Now that Bank debts are recognised as not being sovereign debt

pugleon · 20-08-2012 04:13PM #1

Why havent we seen any talk from the Government or indeed media on stealth tax removal. Withdrawl of plans for further crippling taxes. Draw down of loans which are back-specific loans from EU/IMF.

Is there something I am missing? I thought the last EU summit statement made it clear that these bank debts are no longer the countries debts?

ardmacha · 20-08-2012 05:18PM

I think you are forgetting that the government is spending more that it collecting, nothing to do with the banks. Hopefully they will raise taxes to a responsible level.

who_me · 20-08-2012 05:26PM

ardmacha wrote: »

I think you are forgetting that the government is spending more that it collecting, nothing to do with the banks. Hopefully they will raise taxes to a responsible level.

You must be the only person around who hopes for more taxes. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd certainly prefer to pay off my own (overdue) debts, than hand the money over to the Government in additional taxes so it can be pissed away in ridiculous pension packages etc.

golden lane · 20-08-2012 05:31PM

the is a gap......and that gap is to to keep the government functioning......that is where the cuts should be made.....

Tea drinker · 20-08-2012 08:27PM

ardmacha wrote: »

I think you are forgetting that the government is spending more that it collecting, nothing to do with the banks. Hopefully they will raise taxes to a responsible level.

They spent 60 billion (so far, so far as we know) on the banks, at least some of which was borrowed and accrues debt as interest.
Very convenient to close the door after the horse has bolted, the whole system looks like a scam. Throw in Libor, laundering terrorist and drug money, faux insurance, faux ratings it would need some conspiracy theory to explain it as a coincidence.

hmmm · 20-08-2012 08:45PM

You can say "they're not our debts" as many times as you want, all that's left is the small problem of getting someone else to accept they are their debts.

Besides which, the EU did not say that bank debt was not a countries debt, there's still two sides to that debate. Most notably, those countries who properly regulated their banks and property markets, and didn't engage in a splurge on the back of an unsustainable boom, are quite rightly saying it's not their problem.

Slydice · 20-08-2012 10:07PM

pugleon wrote: »

Why havent we seen any talk from the Government or indeed media on stealth tax removal. Withdrawl of plans for further crippling taxes. Draw down of loans which are back-specific loans from EU/IMF.

Is there something I am missing? I thought the last EU summit statement made it clear that these bank debts are no longer the countries debts?

cos we're still broke by the "billuns" as I've heard the term called

Chazz Michael Michaels · 20-08-2012 10:11PM

pugleon wrote: »

Why havent we seen any talk from the Government or indeed media on stealth tax removal. Withdrawl of plans for further crippling taxes. Draw down of loans which are back-specific loans from EU/IMF.

Is there something I am missing? I thought the last EU summit statement made it clear that these bank debts are no longer the countries debts?

Because our deficit for 2012 is going to be approx 8.3% of GDP.

That's a lot.

antoobrien · 21-08-2012 10:29AM

pugleon wrote: »

Why havent we seen any talk from the Government or indeed media on stealth tax removal. Withdrawl of plans for further crippling taxes. Draw down of loans which are back-specific loans from EU/IMF.

Is there something I am missing? I thought the last EU summit statement made it clear that these bank debts are no longer the countries debts?

Bank debt was never the main problem, it was merely the final straw. We're still spending far more than money we take in and it will still take 3 more budgets of taxes & cuts to get back to the 3% deficit limit.

Anybody who has been blaming the imposition of extra taxes on having to pay bank debt has been misleading you.

Chazz Michael Michaels · 21-08-2012 10:42AM

See attached sheet for the reason why.

bbam · 21-08-2012 01:36PM

antoobrien wrote: »

Bank debt was never the main problem, it was merely the final straw. We're still spending far more than money we take in and it will still take 3 more budgets of taxes & cuts to get back to the 3% deficit limit.

Anybody who has been blaming the imposition of extra taxes on having to pay bank debt has been misleading you.

I appreciate that we are spending more than we take in. But the thoughts of three more of these austerity budgets is chilling.

Really who wants to live in a state where the standard of living is continually erroded to the point where we are existing rather than living. Personally I feel I'll get bye but I have friends and family members who are against the wall as it is, two more years of tightening our belts will hit many families badly.

Chazz Michael Michaels · 21-08-2012 01:39PM

bbam wrote: »

I appreciate that we are spending more than we take in. But the thoughts of three more of these austerity budgets is chilling.

Really who wants to live in a state where the standard of living is continually erroded to the point where we are existing rather than living. Personally I feel I'll get bye but I have friends and family members who are against the wall as it is, two more years of tightening our belts will hit many families badly.

What do you suggest as an alternative? Bearing in mind that if no further cuts are made, the viability of the state to pay for social welfare, etc, is greatly threatened.

ResearchWill · 21-08-2012 01:43PM

bbam wrote: »

I appreciate that we are spending more than we take in. But the thoughts of three more of these austerity budgets is chilling.

Really who wants to live in a state where the standard of living is continually erroded to the point where we are existing rather than living. Personally I feel I'll get bye but I have friends and family members who are against the wall as it is, two more years of tightening our belts will hit many families badly.

I was watching reeling in the years, last night, it was 1963, one of the issues was "Turnover Tax" now known as VAT. Everyone was up in arms, one guy said "they cant tax us anymore". Remember this was the same year a house containing multiple families colapsed in Dublin, living without indoor plumbing was the norm for many urban and rural people. Yet tax went up and up and funny for the most part we are far better off, funny that.

doc_17 · 21-08-2012 01:46PM

Hopefully if we ever get a proper banking system again they'll slap a nice wee tax on them and put the proceeds into the NPRF to pay back what they received from said fund.

As for options now? Just have to stay the course. Bond yields are dropping slowly, get the deficit down and pray to god nothing else crazy happens.

bbam · 21-08-2012 07:34PM

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

What do you suggest as an alternative? Bearing in mind that if no further cuts are made, the viability of the state to pay for social welfare, etc, is greatly threatened.

Oh, I know its the best course..
Its just a tough one and as ever the poorer and less well off get affected the most.
The only ones shouting any other options are the shinners and the thought of them being in control is scarey.

Sand · 21-08-2012 08:33PM

Paradoxically, Ireland's negotiating position has been weakened by all the perceived good news recently. This means Ireland's call for renegotiation of terms will get the same treatment as Ireland's calls for a deal on the promissory notes back in March - I.E. dumb, loud and slapped down by the ECB with some red faced scrambling to pull some "deal" agreed between the Irish government and itself at the last minute.

Afterall, if Ireland is recovering, if our position is sustainable, and if the news is good and we arrive up saying we need a relaxation of terms, the Finns, the Germans, the Dutch and the Austrians will turn around and say "Why? You're thriving, right?"

I don't think our position has improved other than it being August - the quietest time of the financial year - but the "Green Jersey" negotiating strategy has been horrific right from the start.

Geuze · 22-08-2012 12:50PM

pugleon wrote: »

Why havent we seen any talk from the Government or indeed media on stealth tax removal. Withdrawl of plans for further crippling taxes.

What are "stealth" taxes? Are they hiding in the long grass??

All taxes are proposed by the Govt, approved by the Dail, nothing hidden or stealthy about them........

Crippling?? Taxes in Irl are lower than the EU average.

I know couples on 900-1000 pw paying 10% or less income tax. Where else would it be so low?

Geuze · 22-08-2012 12:54PM

The banking crisis has cost the State 62.8bn, which is sickening.

It's way more than other countries, in terms of % of GDP.

Chazz Michael Michaels · 22-08-2012 12:56PM

Geuze wrote: »

What are "stealth" taxes? Are they hiding in the long grass??

All taxes are proposed by the Govt, approved by the Dail, nothing hidden or stealthy about them........

Crippling?? Taxes in Irl are lower than the EU average.

I know couples on 900-1000 pw paying 10% or less income tax. Where else would it be so low?

This chart is useful (below as % of GDP):

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:5_Breakdown_of_tax_revenue_by_country_and_by_main_tax_categories(percentage_of_GDP).PNG&filetimestamp=20120105113223

liammur · 22-08-2012 01:57PM

ResearchWill wrote: »

I was watching reeling in the years, last night, it was 1963, one of the issues was "Turnover Tax" now known as VAT. Everyone was up in arms, one guy said "they cant tax us anymore". Remember this was the same year a house containing multiple families colapsed in Dublin, living without indoor plumbing was the norm for many urban and rural people. Yet tax went up and up and funny for the most part we are far better off, funny that.

I was watching Reeling in the Years too, I think it was '06. We had Sheehy, Ahern, Cowen, Goggin & Fitzpatrick all talking up the economy, telling us everything was great. They are still heroes to many.

pugleon · 22-08-2012 09:35PM

Geuze wrote: »

What are "stealth" taxes? Are they hiding in the long grass??

All taxes are proposed by the Govt, approved by the Dail, nothing hidden or stealthy about them........

Crippling?? Taxes in Irl are lower than the EU average.

I know couples on 900-1000 pw paying 10% or less income tax. Where else would it be so low?

Stealth is a term someone else made up not me. Non earnings based percentage taxes. Paying a toll. Paying a bin charge. Paying for water. etc etc I imagine this would be an ok definition of stealth taxes since you require one.

It is crippling for people who have lost their jobs, for example some of my family members on the brink of loosing their home during the continued increase in tax and cost of living. Others I know who had to go on three day weeks or less and are struggling to the point of desperation. Thats a nice example and I'm delighted for that couple. But thats not everyone out there, or even a big percentage...

Finally wanted to say to other posts. That the 68bn? pumped into the banks thus far. Im not sure if that includes the majority shareholdings they bought out as well but whatever the final figure is. The EU should be looking at granting the government that money. With the banks having to pay back the loan on that figure with interest. Not that I don’t agree we need cutbacks on spending, especially the civil service and welfare.

It would seem to me that Spain, being in a position of better clout within the EU has got us out of a hole. Forcing EU bank/IMF into a position of these debts being bank-specific. But yet we hear nothing else about it. Where is the reimbursement of the money pumped into the banks if it is indeed bank debt?

Geuze · 24-08-2012 05:55PM

pugleon wrote: »

Stealth is a term someone else made up not me. Non earnings based percentage taxes. Paying a toll. Paying a bin charge. Paying for water. etc etc I imagine this would be an ok definition of stealth taxes since you require one.

Road tolls and bin charges and water charges are all sensible. We need them, more of them.

Plastic bag tax
Motorway tolls
Bin charges
Water charges
Excise duty on fuel
Carbon tax

All good for the env or health, all try to get us to change our behaviour.

High income tax on work is not sensible. Average works paying 52% on the margin is crazy. That should be cut. Too high VAT isn't a good idea. That should be cut.

liammur · 24-08-2012 07:00PM

Geuze wrote: »

Road tolls and bin charges and water charges are all sensible. We need them, more of them.

Plastic bag tax
Motorway tolls
Bin charges
Water charges
Excise duty on fuel
Carbon tax

All good for the env or health, all try to get us to change our behaviour.

High income tax on work is not sensible. Average works paying 52% on the margin is crazy. That should be cut. Too high VAT isn't a good idea. That should be cut.

Nothing should be cut, all taxes need to be increased, and they will be.

Now that Bank debts are recognised as not being sovereign debt

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