unconvincing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    philologos wrote: »
    This seriously sounds like excuse making. The reality of the matter is, if Harris and others had a better argument, they'd be able to convince reasonable people of their conclusions.

    Gumbi: Precisely why I find it deeply unconvincing.

    It's not excuse-making. There are better theistic debaters out there that don't use such tactics - no-one is denying that; at least, I'm not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    philologos wrote: »
    This seriously sounds like excuse making. The reality of the matter is, if Harris and others had a better argument, they'd be able to convince reasonable people of their conclusions.
    That's fine if you think that, if you admire such tactics. I'd be pretty confident that if you were to see Dawkins indulge in such underhanded and frankly disappointing behaviour, you'd be the first to cry 'No fair'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    Gumbi wrote: »
    It's not excuse-making. There are better theistic debaters out there that don't use such tactics - no-one is denying that; at least, I'm not.
    Agree completely.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    philologos wrote: »
    It's a poor argument insofar as it doesn't apply to Craig in any meaningful sense.
    Except it does. Craig employs that tactic often.
    philologos wrote: »
    Except that his arguments were excellent in comparison to Harris'.
    That seems to be pretty subjective, and based more on the flash of how he presented the argument rather than the meat.
    philologos wrote: »
    The argument he makes in the debate Sam Harris in respect to the objective grounding for morality is excellent. It was made by many many others before Craig, for example C.S Lewis makes it in his Mere Christianity. I've yet to find a decent atheist response which deals with this, on or off of boards.ie.

    Edit: N.B - This was one point that caused me to wake up in respect to my former agnosticism.
    But it's not a convincing argument. It is comprehensively demolished by the excellent video posted earlier in the thread.
    But even if his argument held up, he should still know better than to use it.
    As a professor of philosophy he should be able to recognise an appeal to consequence and know why that form of argument is fallacious.
    I've only a bachelor's and I can do that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Gumbi wrote: »
    It's not excuse-making. There are better theistic debaters out there that don't use such tactics - no-one is denying that; at least, I'm not.

    It's very clearly excuse making. The reality is that Craig can argue his case extremely well in comparison to many atheists. I think Craig is a problem for atheists insofar as they refuse to consider that Christians can actually defend their faith.

    For the record, I think the Bible is enough. God has assured us that faith comes by hearing the word of God. However, it is nice to have people like Craig show that there are logical foundations to trusting in God in the 21st century.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    philologos wrote: »
    It's very clearly excuse making. The reality is that Craig can argue his case extremely well in comparison to many atheists. I think Craig is a problem for atheists insofar as they refuse to consider that Christians can actually defend their faith.

    For the record, I think the Bible is enough. God has assured us that faith comes by hearing the word of God. However, it is nice to have people like Craig show that there are logical foundations to trusting in God in the 21st century.

    I repeat my question - is Craig successful if he fails to convince atheists?
    What is the point otherwise?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I repeat my question - is Craig successful if he fails to convince atheists?
    What is the point otherwise?
    I've answered your question already. The Christian position on morality when explained by authors such as C.S Lewis and Craig, was part of the reason why as an agnostic I was wakened up to the inconsistency of holding that position.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    King Mob - 40 seconds in and I already see a problem with that video. I'm going to watch it all, and take some notes and come back on it.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    philologos wrote: »
    I've answered your question already. The Christian position on morality when explained by authors such as C.S Lewis and Craig, was part of the reason why as an agnostic I was wakened up to the inconsistency of holding that position.

    With the greatest of respect Phil - you did not answer my question.

    Being agnostic is not the same as being an atheist.

    Agnostic atheism
    Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.

    Agnostic theism
    The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

    Apathetic or pragmatic agnosticism
    The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.

    I did specifically as if Craig has convinced an Atheist.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    With the greatest of respect Phil - you did not answer my question.

    Being agnostic is not the same as being an atheist.

    Agnostic atheism
    Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.

    Agnostic theism
    The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

    Apathetic or pragmatic agnosticism
    The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.

    I did specifically as if Craig has convinced an Atheist.

    Let's make it clearer then, I wasn't sure that a God existed, and I didn't live as if one existed and had any real role in respect to my life. You can decide which category that fits into. The reality is that these arguments have helped non-believers come to Christ. I don't believe these arguments have primacy over the Bible though in convicting people to accept Jesus as their Lord, but they certainly help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    philologos wrote: »
    King Mob - 40 seconds in and I already see a problem with that video. I'm going to watch it all, and take some notes and come back on it.

    Phil, given your track record, you can understand why I'm skeptical of that.

    Feel free to address the fact that the argument that's convinced you is in fact an appeal to consequence and therefore a dishonest argument.


  • Registered Users Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Midlife Crashes


    Something that I have just noticed while reading the comments on some of craigs videos is that regardless of who actually won the debate, the atheists are going to clam that the evolutionist won. Kinda disappointing when you realize that even while looking at them from an objective view, Craig has in my mind never lost a debate.

    A particular example of this is in the debate vs Hitchens. Hitchens never puts forward a coherent rebuttal to any of Craigs points, yet still he supposedly won.

    An example of one of the top comments. "It's the trembling evident Craig's voice throughout the cross-examination section that's the real clincher. Not only did Hitchen's wipe the floor with Craig.....but he probably did it with the best part of a bottle of JW black label and Perrier inside him !"

    This was the worst performance that I have seen against the Prof and in no way did Hitchens "Wipe the floor with him"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    philologos wrote: »
    The argument he makes in the debate Sam Harris in respect to the objective grounding for morality is excellent. It was made by many many others before Craig, for example C.S Lewis makes it in his Mere Christianity. I've yet to find a decent atheist response which deals with this, on or off of boards.ie.
    I probably should acquaint myself with some of the source material, but I'd be surprised with an atheist trying to make an argument for an objective grounding for morality. I'd expect our contention would have to be to agree that, without a deity, no objective morality exists.

    Its just, with no consensus over which deity is the real one, theists don't really have an objective morality either. They can only subjectively assert that their morality is the true, objective one.

    All that I've posted may be irrelevant - but I find the thread somewhat short on links to where this individual's argument(s) might be set out. I'd suspect they must end up where all such arguments must end up - even if we accept the proposition that the universe has some cause, there's absolutely nothing to link that proposition to any human religion.

    Now, I may be misjudging the situation. If this individual's contention is simply that people like Dawkins overstate their case, and don't understand why many choose to follow a religion, then he's probably right. If he's saying he has a line of argument that proves beyond reasonable doubt that his brand of religion is the right one, I'd suspect he's not.

    Sorry to sound so lazy (I just am on these matters), but is there some quick source that would enable someone to judge if there's any point in taking an interest in this professor's work?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    philologos wrote: »
    Let's make it clearer then, I wasn't sure that a God existed, and I didn't live as if one existed and had any real role in respect to my life. You can decide which category that fits into. The reality is that these arguments have helped non-believers come to Christ. I don't believe these arguments have primacy over the Bible though in convicting people to accept Jesus as their Lord, but they certainly help.

    How you lived is immaterial, the fact is you were not sure whether God existed or not. But were open to be convinced either way perhaps, but I suspect (correct me if I am wrong) that you were predisposed to believe.

    I am utterly convinced God does not exist - ergo I am an atheist.

    Would you class us both (you back then obviously) as 'unbelievers'? That's quite confusing if so - it would be more precise to say you were an 'unsure' but I was/am 'sure'.

    Craig's arguments do not convince me. I find he is all smart aleck tactics but little substance. It would appear my fellow atheists posting here feel the same way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Most people don't respond to Craig because he speaks complete gibberish and believes Atheists aren't capable of being moral (hah).

    Please show me one quote where Craig states that atheists are incapable of being moral. Go on! Just the one will do.

    Why I ask is that any time I have heard Craig talk about morality he has been at pains to explain that atheists can be kind, caring and wonderfully moral individuals. In other words, he has said exactly the opposite of what you have claimed.

    In fact, what Craig has said is that objective morality can not exist in an amoral universe. Now if there is some flaw in Craig's argument then please explain.

    The question here is not: Must we believe in God in order to live moral lives? I am not claiming that we must. Nor is the question: Can we recognize objective moral values without believing in God? I certainly think that we can. Rather the question is: If God does not exist, do objective moral values exist?

    Craig, 1996 debate


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    King Mob: I've no interest in responding to baseless ad-hominems. If you're more interested in that, then this discussion isn't going to go anywhere.

    Here's the video - in textual form for those who don't want to watch 17 minutes of content in order to respond to the post. Does anyone else see any problems with the argument below. I see quite a few.

    The video doesn't even tackle some of the rudimentary objections to moral subjectivism / moral nihilism. I could just quote C.S Lewis' argument in Mere Christianity which would deal with a number of these points off the bat.
    Problems:
    What they believe about their behaviour not irrelevant to moral assessment.
    Genuinely ignorant of their behaviour - we restrain it and don't call it evil?
    -- Morality being independent of thought clearly doesn't reflect the way we make moral judgements
    -- Idea of evil is only relevant in proportion to an agents understanding
    -- Animals not judged by same standard.

    Non-believers who see anything special about human morality have succumbed to speciesism.
    -- Humans have greater capacity for moral reflection (relevant difference)
    -- Craig: non-moral dimension existed for non-human animals.
    -- Real speciesist is Craig's God.
    -- What do we make of a being that decided only 1 species is morally accountable?
    -- Human child killer - evil, Lion - cub-killer does nothing wrong.
    -- Values - the result of the evaluation process.
    -- Values are what we judge as morally valuable or important.
    -- To say that something is good or evil independently of whether anyone believes it to be so means:
    To say things have unevaluated value becomes unintelligible.
    -- It lacks any practical application.
    -- We may dismiss something which given other information we value. We can't go beyond our range to see how unknown information would change our evaluation.
    -- Unknown values even if they existed would only become relevant at the point of their discovery.
    -- It's far less metaphysically extravagant to say that we then made an evaluation to say that we discovered an unevaluated value.
    -- Given more complete information justifications for certain behaviours will be exposed as false.

    There can be subjective facts:
    -- If you burn your finger it won't be a matter of opinion even if it is subjective.
    -- Mackie: Given specified standards of morality it will be an objective issue as how well any particular specimen measures up to those specified standards.
    -- Choice of standards, still won't be objective, not will it be completely arbitrary.
    -- What we value isn't really random, but it is highly influenced by the type of creature we are.
    -- So we can agree with Craig when he says "99% of people will say there is an objective difference between "torturing a child" and "taking care of it" - these are not morally indifferent acts.
    -- Just because we distinguish these doesn't mean we have to agree with Craig that these behaviours are good or evil independent of what anyone thinks.

    Some defend objective values by claiming that 'Moral value' is a property we detect with a special faculty of moral perception.
    - This is no longer supporting divine existence as the moral argument is claimed to.
    - Only proposing new phenomena for their own independent support.
    - Each has its problems:
    - How can it be shown that someone saying that Q is morally good that they detected a value of good rather than making a subjective evaluation of Q?
    - We can't appeal to consensus. Agreement that Q is good still doesn't tell us that the goodness is a part of Q rather than something we are ascribing.
    - Besides this particular moral argument describes moral agreement as irrelevant (Objective moral values and duties do exist -> Agreement irrelevant).
    - Nor can we appeal to innate tendencies.
    - Even if we have an innate tendency to find Q good doesn't mean that Q has objective goodness.
    - All it would show is that we are innately predisposed to value Q subjectively.
    - We may value life but to go from this to saying that life has objective value is to make the same mistake as going from I find slugs revolting to saying slugs are intrinsically revolting.
    - Falsely projecting our own attitude to the slug.
    - As Mackie notes: We get the notion of something being objectively good or having intrinsic value by reversing the direction of dependence.
    - Wants and demands give rise to the notion of objective values, so instead of seeing a things good based on our desire, we should see our desire based on a things good.

    Saying intuition lets us know what is morally good or bad also needs to be challenged:
    --Weaker claim - Moral intution is a kind of instinctive judgement (can be granted) - it is true that instinctive feelings can lead us to judge actions immoral without conscious reasoning.
    --Empathy for example leads us to quickly apprehend the distress of a child being attacked, but the moral judgement may arrive in our awareness almost instantly.
    --Our brains process information rapidly and its easy to see that having protective instincts came to give us an advantage to survive together on a hostile planet, having useful advantageous instincts isn't evidence that we're accessing objective moral knowledge.
    --We do well to treat our intuitions with more caution than to let them frequently mislead us.
    --*** APPEARANCES of squares moving when they aren't moving as an example of this ** - Hardwired to make a false interpretation.
    --Much that we discover about ourselves and the world is counter intuitive. We tend to care of donate, and when charities provide us a single rather than a mass sample of suffering. In a fascinating study ("Slovic, P. 2007 - Judgment and Decision Making, vol 2, no 2) looks at the "Identifiable Victim" effect. Slovic we're less effected as the number of victims increases and notes the unsettling implications this has for our moral tendencies.

    Sometimes what one intuits as being self-evidently morally bad another intuits to be self-evidently morally netural.
    -- If they each appeal to intuition - this only shows us that they each know that they're right. To make a valid case they need to do more.
    The subjective experience of believing a thing to be so obvious as to require no speculation is not self-guaranteeing. This is especially true with morality with people mistaking feelings for moral knowledge.
    -- While intution may be a useful source for questions, our brain is to error prone to rely on it as an objective source of answers.

    Moving to moral duties: <STOPPED 6:52 will resume later>

    I'll update the post as I watch and note more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Personally I don't understand why someone would debate Craig, but if you do then you have only yourself to blame for appearing like an idiot. Craig's style is as old as the hills. He hasn't altered it in years.

    OP. I think you should check out Craig vs Ehrman.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    philologos wrote: »
    King Mob: I've no interest in responding to baseless ad-hominems. If you're more interested in that, then this discussion isn't going to go anywhere.
    The discussion won't go anywhere if you don't respond to my points.

    You should note that the main thrust of my argument was that whether or not his argument about objective morality stands up, it's irrelevant.
    You don't need to transcribe the video to address my point.

    Arguing that God exists because there must be a basis for objective morality is an appeal to consequence. This is not a valid or honest argument.
    This means that Craig either knows this and doesn't care or doesn't know this and calls into question his credentials.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Here's a fairly comprehensive response to Craig's Moral Argument...

    http://ethicalrealism.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/william-lane-craigs-moral-argument-for-god/
    William Lane Craig argues that intrinsic values (real objective moral value) requires God. We can be nice to each other if God doesn’t exist, but it wouldn’t “really matter.” (You can find his argument in text format here or as a free streaming video here.) He basically argues that we have to either be reductionistic materialists or theists, but reductionistic materialists can’t believe in intrinsic values. We know intrinsic values exist, so we have to be theists (believe in God).

    I have already argued that intrinsic values don’t require God precisely because materalists don’t have to be reductionists. It is possible that the human mind and intrinsic values are an emergent part of the universe. Craig does not say why such a view can be dismissed despite being widely accepted by philosophers. There are contemporary philosophers who believe in intrinsic values and don’t think they require God, and Craig’s argument would not phase these philosophers because they accept irreducible facts. Craig seems to completely disregard the worldview of such contemporary philosophers.

    Craig’s argument is the following:
    1. Either we must be reductionistic materialists or theists.
    2. Reductionistic materialism can’t account for intrinsic values.
    3. Theism can account for intrinsic values.
    4. Intrinsic values exist.
    5. Therefore, God exists.
    Reductionistic materialism is the view that the only real parts of the universe are the smallest material parts (particles and energy). Everything else is an illusion. Intrinsic values are not particles or energy, so intrinsic values (by definition) would be rejected by reductionistic materialists. (Of course, mental events would also have to be rejected by reductionistic materialists, and that seems to be sufficient reason to reject reductionistic materialism.)

    How Plausible is Craig’s Argument?

    I have two major objections against Craig’s argument. One, his argument is a false dilemma. Two, it could be a reductio ad absurdum.

    Objection 1: His argument requires a false dilemma.

    I agree that reductionistic materialists can’t account for intrinsic values, and I agree that intrinsic values exist. Therefore, I agree that we have to reject reductionistic materialism. However, I don’t agree that we “have to be theists.” Why? Craig presents us with a false dilemma. We don’t have only two choices (to be reductionistic materialists or theists). We could be atheistic platonists (people who believe intrinsic values constitute a separate reality), dualists (people who view the mind and body as two different sorts of reality), pluralists (people who think there are multiple sorts of reality), or materialistic emergence theorists (people who think that there is only one reality with multiple irreducible elements). Right now I find some sort of materialistic emergence to be plausible.

    What is materialistic emergence? The view that material conditions give rise to new sorts of reality. The brain isn’t the mind. Instead, the mind exists as an irreducible part of reality that can’t be fully described in non-mental terms. However, the mind exists because of the brain. Additionally, the mind is part of material reality. It isn’t a separate substance or property. I think that intrinsic values exist from some sort of emergence as well.

    Objection 2: He Provides a Reductio ad Aburdum.

    William Lane Craig seems to think that he proved that God exists, but it seems more likely that he proved that one of his premises is false. I find his argument to be a a reductio ad absurdum. The conclusion, “God exists,” is not something anyone has to accept, so one of his premises is almost certainly false. Many people will then say, “Well, I guess intrinsic values don’t exist then,” and reject premise 4. However, I think premise 4 is true and I disagree with premise 1 instead. (I disagree that we either have to be reductionistic materialists or theists.)

    One kind of bad argument: Premises of an argument should be more plausible than the conclusion. We need to start with things that are pretty certain to lead us to a conclusion that is no more plausible than the premises. There is something wrong with an argument if the conclusion is more certain than the premises. For example, “If I am in a dream world, then I can sit on this chair. I am in a dream world. Therefore, I can sit on this chair.” We know I can sit on this chair, but we don’t know I am in a dream world. We find it very implausible that I am currently in a dream world, so such premises don’t seem to give “evidence” of the fact that I can sit on this chair.

    Another kind of bad argument: An even worse mistake for an argument is to provide a conclusion that we find to be more plausibly false than the premises are plausibly true. Plausible premises should lead to somewhat less plausible conclusions, but a bad argument can have seemingly acceptable premises that lead to an implausible conclusion. For example, “Killing is always wrong. If killing is always wrong, then we shouldn’t kill one person to save thousands of lives. Therefore, killing to save thousands of lives is wrong.” Some people would agree with both of the premises, but the conclusion is almost certainly false.

    If an uncertain premise leads to an obviously false conclusion, then we have an example of a “reductio ad absurdum.” These are arguments should be meant to show that an uncertain belief is probably false because it leads to absurd consequences. The belief that killing is always wrong seems to lead to the absurd consequence that killing one person to save thousands of lives is also wrong.

    Craig’s argument seems to be implausible for this reason. The premises might be accepted by some people, but it seems to lead to an absurd consequence. If we are to ever accept an argument for God, then the premises will have to be very close to certainty rather than merely “accepted by some people.”

    Some Additional Constructive Criticism
    Not only is Craig’s argument based on a fallacy, but I believe he uses some questionable methods of persuasion. His arguments might be made to “trick people to convert people to theism” rather than to rationally change people’s mind. (I think Craig is too intelligent and well-informed to use these fallacies on accident.) Consider the following:

    Suppressed Evidence

    To use suppressed evidence is to refuse to mention certain essential factors that could plausibly undermine an argument. We might not want to mention objections to our arguments when those objections might prove us wrong.

    Craig neglects to show that the very people who might disagree with him (e.g. emergence theorists) do exist, and their worldview is considered to be very plausible by the experts. Such a worldview is apparently “not worth mentioning.” Even worse, many philosophers will reject reductionistic materialism and theism as plausible views. (I certainly think that reductionistic materialism is much less plausible than emergence materialism.) Craig assumes that we either have to be reductionist materialists or theists. Those might not even be plausible options. Instead, the more plausible options seem to include Platonism and emergence materialism, for example.

    Moreover, Craig gives a list of “testimonials” from professional philosophers who seem to agree that materialism is incompatible with intrinsic value. For example, he quotes Michael Ruse, a philosopher of science from the University of Guelph, as saying the following:

    The position of the modern evolutionist . . . is that humans have an awareness of morality . . . because such an awareness is of biological worth. Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth . . . . Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says ‘Love they neighbor as thyself,’ they think they are referring above and beyond themselves . . . . Nevertheless, . . . such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction, . . . and any deeper meaning is illusory . . . .

    Obviously he didn’t quote the opinion of professional emergence theorists. This gives the impression that the majority of professional philosophers agree with him. The fact that some philosophers disagree with him is not mentioned at all, and he does not consider any serious objections to his own argument.

    Appeal to Ignorance

    An appeal to ignorance is perfectly blended with suppressed evidence to give us the impression that theism is the only possible foundation for intrinsic values. An appeal to ignorance is the suggestion that “we don’t know how to explain something being true, so it must be false.” However, failing to explain something doesn’t mean it’s false. For example, we didn’t always know how to explain what causes lightning without referring to God, but that doesn’t mean God really does cause lightning.

    Supposedly we are expected to agree that since atheists can’t explain where intrinsic values come from, they have to reject intrinsic values altogether:

    First, if atheism is true, objective moral values do not exist. If God does not exist, then what is the foundation for moral values? More particularly, what is the basis for the value of human beings? If God does not exist, then it is difficult to see any reason to think that human beings are special or that their morality is objectively true. Moreover, why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything? Who or what imposes any moral duties upon us?

    No serious attempt to actually answer the question is ever given. The question is taken to somehow vindicate his position despite the fact that some atheistic philosophers really do try to answer this question.

    Moreover, philosophers don’t have to explain everything just like scientists don’t have to explain everything. Scientists didn’t need to explain the cause of lighting before being able to do so, and we shouldn’t feel the need to explain the cause of intrinsic values before being able to do so.

    Conclusion
    William Lane Craig might have a much better argument that morality requires God elsewhere. Perhaps this argument is just the one meant for the masses rather than for other philosophers. Either way, his use of fallacies seem to lack integrity and I see no reason to think intrinsic values could only exist with God, as I have argued for elsewhere.

    William Lane Craig is a major philosophical figure for many conservative Christians, and many people agree with his arguments, so it is worth our time to figure out where his arguments go wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Midlife Crashes


    Jernal wrote: »
    Personally I don't understand why someone would debate Craig, but if you do then you have only yourself to blame for appearing like an idiot. Craig's style is as old as the hills. He hasn't altered it in years.

    OP. I think you should check out Craig vs Ehrman.

    Completely agree with this. Thank you for actually responding to my question, something no one else has done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    In fact, what Craig has said is that objective morality can not exist in an amoral universe. Now if there is some flaw in Craig's argument then please explain.
    I'd say that much is correct. I think what he's trying to do is build a sort of "have you stopped beating your wife" argument around the disquiet that some might have of agreeing the universe to be amoral.

    I can't say that it's written in the stars that beating your wife is immoral, as I don't contend that there is an objective morality. I can only say that it might not make you happy in the long run.

    So what he's really trying to do (just based on the quote you included) is work backwards from the strong possibility that whomever he's debating with won't want to say "I think wife beating is unpleasant, but there's no natural order to the universe that it offends". Once he's trapped the other guy into saying wife beating is inherently wrong, he's got you. If wife beating does offend some universal morality, then it pretty much does follow that some moral law-giving being is the source of it.

    Its just a nonsense argument, as the only way of establishing a morality to be objective is to demonstrate its base. In other words, you've to demonstrate that the moral law-giving being exists first and then you can demonstrate that wife beating offends the given laws.

    If discussed properly, it would just be a circular argument.

    "How do you know there is a supreme being?"

    "Because we can see the objective morality given by the supreme being."

    "But how to we know this morality is objective?"

    "Because its the one given to us by the supreme being."

    Rinse, repeat as required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    doctoremma wrote: »
    I attacked his debating style. Did you miss the part where I stated it was a 'comedy reference'? By all means, post your own definition of the Gish Gallop and let's see how wrong Urban Dictionary was.

    OK, so you have attacked his style of debating. Well that makes all the difference!

    Now why on earth would I offer a definition of Gish Gallop? I'm not objecting to the definition you used. I'm questioning the value of your posts. Specifically as they appear to me to be noteworthy because of the total absence of substantive argument and your not so novel or kind use of ridicule.


  • Registered Users Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Midlife Crashes


    Craig has a podcast called Reasonable Faith. Each episode is fairly short (15 mins or so) and of varying quality.

    Cheers for this. Just downloaded a few of the podcasts. Really enjoying the ones I have listened to so far.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Cheers for this. Just downloaded a few of the podcasts. Really enjoying the ones I have listened to so far.

    You'll find a shed load of debates here. The site is a fantastic resource in general and well worth checking out. John Lennox would be my personal recommendation. You will also find more stuff from Craig at Unbelievable?, which is a weekly radio show that generally involves Christians and non-Christian in discussion on one topic or another.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Midlife Crashes


    There is a load of debates available here. The site is a fantastic resource in general.

    Brilliant!! Thanks a mil man exactly what I was looking for . So now ye can continue on with this debate.


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